170 replies to this topic

[Mister Asterix]

Okay, let me spell this out.

If you change James Bond’s race, you change the story

For the sake of argument I’m going to give the role of James Bond to Adrian Lester.

ADRIAN LESTER IS IAN FLEMING’S JAMES BOND 007
IN
CASINO ROYALE

Awesome actor. Completely capable of playing the character of James Bond in a way that would be race neutral. Could easily sit across the table from Le Chiffre and play a completely believable James Bond at the poker table. Vesper falls in love with him. No problems here. The Miami airport chase. Still would be stunning. Killing Dryden. Sure, that’d be awesome. The foot chase with Mollaka. Yeah, that’d be...



Wait...



Hang on a second...



With Daniel Craig as James Bond, once Mollaka enters the Nambutu Embassy, his James Bond has a choice of go in guns blazing or let Mollaka go.

For Adrian Lester’s James Bond the choice is different. Lester’s Bond’s best bet is to sneak in, kill a guard, take his uniform, and infiltrate. Going in guns blazing is a stupid choice for Lester’s Bond. For Craig’s Bond it is the only choice he has if he wants to get Mollaka.

A simple thing like skin colour has changed the story.

There are hundreds if not thousand of scenarios where changing Bond’s race would change the story.

James Bond in South Africa.
James Bond needs to infiltrate a Neo-Nazi organisation.
James Bond in Harlem.
James Bond needs to blend in in Moscow.
James Bond needs to disguise himself as a Japanese fisherman.
James Bond needs to disguise himself as a credible British genealogist.

Just naming a few. All of them would have to be handled differently if you change Bond’s skin colour.

[Athena007]

Yeah, but its pointless argument either way because Bond is going to be black or from another race in a few years time!

We don't know this for sure.

And yes, it's a pointless argument. So... please avoid anything too heated or this thread will have to be closed and I really don't want to have to do that. Anyone else want to voice some option on this topic: How would you feel if the next actor to play Bond was black?

[QuantumOO7FSolace]

Boys with toy

[Mister E]

Yeah, but its pointless argument either way because Bond is going to be black or from another race in a few years time! And i'd called that evolution and people seriously wanting to take a risk just to see if it works or fails! As i said, it can perished or it can be a good thing but it will never have unanimity because even if the guy from another community portrays Bond perfectly up there, there will still be people critizing even if they within think he is good, they wont say it loud! Specific personality Mr E? Like what? And i didnt say a short Bond, but a black one, maybe it is your own personal little fantasy as seing a shortster llike Devito being Bond, dont think that one willl work! Im sure we are gonna see a black Bond than a Devito in Bond on screen...

You've missed my point obviously. I am not saying Devito should play Bond, I am saying your viewing of Bond is an empty shell that anyone could play. Bond is a hard man with hard vices and carries himself as a tough, conservative, white man. Yes you could easily substitute black in that last sentence but that's if you don't consider how people are.

[Safari Suit]

If a black actor auditions and is the best at being like Bond, and is the right age, and has or can do a British accent, then there's no problem. I don't think that it would hurt ticket sales. Snipes and Murphy have been huge action stars and I always thought that Washington would have made a good Bond if he could do the accent.

Washington did this english film where he put on a pretty convincing accent.

He also made a film called License (yes, license)To Kill!

[dee-bee-five]

Well if Leiter can be black, i dont have a problem and in fact want Bond to be black! We have evolved guys, stop being so closed minded!! Plus, wether you like it or not Bond will be black someday and wont lose its audience: well except the racist people who will see that as an act of sin!

Oh, please don't play the racist card. No-one on this thread so far has shown any indication of being racist. As I said earlier, there are loads of excellent black actors (Indian, Muslim, Chinese actors, too, come to that) who could play James Bond. Whether they should is an entirely different question. I, personally, would be distracted by a black Bond just as much as I would by a white Othello. That doesn't make me racist: a traditionalist, yes, but not racist. But there's cack all wrong with tradition in my book; we discard it at our peril... if it's not necessary to change, it's necessary not to change...(God, I love that line!)

[Safari Suit]

Othello has been played by a white man. Rather successfully too.

[bondrules]

If we are going to let that happen, then let's also do a black Superman, black batman, black indiana jones......let's change the world upside down and kill off these characters that we love

[dee-bee-five]

Othello has been played by a white man. Rather successfully too.

Indeed. But Olivier had to black up to do so and I'm not sure I'd want to see anyone else do that. I've also seen a Lesbian play Henry V. I didn't enjoy it and I rather wished I hadn't.

[Safari Suit]

Othello has been played by a white man. Rather successfully too.

Indeed. But Olivier had to black up to do so and I'm not sure I'd want to see anyone else do that. I've also seen a Lesbian play Henry V. I didn't enjoy it and I rather wished I hadn't.

Anthony Hopkins also played Othello, sans blackface, in Jonathan Miller's version.

[MkB]

If you change James Bond’s race, you change the story

Uh, well, not sure... and if you do... so what? The scripts are not the Bible, they're just movie scripts

With Daniel Craig as James Bond, once Mollaka enters the Nambutu Embassy, his James Bond has a choice of go in guns blazing or let Mollaka go.

For Adrian Lester’s James Bond the choice is different. Lester’s Bond’s best bet is to sneak in, kill a guard, take his uniform, and infiltrate. Going in guns blazing is a stupid choice for Lester’s Bond. For Craig’s Bond it is the only choice he has if he wants to get Mollaka.

I don't see it like this. When you jump over the fence of an embassy, with a gun in your hand, it doesn't matter if you're black or white: discretion is not an option any more. And anyway, taking over an embassy was also a stupid choice for Craig's Bond.

There are hundreds if not thousand of scenarios where changing Bond’s race would change the story.

James Bond in South Africa.
James Bond needs to infiltrate a Neo-Nazi organisation.
James Bond in Harlem.
James Bond needs to blend in Moscow.
James Bond needs to disguise himself as a Japanese fisherman.
James Bond needs to disguise himself as a credible British genealogist.

I don't see those situations as a problem (except maybe the Neo-Nazi thing). A British Black Bond would look as a fish out of water in Harlem almost as much as a White one, IMO (not the same culture, not the same codes, etc.). And once you've made up your mind to accept that Sean Connery is supposed to look like a Japanese fisherman in YOLT, then you're ready for everything And by the way, I don't think a sable British genealogist would be uncredible

On the other hand Mr Asterix, I hear your point about Shaft, but honestly I know strictly nothing about this character, so I have no opinion. I can only speak about James Bond

Anyway, if Bond were to be played by a non Caucasian actor, I'd find more logical if he were of Indian origins (which is more common, given British history). If memory serves, Rudyard Kipling's Kim was son of a Scottish father...

[dee-bee-five]

Othello has been played by a white man. Rather successfully too.

Indeed. But Olivier had to black up to do so and I'm not sure I'd want to see anyone else do that. I've also seen a Lesbian play Henry V. I didn't enjoy it and I rather wished I hadn't.

Anthony Hopkins also played Othello, sans blackface, in Jonathan Miller's version.

Anthony Hopkins is Welsh, so he doesn't count (as they say, disliking the Welsh isn't racism, it's good taste...) And if Jonathan Miller directed it, I'm bound not to have liked it.

[Athena007]

With Daniel Craig as James Bond, once Mollaka enters the Nambutu Embassy, his James Bond has a choice of go in guns blazing or let Mollaka go.

For Adrian Lester’s James Bond the choice is different. Lester’s Bond’s best bet is to sneak in, kill a guard, take his uniform, and infiltrate. Going in guns blazing is a stupid choice for Lester’s Bond. For Craig’s Bond it is the only choice he has if he wants to get Mollaka.

I don't see it like this. When you jump over the fence of an embassy, with a gun in your hand, it doesn't matter if you're black or white: discretion is not an option any more. And anyway, taking over an embassy was also a stupid choice for Craig's Bond.

But... the situation and scrip would still change. Daniel Craig's Bond (white) knew that he had to jump the fence with guns blazing. For Adrian Lester's Bond (black) he could easily jump the fence without gun in hand and find a chap to knock out and snag his cloths.

[Mister Asterix]

If you change James Bond’s race, you change the story

Uh, well, not sure... and if you do... so what? The scripts are not the Bible, they're just movie scripts

The story as much as anything else is the character of James Bond. How the world around him reacts to James Bond and how James Bond reacts to the world around him make his character. Fundamentally change this and you’ve fundamentally changed James Bond.

With Daniel Craig as James Bond, once Mollaka enters the Nambutu Embassy, his James Bond has a choice of go in guns blazing or let Mollaka go.

For Adrian Lester’s James Bond the choice is different. Lester’s Bond’s best bet is to sneak in, kill a guard, take his uniform, and infiltrate. Going in guns blazing is a stupid choice for Lester’s Bond. For Craig’s Bond it is the only choice he has if he wants to get Mollaka.

I don't see it like this. When you jump over the fence of an embassy, with a gun in your hand, it doesn't matter if you're black or white: discretion is not an option any more. And anyway, taking over an embassy was also a stupid choice for Craig's Bond.

Well that’s the point. Lester’s Bond doesn’t need to make that jump over the fence. Craig’s does. Craig’s Bond only had the stupid choice to catch Mollaka. Lester’s Bond would’ve had the option of discretion.

There are hundreds if not thousand of scenarios where changing Bond’s race would change the story.

James Bond in South Africa.
James Bond needs to infiltrate a Neo-Nazi organisation.
James Bond in Harlem.
James Bond needs to blend in Moscow.
James Bond needs to disguise himself as a Japanese fisherman.
James Bond needs to disguise himself as a credible British genealogist.

I don't see those situations as a problem (except maybe the Neo-Nazi thing). A British Black Bond would look as a fish out of water in Harlem almost as much as a White one, IMO (not the same culture, not the same codes, etc.). And once you've made up your mind to accept that Sean Connery is supposed to look like a Japanese fisherman in YOLT, then you're ready for everything And by the way, I don't think a sable British genealogist would be uncredible

Again we’re changing things. A black Bond does not have to look a fish out of water in Harlem. A white Bond does. I’d accept Connery’s Japanese fisherman over Lester’s. (But then Colin Salmon might be better than either.) But then I was thinking of Fleming’s Bond on screen. And would Blofeld accepted a sable British genealogist?

But again we’re talking about changing things. These things all change the story of James Bond and therefore are changing James Bond.

On the other hand Mr Asterix, I hear your point about Shaft, but honestly I know strictly nothing about this character, so I have no opinion. I can only speak about James Bond

Honestly, Shaft’s character is much more shaped by his race, but that doesn’t mean James Bond’s character is not.

Anyway, if Bond were to be played by a non Caucasian actor, I'd find more logical if he were of Indian origins (which is more common, given British history). If memory serves, Rudyard Kipling's Kim was son of a Scottish father...

...Octopussy...

[bondrules]

With Daniel Craig as James Bond, once Mollaka enters the Nambutu Embassy, his James Bond has a choice of go in guns blazing or let Mollaka go.

For Adrian Lester’s James Bond the choice is different. Lester’s Bond’s best bet is to sneak in, kill a guard, take his uniform, and infiltrate. Going in guns blazing is a stupid choice for Lester’s Bond. For Craig’s Bond it is the only choice he has if he wants to get Mollaka.

I don't see it like this. When you jump over the fence of an embassy, with a gun in your hand, it doesn't matter if you're black or white: discretion is not an option any more. And anyway, taking over an embassy was also a stupid choice for Craig's Bond.

But... the situation and scrip would still change. Daniel Craig's Bond (white) knew that he had to jump the fence with guns blazing. For Adrian Lester's Bond (black) he could easily jump the fence without gun in hand and find a chap to knock out and snag his cloths.

Also, would all the bond girls be black? They would have to be

It would not be believable to have non-black women from all walks of life to fall for a black bond, no matter how big his gun might me

[james st.john smythe]

i would boycott bond if he was played by a black man or if they turned him into a gay

[Mister Asterix]

Also, would all the bond girls be black? They would have to be

It would not be believable to have non-black women from all walks of life to fall for a black bond, no matter how big his gun might me

That’s a bit ridiculous. All the Bond girls aren’t white.

[MkB]

Also, would all the bond girls be black? They would have to be

It would not be believable to have non-black women from all walks of life to fall for a black bond, no matter how big his gun might me

Note to the mods: would it be possible to add a "dropped jaw" smiley?

Where's Jim? I'd like to get his opinion.

IMO, he's laughing so hard he can't get his fingers to type



On a more serious note ('cause the above wasn't serious, was it?), I totally agree with you about the Fleming Bond, Mr Asterix: there just couldn't be a Black Fleming Bond in the 50s / 60s, and if you want to do period Bond, you just can't cast a Black actor.
But I see the film franchise as a different object from the literary Bond. I want the franchise to be set in a contemporary world, with contemporary rules, and that's why I wouldn't mind.

[bondrules]

Also, would all the bond girls be black? They would have to be

It would not be believable to have non-black women from all walks of life to fall for a black bond, no matter how big his gun might me

That’s a bit ridiculous. All the Bond girls aren’t white.

That is correct, the difference being that bond being white is no problem to attract females from other races, but it would not work if he wasn't...IMHO

[Athena007]

Also, would all the bond girls be black? They would have to be.

It would not be believable to have non-black women from all walks of life to fall for a black bond, no matter how big his gun might me

That’s a bit ridiculous. All the Bond girls aren’t white.

Yeah... that IS ridiculous. I mean I could see perhaps the majority of the BondGirls being black as the majority of the BondGirls have been white, but there are plenty of Black, Asian, Spanish BondGirls in 007 history as well. So no, all BondGirls would not have to be black... it would be a mixture just as it is and just as it was.

That is correct, the difference being that bond being white is no problem to attract females from other races, but it would not work if he wasn't...IMHO

So you are saying that white woman are not attracted to anyone who is not white? This is true of some white women. Just as it's true that some black women are not attracted to anyone who's not black. (which doesn't make either racist, it's just preference) BUT then there are women who are attracted to men outside of their race. So basically you are "generalizing."

[Bondian]

If Bond was ever going to get a change of skin colour, it would have been done by now.

We've had a black 'Othello', and it worked. But for Bond I wouldn't be against it as long we had the right actor and script.

[Athena007]

We've had a black 'Othello', and it worked.

Um... Othello IS black. That's why it worked. heehee

[Shot Your Bolt]

One day, the best actor for the job to play Bond is gonna be black, and this thread will be funny. Maybe in 25 years or something.

Hell, I sure 25 years ago nobody thought we've a non-white President of the United States, but that just might come to past this year.

[Mister E]

Hell, I sure 25 years ago nobody thought we've a non-white President of the United States, but that just might come to past this year.

I knew somebody was going bring this up eventually and the comparison is invalid. The President is strictly a title and it's not another character, Bond is.

[Bondian]

We've had a black 'Othello', and it worked.

Um... Othello IS black. That's why it worked. heehee

I don't know. Hardly know the guy.

[Athena007]

I'm wondering if those of you who are all gung-ho about having a black Bond would be just as gung-ho about a Mexican/Spanish, Asian, Indian, Mediterranean or Arab Bond? Because after all you're saying that Bond being "white" is not part of what defines him as Bond (when myself and a number of other people see that as part of who he is).

[bondrules]

Not only white, but the character has to come from the UK ...sure the human being playing the part could be from anywhere, as long as he can do a decent accent and look like he could be from England...

Imagine a Hungarian bond (I don't mean one playing British, I mean anyone playing a Hungarian spy)? No offense, but I don't think that Hungary and the UK are the same, politically, historically, financially, etc.

Bottom line is, if you make these changes, it will no longer be Bond....it will be someone else

Edited by bondrules, 08 October 2008 - 09:37 PM.

[Bondian]

How about conjoined twins as Bond. Would make a great double agent.

[Mister Asterix]

Hell, I sure 25 years ago nobody thought we've a non-white President of the United States, but that just might come to past this year.

The President of the United States can be black. Abraham Lincoln cannot.

And I, for one, thought 25 years ago that someday we’d have a black and/or woman President. But that has nothing to do with changing the character of James Bond.

[MkB]

I'm wondering if those of you who are all gung-ho about having a black Bond would be just as gung-ho about a Mexican/Spanish, Asian, Indian, Mediterranean or Arab Bond? Because after all you're saying that Bond being "white" is not part of what defines him as Bond (when myself and a number of other people see that as part of who he is).

That's an interesting question: I'm under the impression that the question about having precisely a black actor playing Bond is more influenced by the US culture / cinema than the UK one. As I said above, it would certainly be more "statistically logical" for a non Caucasian British Bond to be of Indian origin.
That said, again, I want a British (or credible as British) good looking guy with charisma playing Bond. I'm not really gung-ho about this guy being non Caucasian, but I wouldn't mind, since to me it's not what defines the character (being British is).