210 replies to this topic

[zencat]

Brosnan's films suffer greatly in comparison to Casino Royale (and, I suspect, QOS). So Brosnan suffers as a consequence. And I think there's still the residue of how badly Brosnan went out -- his public complaints about the produces not calling him, etc. That did nothing but boomerang on Brozzo. No one want to hear a millionaire movie star complain. And even though it's not his doing, the wreckage wrought by the Craignotbond contingent in Brosnan's name I think also taints how some fans feel about him. I know I'm tainted.

But I think it will fade and Brosnan's era will be enjoyed for what it is. He was a great Bond. But his movies are not very good, and that will always be a factor.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Being realistic doesn't automatically make it better. Goldeneye is just as brilliant as Casino Royale.

Agreed, but being credible (not necessary realistic) make it bettter a series like Bond which isn't about sci-fi or a superheroe. CR is not only credible in plot, but about acting too, while GE is far from being believable.

[jaguar007]

I thnk thats why TSWLM and GE consistently rank above more "serious" movies like FRWL.

I can see why people wouldn't like Brosnan films, but I still find it funny that people hate the guy. It wasn't his faults he got some of the worst writing in the series post-Goldeneye.

(jaw hits floor) WHO WOULD ACTUALLY RATE GE ABOVE FRWL????? SACRELIGE!


The only reason GE would rate above FRWL in a public poll would be because most of the people voting would be younger and GE would be fresh in the memory (and the voters would probably have never seen FRWL). I think if you took a poll from people who had seen both movies recently, FRWL would win hands down (unless they only polled 15 years old and under).


I know many people blame the Brosnan bashing on poor scripts and directing, but Dalton did not have the best scripts and direction either, but IMO he elevated the movies. TLD script wise is not necessarily one of the best (GEs is probably better), but Dalton so sold me on Bond in that movie that TLD ranks in my top 5 films. Brosnan never really sold me like Dalton did.

[Mister E]

GE a masterpiece, every scene is perfect, god thats funny, I couldn't say that about any Bond film.

I know. GE is a dated 90's action film with an okay plot and Brosnan at his most wooden.

[Mister E]

It´s interesting you say that because Dalton´s LTK was practically the final nail in the Coffin for the Bond series so much so that MGM refused to make another Bond film with Dalton and forced Cubby´s hand in changing actor and thank god they did.Even Dalton went as far and said that he didn´t think that a Bond movie would be made after LTK because he knew the writing was on the wall that nobody liked him....studio,the puplic and the only one who stood by him was Cubby...

Love him or Loath him Pierce Brosnan saved the Bond Franchise.With No Brosnan there would never had been Daniel Craig....

Yeah uh, that's all bull . The real story is EON and MGM/UA was bogged down in legal problems, hence the 5 year delay. Timothy Dalton said in 1993 that Micheal France was writting the screen play for the next Bond film and filming would begin Janurary or Feburary 1994. Dalton got sick of waiting and resigned in April of 1994.

I quite agree. Pity Eon lost its nerve, though I liked Arnold's work on CR.

Serra repeated himself alot in that score and basically ripped off what he did in The Professional. I always thought his score just never worked for the film at all. For example, he played this sad, sappy music during the Casino scene in Monte Carlo and obnoxious and overly dark music when the Tiger helicopter was jacked up.

[Shot Your Bolt]

I thnk thats why TSWLM and GE consistently rank above more "serious" movies like FRWL.

I can see why people wouldn't like Brosnan films, but I still find it funny that people hate the guy. It wasn't his faults he got some of the worst writing in the series post-Goldeneye.

(jaw hits floor) WHO WOULD ACTUALLY RATE GE ABOVE FRWL????? SACRELIGE!


The only reason GE would rate above FRWL in a public poll would be because most of the people voting would be younger and GE would be fresh in the memory (and the voters would probably have never seen FRWL). I think if you took a poll from people who had seen both movies recently, FRWL would win hands down (unless they only polled 15 years old and under).

OMG SOMEONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION THEN ME OH NOES!!11

FRWL isn't BAD by any means.

Sean Connery - One of his best performances, and in case you didn't know he will always be my fave Bond(unless Craig keeps this up)
Red Grant - 3rd best henchmen ever after Oddjob and TSWLM Jaws
Train scenes - pretty much gold
Grant/Bond conversation + fight - best Bond scene ever made
SPECTRE Island - I can't believe they didn't show more of this, that place was great
The best version of Blofeld

THAT said, for a good 40 minutes are so it feels like a travel log, where Bond kinda walks around, the Bond music playing in the most random places(checking his bedroom? HOW EXCITING AND SUSPENSEFUL! HIT THE BOND THEME!), and Red Grant/Random spy with glasses walks around too. Bond FINALLY meets Titaina like 55 minutes into the movie and then it starts getting interesting. The train scenes onward are great, although I still laugh at the whole helicopter scene.

Again, not a bad movie, but I don't find myself going back to it very often. I much prefer Dr. No/Goldfinger when I'm in the mood for Connery movie.

[Mister E]

THAT said, for a good 40 minutes are so it feels like a travel log, where Bond kinda walks around, the Bond music playing in the most random places(checking his bedroom? HOW EXCITING AND SUSPENSEFUL! HIT THE BOND THEME!), and Red Grant/Random spy with glasses walks around too. Bond FINALLY meets Titaina like 55 minutes into the movie and then it starts getting interesting. The train scenes onward are great, although I still laugh at the whole helicopter scene.

I'll only give you the Bond music playing in random places but that's it. If you were paying attention, a plot was unfolding.

[Shot Your Bolt]

THAT said, for a good 40 minutes are so it feels like a travel log, where Bond kinda walks around, the Bond music playing in the most random places(checking his bedroom? HOW EXCITING AND SUSPENSEFUL! HIT THE BOND THEME!), and Red Grant/Random spy with glasses walks around too. Bond FINALLY meets Titaina like 55 minutes into the movie and then it starts getting interesting. The train scenes onward are great, although I still laugh at the whole helicopter scene.

I'll only give you the Bond music playing in random places but that's it. If you were paying attention, a plot was unfolding.

Well Mister E, it appears we love the same things(Lupin/Bond) but don't agree with the specifics. You think Goldeneye is a generic action movie, I think FRWL is slow and kinda overrated. Agree to disagree.

[jaguar007]

THAT said, for a good 40 minutes are so it feels like a travel log, where Bond kinda walks around, the Bond music playing in the most random places(checking his bedroom? HOW EXCITING AND SUSPENSEFUL! HIT THE BOND THEME!), and Red Grant/Random spy with glasses walks around too. Bond FINALLY meets Titaina like 55 minutes into the movie and then it starts getting interesting. The train scenes onward are great, although I still laugh at the whole helicopter scene.

I'll only give you the Bond music playing in random places but that's it. If you were paying attention, a plot was unfolding.

Well Mister E, it appears we love the same things(Lupin/Bond) but don't agree with the specifics. You think Goldeneye is a generic action movie, I think FRWL is slow and kinda overrated. Agree to disagree.

Slow and overrated! It had story and character development. I showed my 12 year old nephew TND and DAD since I know FRWL would be too slow for him, but as a grown adult I find it much more interesting than explosion, bang,bang. Also you forgot to mention Rosa Klebb, who in my opinion is the most sinister and creepy villian in the entire Bond series. If you can't tell, FRWL is my favorite Bond movie and one of my top 3 favorite movies of all time (along with North By Northwest and Raiders of the Lost Ark).

[Shot Your Bolt]

Slow and overrated! It had story and character development. I showed my 12 year old nephew TND and DAD since I know FRWL would be too slow for him, but as a grown adult I find it much more interesting than explosion, bang,bang. Also you forgot to mention Rosa Klebb, who in my opinion is the most sinister and creepy villian in the entire Bond series. If you can't tell, FRWL is my favorite Bond movie and one of my top 3 favorite movies of all time (along with North By Northwest and Raiders of the Lost Ark).

The bold part I can agree with, and Raiders is my third fav movie. And Klebb was kinda creepy, she was totally into to Titiana.

I see that FRWL has all these postives, but I still don't love it. I can respect it, but not one of my fav. films

[JimmyBond]

It is a very well shot, acted and scored scene. I love it.

"It's what keeps me alive"
"No, it's what keeps you alone"

The scene is so overlit it looks fake, not to mention Brosnan's "acting." Psh, horrible scene.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Brosnan's films suffer greatly in comparison to Casino Royale (and, I suspect, QOS). So Brosnan suffers as a consequence. And I think there's still the residue of how badly Brosnan went out -- his public complaints about the produces not calling him, etc. That did nothing but boomerang on Brozzo. No one want to hear a millionaire movie star complain. And even though it's not his doing, the wreckage wrought by the Craignotbond contingent in Brosnan's name I think also taints how some fans feel about him. I know I'm tainted.

But I think it will fade and Brosnan's era will be enjoyed for what it is. He was a great Bond. But his movies are not very good, and that will always be a factor.

Excellent observations there, zen.

For me Pierce was a great Bond and a charismatic personality, but only up until he uttered those immortal words: " 'em!" To me he's only a great Bond now who had to work with less than great material, and can't care less about him personally and what he's done since.

[jaguar007]

It is a very well shot, acted and scored scene. I love it.

"It's what keeps me alive"
"No, it's what keeps you alone"

The scene is so overlit it looks fake, not to mention Brosnan's "acting." Psh, horrible scene.

Agreed! Brosnan's delivery of the line was like a "feel sorry for me" teenager. Now I can hear Dalton or Craig saying that line with a bit of force and anger where Natayla would be afraid to talk back to him. THATS how that line should have been delivered.

[bond 16.05.72]

I watched TWINE tonight (it's coming to the end of my Bond marathon) once again Pierce proves me right, whenever he says "the name's Bond James Bond" or "Shaken not stirred" he does like it's some big moment, he can't so it naturally he needs to make it a big thing, he can't just throw it off.

The so called love between him and Elektra is laughable, what the hell is M doing going into the Field, as if the head of MI6 would turn up at an old friends Daughters request, bollocks she would.

God this film is a mess, great swiss banker moment in the PTS is all undone by that over long yawnsome stealth boat chase with that cliched tie adjusting scene. Then it starts and everythng is going smoothly till that god awful ski chase and Arnold's cue is shocking.

God that Garbage (almost a pun there in itself) theme tune is shockingly drab and Arnold's score is atrocious, the only moment which are memeorable are the times he lazily cues up the JB theme. What is that Bond theme on the end credits, who the hell is responsible for that techno bollocks, Arnold by any chance!

I've got DAD to go next and thank god it's CR just before I see QOS.

[Mister E]

I watched TWINE tonight (it's coming to the end of my Bond marathon) once again Pierce proves me right, whenever he says "the name's Bond James Bond" or "Shaken not stirred" he does like it's some big moment, he can't so it naturally he needs to make it a big thing, he can't just throw it off.

Everytime he says either line it's like he's thinking, "I know James Bond says that so I'll say it too".

The so called love between him and Elektra is laughable, what the hell is M doing going into the Field, as if the head of MI6 would turn up at an old friends Daughters request, bollocks she would.

Because M wasn't in the film, a stupid sentimental grandmother was.

[Mister E]

God this film is a mess, great swiss banker moment in the PTS is all undone by that over long yawnsome stealth boat chase with that cliched tie adjusting scene. Then it starts and everythng is going smoothly till that god awful ski chase and Arnold's cue is shocking.

I know. I don't understand why the hell people here love that boat chase so damn much. In general, all the action in TWINE is horribly directed. The ski chase was evern worse, it's like no one was directing and cameras were just put in random places and they hoped something stuck.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

I thnk thats why TSWLM and GE consistently rank above more "serious" movies like FRWL.

I can see why people wouldn't like Brosnan films, but I still find it funny that people hate the guy. It wasn't his faults he got some of the worst writing in the series post-Goldeneye.

(jaw hits floor) WHO WOULD ACTUALLY RATE GE ABOVE FRWL????? SACRELIGE!


The only reason GE would rate above FRWL in a public poll would be because most of the people voting would be younger and GE would be fresh in the memory (and the voters would probably have never seen FRWL). I think if you took a poll from people who had seen both movies recently, FRWL would win hands down (unless they only polled 15 years old and under).


I know many people blame the Brosnan bashing on poor scripts and directing, but Dalton did not have the best scripts and direction either, but IMO he elevated the movies. TLD script wise is not necessarily one of the best (GEs is probably better), but Dalton so sold me on Bond in that movie that TLD ranks in my top 5 films. Brosnan never really sold me like Dalton did.

Yes the generation gap has something to do with it, but I think there's more to it than that. When most people in the general public think Bond, they think gadget-laden cars, girls with stupid names and Bond effortlessly taking control of a situation without ruffling his suit, and something like Goldfinger and The Spy Who loved Me have those in spades. FRWL, not so much. If you speak to a 'lay' person they will probably tell you GE and SWLM are classics and struggle to remember if there are any funny girl names in FRWL. Of course I'm exaggerating a little here.

But then the popularity of the back to basics Casino Royale throws my whole theory out the window...

[Shot Your Bolt]

Well I think just looking at this topic answers the topic title.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

I thnk thats why TSWLM and GE consistently rank above more "serious" movies like FRWL.

I can see why people wouldn't like Brosnan films, but I still find it funny that people hate the guy. It wasn't his faults he got some of the worst writing in the series post-Goldeneye.

(jaw hits floor) WHO WOULD ACTUALLY RATE GE ABOVE FRWL????? SACRELIGE!


The only reason GE would rate above FRWL in a public poll would be because most of the people voting would be younger and GE would be fresh in the memory (and the voters would probably have never seen FRWL). I think if you took a poll from people who had seen both movies recently, FRWL would win hands down (unless they only polled 15 years old and under).


I know many people blame the Brosnan bashing on poor scripts and directing, but Dalton did not have the best scripts and direction either, but IMO he elevated the movies. TLD script wise is not necessarily one of the best (GEs is probably better), but Dalton so sold me on Bond in that movie that TLD ranks in my top 5 films. Brosnan never really sold me like Dalton did.

Yes the generation gap has something to do with it, but I think there's more to it than that. When most people in the general public think Bond, they think gadget-laden cars, girls with stupid names and Bond effortlessly taking control of a situation without ruffling his suit, and something like Goldfinger and The Spy Who loved Me have those in spades. FRWL, not so much. If you speak to a 'lay' person they will probably tell you GE and SWLM are classics and struggle to remember if there are any funny girl names in FRWL. Of course I'm exaggerating a little here.

But then the popularity of the back to basics Casino Royale throws my whole theory out the window...

That's a good point and explains the popularity of Brosnan's Bond among the general public. Brosnan era gives exactly what the average action moviegoer wants and expect from OO7: a sort of superheroe characther, full of cliches, with a too self conscious and artificial performer in the main role.

Brosnan Bond represents just what Hollywood understand of Ian Fleming creation, not the real package, develops by the other actors (even Moore with his tongue and cheek approach).

[broadshoulder]

Lets face it Brosnan was a stop gap till they got their act together, they needed to relaunch the series again after LTK supposed failure and the 6 year hiatus.
Brosnan rightly so got the money in and that we must be grateful for but they were never gonna get the chance to radically over haul the character like MGW obvioulsy wanted to do when his Step Father was alive.

Quoted for truth.MGW always had a penchance for the grittier Fleming Bond.Not really possible with Brozza.

[dinovelvet]

Brosnan's films suffer greatly in comparison to Casino Royale (and, I suspect, QOS). So Brosnan suffers as a consequence. And I think there's still the residue of how badly Brosnan went out -- his public complaints about the produces not calling him, etc. That did nothing but boomerang on Brozzo. No one want to hear a millionaire movie star complain. And even though it's not his doing, the wreckage wrought by the Craignotbond contingent in Brosnan's name I think also taints how some fans feel about him. I know I'm tainted.

But I think it will fade and Brosnan's era will be enjoyed for what it is. He was a great Bond. But his movies are not very good, and that will always be a factor.

Good observations! The whole Craignotbond thing forced a lot of people to take sides in a way, either you were for Craig or for Brosnan, and the after effects of that still linger a bit.

But personally I can't see it getting any better for Broz's Bond in the future. The dust still hasn't settled on his Bond era, but when Craig's tenure is over and a new Bond steps in, the younger fans who are just getting into Bond are going to look at Brosnan's era in the same context as Connery, Laz, Moore, and Dalton, i.e. as "old Bond movies". And as most of Brosnan's films basically rehash stories that were done much better in Connery/Moore movies and are firmly rooted in The 90s (with embarrassingly crude depictions of the internet, self-referential peeling back the layers mumbo jumbo, questionable metrosexual tendencies, etc), I can't see his Bond winning any new fans.

And I always like to throw this in - I think a LOT of Brosnan's popularity is connected with the popularity of the Goldeneye videogame. It was the first ever great console shooter game, practically inventing the concept of multiplayer outside of PCs, and people have that mental connection with Brosnan as the face of that game.

[dee-bee-five]

People make him out to be some dull mannequin when the truth is that Brosnan had lots of charisma and was a very good Bond.

I prefer Dalton and Craig but can't deny that Goldeneye is one of the most exciting action films out there.

I can't believe how underrated Brosnan is now. Goldeneye and Tommorow Never Dies (UNDERRATED) are 2 fantastic Bond films and Brosnan is the best thing in the other 2.

No, it hasn't become absurd. It's always been absurd. Worse, it's become a fad. No-one is suggesting anyone has to regard him as the best Bond (I don't), or even like him as Bond. But there is a kind of knee-jerk silliness amongst some posters about the Brosnan era; they seem to believe that one can only embrace Daniel Craig if one hates Pierce Brosnan. This is tommyrot. Some days I want to watch From Russia With Love, others Moonraker. Bond is a broad church and we are fortunate to like a franchise that can offer so many variations on a theme. For the record, I like all of Brosnan's films and believe TWINE is the most underrated film of the series (as I said on another thread, I'd prefer to watch TWINE over Thunderbore any day).

None of Brosnan's Bonds is a classic the way that OHMSS or CR is, but none of them is an AVTAK or TMWTGG either. And Brosnan certainly never made a Bond film as terrible as NSNA, at least in my opinion.

[dee-bee-five]

I just think the backlash against Brosnan is confusing seeing as pre-Craig he was adored on these boards. I remember back when Die Another Day wa sdeclared to be an amazing Bond film by a large amount of the community, now it's declared to be the worst of the series.

Yes, like the Brosnan-bashing, it's become a tiresome fad. But it will pass. The same thing happened with Moore and Moonraker. They're now back in favour. When the world has tired of the Craig era (as it will - fantastic though he is - because that is the nature of these things), the Brosnan era may well be more fondly remembered. One of the (few) advantages of getting past 40 I've found is that one comes to recognise these fads in popular culture and learns not to take much notice of them...

[CM007]

GE a masterpiece, every scene is perfect, god thats funny, I couldn't say that about any Bond film.

I know. GE is a dated 90's action film with an okay plot and Brosnan at his most wooden.

Please describe the term Wooden.......

That's the thing about Brosnan fans thay always blame everybody else, he wasn't right for the role, he was not the actor he is now, end of story , I guarantee it's the younger fans that love Brosnan the most, I'm pretty sure my generation aren't that impressed.

I was brought up on the Connery era and I am about 10yrs older than you and my Favourite Bond is a certain Mr Pierce Brosnan.All of Brosnan´s Bonds are better that 3 of Connery´s films,all of Moore´s Bond,One of Dalton´s and of course CR.
Daniel Craig is riding the crest of a wave brought on by the popularity of the Bond franchise that was brought about by Brosnan as Bond can´t ye get that into yer thick skulls............

Love him or Loath him Pierce Brosnan saved the Bond Franchise.

Which is quite ironic, considering his films made less profit overall than Dalton's.

Prove it....I dare ya.I have the fiqures ready and waitin

[Royal Dalton]

Love him or Loath him Pierce Brosnan saved the Bond Franchise.

Which is quite ironic, considering his films made less profit overall than Dalton's.

Prove it....I dare ya.I have the fiqures ready and waitin

2005 Sony Bond Franchise Revenue Data Reporting:

Bankable Bonds:


#4

T. Dalton x3.0 Factor

2 Films

Dalton Films Bankable Factor: +4.25

Dalton Films Profit Factor: +1.76

Bankability Index Factor: +3.0


#5

P. Brosnan x2.65 Factor

4 Films

Brosnan Films Bankable Factor: +3.79

Brosnan Films Profit Factor: +1.5

Bankability Index Factor: +2.65


Studio Income Generated Through Box Office Receipts

3. Timothy Dalton $52,200,000 (2 Films)

4. Pierce Brosnan $51,200,000 (4 Films)


Studio Income Generated Per Film Through Box Office Receipts

3. Timothy Dalton $26,100,000

5. Pierce Brosnan $12,800,000


2005 Inflated Studio Income Generated Through Box Office Receipts

4. Timothy Dalton $85,370,000 (2 Films)

5. Pierce Brosnan $64,920,000 (4 Films)


2005 Inflated Studio Income Generated Per Film Through Box Office Receipts

4. Timothy Dalton $42,685,000

6. Pierce Brosnan $16,230,000

[MooreisMore]

I watched TWINE tonight (it's coming to the end of my Bond marathon) once again Pierce proves me right, whenever he says "the name's Bond James Bond" or "Shaken not stirred" he does like it's some big moment, he can't so it naturally he needs to make it a big thing, he can't just throw it off.

This is true of every instance of those lines in the franchise. Yes, even Casino Royale. There is nothing subdued or naturalistic in how Craig introduces himself at the end of CR and it is all the better for it.


I find it very worrying fandom turn on the previous Bond this viciously. Poor Craig is in for it when his predecessor appears (Goldeneye was just as praised as Casino Royale is now merly a few years back).

Edited by MooreisMore, 14 September 2008 - 01:26 PM.

[bond 16.05.72]

I watched TWINE tonight (it's coming to the end of my Bond marathon) once again Pierce proves me right, whenever he says "the name's Bond James Bond" or "Shaken not stirred" he does like it's some big moment, he can't so it naturally he needs to make it a big thing, he can't just throw it off.

This is true of every instance of those lines in the franchise. Yes, even Casino Royale. There is nothing subdued or naturalistic in how Craig introduces himself at the end of CR and it is all the better for it.

Rubbish, Connery does it naturally, Brosnan is the worst for making a big deal about it, it's like he he needs to reafirm it each time he says it.

No really I am Bond!

It's done with that smug attitude as well, Connery's intro in Dr No is done so casually, Craig's is different because it is the closing line of the film, unlike

"I thought only christmas comes once a year"

Must go down in Bond history as one of the worst closing lines, Moore sold those smutty sign offs just about, Pierce comes across like some smutty old man, especially with Denise Richards.

[Loomis]

But there is a kind of knee-jerk silliness amongst some posters about the Brosnan era; they seem to believe that one can only embrace Daniel Craig if one hates Pierce Brosnan. This is tommyrot. Some days I want to watch From Russia With Love, others Moonraker. Bond is a broad church and we are fortunate to like a franchise that can offer so many variations on a theme.

Well said.

[Publius]

I watched TWINE tonight (it's coming to the end of my Bond marathon) once again Pierce proves me right, whenever he says "the name's Bond James Bond" or "Shaken not stirred" he does like it's some big moment, he can't so it naturally he needs to make it a big thing, he can't just throw it off.

This is true of every instance of those lines in the franchise. Yes, even Casino Royale. There is nothing subdued or naturalistic in how Craig introduces himself at the end of CR and it is all the better for it.

Lazenby's delivery on the phone with Draco and Dalton's delivery at the beginning of TLD are both said very naturally and matter-of-factly, IMO.

And Craig's delivery at the end of CR, while it struck me as anything but subdued, seemed like Bond was rubbing it in Mr. White's face. Flowed very logically from the moment. After losing everything and thinking the trail had gone cold, Bond finally tracks this guy down and really savors his bittersweet victory. Cue the events of QoS.

[Shot Your Bolt]

To me, Brosnan is like the "Greatest Hits" Bond. He does everything, but excels at nothing. He's the James Bond logo, if you will. When I look at that logo on the site of the brown "CBn Forums >" up there, I always see Brosnan. Hell, I felt the need to change my avatar just for the occasion. I can freely admit he doesn't bring anything new to the role, but thats fine I love him anyway. Its best to bring nothing then to bring something I hate(Dalton, I'm looking at you).