168 replies to this topic

[dodge]

Think of this as a brother thread to Judo's welcome new "Great Pierce Moments." And an antidote to poor doomed threads such as "He brought nothing new to the role", which have been taken over by Brozza's Pod Peeps. (Let's shorten that to The PP's.)

It's an attempt to balance the ledger. Under Gentle Judo's guidance maybe more of us will come to admit that Pierce did have his great moments. This will be good. But it will be better still if we can reach a balance assessment, refusing to be cowed by stormtrooper tactics used by The PP's. Our goal isn't to trash but to balance the books.

Let's respect all Brozza fans. Sincere, rationale Moore and Dalton fans helped bring me around to the films of those Bonds. And I'm forever grateful. But I can't come around to Brozza until the ledger is balanced.

So...did Brozza have ANY moments in his films where he didn't walk on water? Judo, Plank, Santa, Ace, DoubleNought, 00Twelve: for God's sake, dear friends, tell me you haven't been Podded!

No trollers or PP's here, please.

My starting three:
1) GE: After one of the greatest stunts in all of Bond history, Brozza drops in through the loo ceiling to announce with a wink: "Sorry, I forgot to knock." The line itself, the preening and prissy delivery...I knew then and there this would be a mixed bag. And that this Bond would not be my "cuppa."

2) TND: One horrific moment will live on in infamy as long as the stars shine. I've posted elsewhere on this. But I'm afflicted again with the willies: Bond, escaping from Carver's building, makes his getaway on a dolly--and shows enough leg skin to have fed Henry VIII for a week. Absolutely disgraceful! (Blame the director? I think not. A Bond should know about such things and monitor them carefully. All other Bonds have.)

3) TND: The big dramatic scene with Paris. That didn't work at all for me. Brozza was very much "reading" his lines--and there was none of the loneliness, pain, remorse or unbridled passion that we needed to see.

[JimmyBond]

The whole Stockholm syndrome scene with Elektra. Here's Bond calling Elektra out on being a double, then right after he's done talking to her she tells him it's not true...and he buys it! Never before had I seen Bond second guessing himself like he does here, and it really weakens the character. Of course Brosnan wasnt really playing Bond in TWINE, so it doesnt really matter.

Still, one of the low points of the series.

[SecretAgentFan]

Interesting, how different things can be seen.

Okay, here

[ACE]

With permed hair, pointing at dodge at shrieking!

dodge,

Forget praising Brosnan (most of the threads here manage to do that quite successfully).

But surely this is SUCH a negative thread? It really is the type of thing that puts me off the forums of supposedly James Bond fan sites!
It invites only criticism. Not debate or argument or discussion. But sheer negativity.

Why not post a thread celebrating Moore? Or Dalton? Or Barry Nelson?

I know people don't like cheerleading but one of the reasons I go on these sites is that I happen to be a fan and an enthusiast.

Over the last two decades of my fanhood, the main stream media is always having a pop at Bond/Bond films. When I was younger, the fan community delighted in trashing absolutely everything to do with Bond (in the tail end of the Roger Moore years - it reached an apex with the return of Connery and everyone on Sean's "side" for NSNA). Of course there is and was praise, but a sort of snidey, back-handed praise.

One of my joys of CBn is the fun and enthusiasm. Of course we critique and dislike various aspects of Bond. But when people write wonderful, lengthy pieces on all the aspects of Bond they DON'T like but stay silent on those they do, it makes me wonder why they post here. Ah, but that's just me and my fannish-ness. Maybe we've got to keep punching the thing we profess to love. It's the only thing they understand you know.

But to start a thread inviting a corscurating negativity is always a shame. Sometime back, there was a craze for starting "Does anyone else HATE [insert film title here]...?" For me it got so old. And it was so lazy. I took a Bond film I loved and did a hate thread on it - it was easy and there were many aspects of it I did not like. But, for me, what was the point?

I know, I know, we should not stifle debate and opinion. And good, well considered pops at Brozza (or Sean, Laz, Moore, Craig - BUT NEVER DALTON !) can be fun.

It's just the tenor of the argument erodes the joy. Bond fan sites become like a Beatles Fan mag written by Rolling Stones fans.

So, sorry if I sound as if I got out of the wrong side of the pod this morning, but maybe you've been brainwashed too!

And just to show how easy it is to have a pop, I give Pierce a Brooklyn Stomping, 90 per cent-er!

1 - He slips into a quasi American accent with American-isms. Bond for me can be many things but he should never be American. Sorry if that sounds American-ist (I love America).

2 - His overwrought hand gestures and movements particularly in TWINE

3 - If I hear his publicity patter about watching Goldfinger as a boy in Putney in 1964, one more time, I'm going to go down to Putney High St and spray paint the site of the cinema "BROZZA WAZ ERE".

"The savage review
It left me gasping
But it warms my heart to see that you can do it too..."
Nails In My Feet performed by Crowded House written by Neil Finn

[dodge]

[quote name='SecretAgentFan' post='726386' date='13 April 2007 - 14:32']Interesting, how different things can be seen.

Okay, here

[SecretAgentFan]

Well, since I

[dodge]

Ace, Secret Agent...My point has now been proven. I proposed a brother thread to Judo's, since debate and dialogue are no longer possible about Brozza. Two lists enabling me and others to compare the good and bad moments. That was all.

But, clearly, it is not to be. Here's manly Secret Agent, from many miles away, behind the safety of his keyboard, asking me once again if I have sexual. No, Jack, I do not. I have issues with Bonds who look like hicks in the middle of a chase.

Ace, this was not one of your shining moments.

Brozza can't be criticized. I'm dealing with the totally Podded. Goodbye.

[ACE]

Ace, this was not one of your shining moments.

Brozza can't be criticized. I'm dealing with the totally Podded. Goodbye.

Sorry dodge.

Did you read my post?

Of course Brozza can be criticized - I think this site is testimony enough.

And you can and do start any thread you want. No one is stifling you.
The thread does not invite debate and dialogue. Only, by definition, "no-nos".

I merely voiced my opinion above. An opinion about Bond which is the significant minority looking at sites in general. I'm the one who has not been podded.

Criticise all you want. I was just hoping that it could be in context.

Judo Chop's thread was a reaction to all the Brosnan bashing.

Come on, put your back into it, dodge. I'm sure you can come up with more negative things about Brosnan. Only 3 so far?

I'll help you out

1 - The tie adjusting underwater (unscripted or directed). In GE it was funny and in context. In TWINE, this nonsensical ad-lib was just lazy.

2 - Brozz holding his belly in, shirtless, speaking to M on the boat in DAD. I can't remember who posted that he's the only person who goes into a North Korean jail for 14 months and emerges chubbier than when he first went in!

3 - His stubble. I know this was Lindy Hemming's decision to toughen him up in GE but Bond should have a good shave. Thank heavens for the Phillishave deal.

(Come on dodge, join me in "Singin' In The Rain" while I kick the bloated old man Brosnan. Bring your bowler hat! )

Hey, dodge. Come on man. See I'm joining in. BOOF! there you go Brozza!

[SecretAgentFan]

Aw, c

[JimmyBond]

I do know Brosnan went to Fierstien (during the writing of TWINE) and asked the screenwriter to give him more "dramatic" scenes he can play. Does this mean Fierstien came up with the Stockholm syndrome scene? Of course not, but it does show Brosnan was behind some of the things Bond got to do in TWINE. Incidentally, he invited Fierstien to come in when Dana Stevens draft had built up the female roles but left Bond alone.

The idea of the scene itself is sound, but the execution just doesnt work for me.

[Hergersheimer]

Anyone who read my massive post on the "great Pierce moments" thread knows that I found alot to love about his portrayal. However, I can acknowledge a few things that didn't work for me.

Goldeneye
- My least favorite Broz performance, and I think that's why I don't like the film too much. I can't pick specific moments, but it seems as though he's trying too hard to be confident the whole time. It's fine, as he was just warming up.

Tomorrow Never Dies
- I've always HATED how he goes "whoooooooooa.... whoaaaaaaaa!" while falling down the Carver banner. The Bond I know is cool and confident in those extreme situations.
- In the stealth ship gun battle, firing his sub-machinegun sideways. This isn't The Matrix, etc. I'm sure you've been trained to fire a gun properly.

The World Is Not Enough
- His "Russian" accent that isn't very good to begin with and fades in and out. He'd be dead before they had their new sneakers on.
- "I knew you couldn't shoulder the responsibility." Brozza sound effects! "Gah, gosh, geeesh, shhhhh...." Bond should hold in the pain when in the presence of his rival, if anything a slight grunt or wince.
- After Bond shoots Elektra, here's what I picture happening in my head because I think it would be perfect that way. Bond fires, looks at her corpse. "I never miss." Looks at M without saying a word, turns and dives. No leaning over her! That's too emotional.

Die Another Day
- The entire scene with M aboard the hospital ship always makes me cringe. It's really melodramatic. Specifically, "Along with my freedom?"
- Apparently between TWINE and DAD Pierce developed a PansyRun ™. Running to Graves' ice jet boat thing it looks like he has a stick up his bum.
- After rescuing Jinx from the ice palace, "come on, come on, the cold kept you alive" and "what took me so long" come off as really sappy. I don't mind Bond emotion, but only when there's a solid emotional investment (see: the death of Vesper).
- "Especially when you're bad." My God. You play Bond! You can refuse to say something so stupid/ridiculous.

As a whole, these are relatively minor quibbles in the grand scheme of things. For me, the positives far outweigh the negatives.

[Hergersheimer]

1 - He slips into a quasi American accent with American-isms. Bond for me can be many things but he should never be American. Sorry if that sounds American-ist (I love America).

This is interesting to me, something I've never noticed (as an American). Do you have any examples?

[Royal Dalton]

Yeah, when he says "Bond. James Bond" in GoldenEye, for one.

[jaguar007]

How about in TND when he is in Wai Lin's "pad" and he puts his hand on the dragon statue as it spits fire. Brosnan gives out a little yelp that is much more Remington Steele than James Bond.

To be fair and balance it out, he is great during the Dr. kaufman scene from the same film (although it it VIncent SChiavelli really makes that scene work).

[JLaidlaw]

Have to agree with ACE, this thread started with the 'No Trollers or PPs' and continues 'Brozza can't be criticized. I'm dealing with the totally Podded. Goodbye' which is not only quite an offensive thing to say, but denies certain people their opinions, which is the one thing which it is wrong to do on an open messageboard. There are granted a few people who think Brosnan can do no wrong, but there are just as many, if not more people who hate the guy. The difference is that the Brosnan fans don't tell other people their opinions are wrong and have no value. I am sick to death of first the Craig haters, and now the Brosnan haters, telling other people that they don't know or respect what Bond is, and attempting to hold a monopoly of truth on fandom, and phrases like 'You're Podding Pal' merely prove that you are edging on being on of these people.

I agree that Brosnan, like any Bond can be criticised, in fact, he's made easily the most criticised (and worst) film in the canon, but it's when you start hiding hideous invective behind the veil of balanced debate ('an attempt to balance the ledger' indeed) that I must take issue with you. I wouldn't mind a 'Brosnan's best and worst moments' thread if done in a fun way but the opening comment makes it quite clear that this is a thread set up by someone in order to sneer and bully.

I totally rebuke any suggestion that I have been 'podded', incidentally an expression I am not familiar with, I'm merely saying I wish for open debate and a bit of fun, and not sly abuse dressed up as such.

[WhiteKnight2000]

This is just another thinly veiled bashing thread isn't it..

[rogermoore007]

ACE wins again. I don't have to even say anything, completely 100% agree

Edited by rogermoore007, 13 April 2007 - 07:26 PM.

[00Twelve]

I don't think the original intent was to bash, per say, but the advent of 5 or 6 "Broz was still a great Bond!" threads was a little OTT I think, and dodge was just trying to start a thread where people could list their criticisms in a civilized manner, but alas, people will always remain people, no matter what intentions may have been.

Certainly the other Bonds have had their fair share of just as much criticism as Pierce. Easily so, IMO.

[Mister Asterix]

This is just another thinly veiled bashing thread isn't it..

I must really be missing it,; where is the veil?



And I have absolutely no idea what ‘podded’ means.

[JimmyBond]

[quote name='WhiteKnight2000' post='726490' date='13 April 2007 - 14:22']This is just another thinly veiled bashing thread isn't it..[/quote]

At least some of us are making the most out of it and turning it into a discussion thread. Sorry you arent willing to do the same.


[quote name='Mister Asterix' post='726501' date='13 April 2007 - 14:45'][mra]And I have absolutely no idea what

[Hergersheimer]

At least some of us are making the most out of it and turning it into a discussion thread.

Quite right, JimmyBond. It is possible to express opinion on both things you like and don't like without falling polarizingly to either extreme. Some of us have posted in both the "great Pierce moments" and "no, Brozza no" threads appropriately and without malice.


For the sake of getting slightly back on topic, I was interested to hear that some members observed Pierce speaking with an American accent. As an American, I must not have noticed - anyone else have any examples?

[Harmsway]

The whole Stockholm syndrome scene with Elektra. Here's Bond calling Elektra out on being a double, then right after he's done talking to her she tells him it's not true...and he buys it! Never before had I seen Bond second guessing himself like he does here, and it really weakens the character. Of course Brosnan wasnt really playing Bond in TWINE, so it doesnt really matter.

Still, one of the low points of the series.

I quite agree. It's appalling.

The idea of the scene itself is sound, but the execution just doesnt work for me.

I'm not even sure the idea is so sound. Such a confrontation doesn't feel very Bondian to me... it seems more Bondian to have him waiting the shadows, watching events to see if his suspicions are confirmed (which is what he did in the P&W first draft).

[WhiteKnight2000]

At least some of us are making the most out of it and turning it into a discussion thread.

Quite right, JimmyBond. It is possible to express opinion on both things you like and don't like without falling polarizingly to either extreme. Some of us have posted in both the "great Pierce moments" and "no, Brozza no" threads appropriately and without malice.

So we do at least have an admission of what this thread really is then? It's best not to dwell on the negative. Accentuate the positive.

Anyway..

One thing that I didn't like about Brosnans era as Bond was that he got fired and was never able to make his fifth and final film.

Edited by WhiteKnight2000, 14 April 2007 - 01:11 AM.

[JimmyBond]

Surely you can find a moment that didn't quite add up, I love Casino Royale but I'm quick to point out the many flaws (I percieve it to) have.

[Santa]

At least some of us are making the most out of it and turning it into a discussion thread.

Quite right, JimmyBond. It is possible to express opinion on both things you like and don't like without falling polarizingly to either extreme. Some of us have posted in both the "great Pierce moments" and "no, Brozza no" threads appropriately and without malice.


For the sake of getting slightly back on topic, I was interested to hear that some members observed Pierce speaking with an American accent. As an American, I must not have noticed - anyone else have any examples?

He generally has this strange kind of mid-Atlantic twang, which you often find in Brits (I know, he's Irish blah blah, but you know what I mean) who have lived in the U.S. for a while. Catherine Zeta Jones is the same. I find it very annoying.

[00Twelve]

He generally has this strange kind of mid-Atlantic twang, which you often find in Brits (I know, he's Irish blah blah, but you know what I mean) who have lived in the U.S. for a while. Catherine Zeta Jones is the same. I find it very annoying.

LOL, I don't know why that struck me as funny, except that my mind zeroed in on exactly what you mean. A mid-Atlantic "twang." Very apt description of the American dialects vs. the British.

[Santa]

He generally has this strange kind of mid-Atlantic twang, which you often find in Brits (I know, he's Irish blah blah, but you know what I mean) who have lived in the U.S. for a while. Catherine Zeta Jones is the same. I find it very annoying.

LOL, I don't know why that struck me as funny, except that my mind zeroed in on exactly what you mean. A mid-Atlantic "twang." Very apt description of the American dialects vs. the British.

Well it's not exactly an American accent, it's just not British either.

[00Twelve]

Right, I got what you meant.

[JLaidlaw]

To Hergersheimer and Jimmy Bond, I should just say that I consider most of the posts in this thread to be nothing but tongue in cheek criticism, which is fine. In fact criticism in general is fine. The reason I had a problem with this thread was the presentation that dodge was giving to the thread, trying to 'balance the ledger' at the same time as excluding certain members their opinions. It was cruel.

But, I admit, there is a perfect opportunitty to turn this into a discussion. There seems to be a fad against Brosnan showing pain, or saying 'Woah' or whatever. Personally, I would like Bond showing his pain. I like best the Craig model, where he quite clearly shows his pain and then recovers himself, trying not to let the enemy get to him "No, No, No! ... A Little to the Right". It's a model which most of the Bonds use, Pierce himself does it to an extent when being tortured by Elektra in The World is Not Enough. We should be able to see chinks in Bonds armour, every so often. Like in Octopussy (A film I finally got round to watching) where Roger Moore is being hunted, is cool and calm, until he sees salvation in the tourist boat, and starts to shout "Heeeey! Heeeey!", only to then come back with a witty line "No Madam, I'm with the economy tour". It's similar to the literary Bond, scenes from Casino Royale and Colonel Sun come back to me just like it.

[Harmsway]

It's not that Bond showing pain is bad, it's just that Brosnan did it in a silly/unbelievable way. I don't buy his gasping for a second.