304 replies to this topic

[Loomis]

Well, apart from McClane yet again stumbling upon a major terrorist plot. And I don't think DIE HARD 4.0 has a clever, involving script, exactly. It's meat-and-potatoes, by-the-numbers stuff that just strings together overblown action sequences and tired wisecracks, mixing them with stock characters and a boring villain with a scribbled-on-the-back-of-a-postage-stamp McGuffin of a "scheme". The film builds zero tension, never giving a sense of a nation under siege, or looming catastrophe, and as for plot holes I give you the question: why, when the lights in the tunnel go out, don't the drivers the villain intends to crash into McClane switch on their headlamps? Or: why is McClane carrying so much weaponry when he goes to pick up Justin Long? There are unanswered questions in ULTIMATUM, and probably larger ones (although I forgive them because I find that the film works so well in what it sets out to do, which is to be an edge-of-seat action thriller), but DIE HARD 4.0 ain't exactly a masterpiece of watertight or intelligent scripting.

And I'm supposed to believe that BOURNE ULTIMATUM was a masterpiece of intelligent screenwriting?

No, you're not, and that's not my point - I've already conceded that ULTIMATUM has unanswered questions (plot holes), and that they're probably larger than those in DIE HARD 4.0. I've always said that the Bourne films have lapses in logic, and feature unbelievable situations, and I'd never say that one of ULTIMATUM's strengths is its script. (For instance, ULTIMATUM suffers from a howlingly blatant and redundant scene of "Explaining Things For Viewers Who Haven't Seen The Earlier Films", namely Bourne's trip to see Marie's brother, which is an unconvincing episode that doesn't propel the story forward one iota and just hangs there like the dead weight it is.)

However, the difference is that ULTIMATUM, as I see it, is so brilliantly-made and well-acted that it rises above a frankly flawed and mediocre screenplay. In other words, the behind-the-camera talent (Greengrass, cinematographer Oliver Wood, composer John Powell, etc.) and actors do a splendid job with a sub-par script. However, with DIE HARD 4.0, not only is the script sub-par - everything else is, too. While both films had less-than-wonderful scripts, one was made with incredible flair and fizzes with tremendous energy, while the other was made with a half-baked air of "Will this do?" and consequently just about passes muster as, at best, a so-so rainy afternoon rental.

But we'll have to disagree on this one (and I know I'm in a minority with my dislike of DIE HARD 4.0., which most people seem to think is pretty good).

[LadySylvia]

However, the difference is that ULTIMATUM, as I see it, is so brilliantly-made and well-acted that it rises above a frankly flawed and mediocre screenplay.

Hmmm . . . I don't think so. It was a pretty good movie, but I don't think it rose above the screenplay.

[marktmurphy]

Hate to beat a dead horse, but the shaky-cam was definitely used to excess. I actually felt a tad nauseous in the first half hour (although that might have been due to the 10-gallon tub of buttered popcorn in my lap). I felt myself consciously thinking that Greengrass was using the shaky-cam to create tension where a REAL director wouldn't have to resort to such (just a little retaliatory jest on behalf of the Bond community for all those barbs Greengrass hurled on the marketing circuit ). I mean, a little shakey-cam goes a long way. But there was just way too much of it in Ultimatum.

Not really sure how that's a 'jest'. You think all of the work he did on constructing this film is 'first rate' and yet say he's not a 'real' director because you let yourself get a bit distracted by the camera movement?

'Jest', as in 'joke'. As in, when I said he's not a REAL director, I was just joking. Which I was doing in retaliation for his heinous, atrocious and cruel defamation of James Bond.*

Little note: jokes are usually funny and/or have a point. If you think you have to explain what a jest is, then you've misunderstood what I was asking: see the above point about jokes being funny.
And yes, you got distracted by the camera technique. It's more like being distracted by good lighting or excellent incidental music in a film- you allowed your attention to be drawn to something that was actually helping the drama; shame you couldn't concentrate more on the important stuff.

[Bon-san]

Hate to beat a dead horse, but the shaky-cam was definitely used to excess. I actually felt a tad nauseous in the first half hour (although that might have been due to the 10-gallon tub of buttered popcorn in my lap). I felt myself consciously thinking that Greengrass was using the shaky-cam to create tension where a REAL director wouldn't have to resort to such (just a little retaliatory jest on behalf of the Bond community for all those barbs Greengrass hurled on the marketing circuit ). I mean, a little shakey-cam goes a long way. But there was just way too much of it in Ultimatum.

Not really sure how that's a 'jest'. You think all of the work he did on constructing this film is 'first rate' and yet say he's not a 'real' director because you let yourself get a bit distracted by the camera movement?

'Jest', as in 'joke'. As in, when I said he's not a REAL director, I was just joking. Which I was doing in retaliation for his heinous, atrocious and cruel defamation of James Bond.*

Little note: jokes are usually funny and/or have a point. If you think you have to explain what a jest is, then you've misunderstood what I was asking: see the above point about jokes being funny.
And yes, you got distracted by the camera technique. It's more like being distracted by good lighting or excellent incidental music in a film- you allowed your attention to be drawn to something that was actually helping the drama; shame you couldn't concentrate more on the important stuff.

Yes, a shame. My jokes aren't funny, and I cannot concentrate on the important stuff.

Oh, well.

Next time I see The Bourne Ultimatum, I'll watch it really carefully with someone who's super-duper intelligent.

[sharpshooter]

Bourne Ultimatum was scintillating. Very good movie. I am still gathering my thoughts on it, and will write something on it later.

[LadySylvia]

Why were the Blackbriar assasins killing American citizens? We know why Treadstone was after Wombosi. We know why Abbott and that Russian oilman wanted both Bourne and the Russian informant in Berlin dead. But why were certain American citizens killed by Blackbriar agents?

[Mike00spy]

Finally saw it. Of course, it is enjoyable, but it still feels like it is lacking something.

Most of these posts have already mentioned the various plot points, so I don't really feel the need to go into them (although the whole Tangier sequence could have been avoided- plot wise).

It is an interesting movie to study for me. The majority opinion is that this is the best Bourne yet. On a technical level, I suppose that is the case. However, this being the third Bourne with the same exact plot as the other two, it doesn't rise to that pedestal for me. How many times can I watch bad CIA agents try to kill Bourne, who escapes via a shaky car chase resembling bumper cars, or escapes from a very crowded place with CIA agents everywhere, or survives a very brutal fist fight. Maybe these scenes are done better than the other two, but I have seen them before from Bourne done in almost the very same way.

We may joke about Bond films being slavish to formula. But this would be like having three consecutive Bond films where nukes are stolen in the same way, and Bond hunts down the villain in three same, but different volcano lairs.

And after all the digs at Bond's character by Greengrass and Damon, I have to wonder if they are smart at all. We know that Bourne signed up for this job. We know that he kills without aking any questions. We know he does it without remorse. We know that he killed an innocent at least once (the wife of the Russian). Okay, he lost his mind and had a change of heart. Good for him.

How does this make him better than Bond? At least Bond is given reasons why to kill, and most of the time its national (world) security at risk.

I don't really need to see another Bourne, despite enjoying the others. I don't need to see a prequel, or some sort of revision where he saves the world.

Edited by Mike00spy, 04 September 2007 - 01:04 PM.

[The Dove]

Saw Bourne Ultimatum for the second time last night... Really love this flick!! Gets better with each viewing!!

[HildebrandRarity]

Why were the Blackbriar assasins killing American citizens? We know why Treadstone was after Wombosi. We know why Abbott and that Russian oilman wanted both Bourne and the Russian informant in Berlin dead. But why were certain American citizens killed by Blackbriar agents?

Because the movie needed a 'bad guy'/'bad guys'?

Seriously, the movie can't stand up to The Bourne Identity or even The Bourne Supremacy in any way shape or form.

It's a hot movie which won't stand the test of time...especially when viewed through a critical eye a couple of years hence when the novelty has worn and the plot holes can no longer be veiled-over by big-screen, shakey-cam epilepsia.

Edited by HildebrandRarity, 04 September 2007 - 05:40 PM.

[Loomis]

How many times can I watch bad CIA agents try to kill Bourne, who escapes via a shaky car chase resembling bumper cars, or escapes from a very crowded place with CIA agents everywhere, or survives a very brutal fist fight.

Personally, I'd welcome a new Bourne film on exactly those lines every couple of years for the rest of my life, each ending with "Extreme Ways", with perhaps a slightly different mix of Moby's track every few years just to keep things fresh.

Then again, I also think Stallone is being premature in calling a halt to the Rocky series with ROCKY BALBOA, so....

[LadySylvia]

Personally, I'd welcome a new Bourne film on exactly those lines every couple of years for the rest of my life, each ending with "Extreme Ways", with perhaps a slightly different mix of Moby's track every few years just to keep things fresh.

One, I hated the version of "Extreme Ways" that ended with ULTIMATUM. And two, I hope that if there is another Bourne movie, it will end with better writing than this last film. And three, it sounds as if you want the BOURNE movies to continue with an established formula. Isn't this what Greengrass and Damon were looking down their noses at Bond for doing? Using an established formula?

[Loomis]

Isn't this what Greengrass and Damon were looking down their noses at Bond for doing? Using an established formula?

I never got that impression - I always thought that their chief gripe against Bond was that he was one of the principal capitalist exploiters of the West, or something like that. Regardless, I do think Bourne now has its own established formula, and I like it. A lot.

[LadySylvia]

Oh God! An established formula for the BOURNE movies. Now that's something to look forward to . . . not.

[Loomis]

Well, I guess it all depends on how much you like ULTIMATUM. I take it from your posts that you don't care for it all that much; however, I myself am a fan of the film, Shakycam and all, and would happily sit through at least a couple more outings in the same style without feeling ripped off.

Bond kept an established formula - which it still hasn't really abandoned - going for decades, and I've always managed to enjoy the films, so I don't complain if other franchises (e.g. Bourne and Rocky) want to try doing the same thing.

At the end of the day, though, I'm a massive, massive Bourne fan (which does not mean that I'm not also a massive, massive Bond fan), so I'd be happy to watch as many trips to the well as they're prepared to make. Gimme that Shakycam! Gimme those shots of Bourne threading his way through crowds! Gimme that "Extreme Ways"! Gimme Pamela Landy in a CIA control room shouting "Find me Jason Bourne, people!"! I love it!

[HildebrandRarity]

Gimme that Shakycam! Gimme those shots of Bourne threading his way through crowds! Gimme that "Extreme Ways"! Gimme Pamela Landy in a CIA control room shouting "Find me Jason Bourne, people!"! I love it!

Thank heavens for small mercies, eh Loomie?

[Tarl_Cabot]

Well, I guess it all depends on how much you like ULTIMATUM. I take it from your posts that you don't care for it all that much; however, I myself am a fan of the film, Shakycam and all, and would happily sit through at least a couple more outings in the same style without feeling ripped off.

Bond kept an established formula - which it still hasn't really abandoned - going for decades, and I've always managed to enjoy the films, so I don't complain if other franchises (e.g. Bourne and Rocky) want to try doing the same thing.

At the end of the day, though, I'm a massive, massive Bourne fan (which does not mean that I'm not also a massive, massive Bond fan), so I'd be happy to watch as many trips to the well as they're prepared to make. Gimme that Shakycam! Gimme those shots of Bourne threading his way through crowds! Gimme that "Extreme Ways"! Gimme Pamela Landy in a CIA control room shouting "Find me Jason Bourne, people!"! I love it!

Me too. I'd welcome Bourne slipping on a banana peel and starting up the cycle all over again! Who's with me?

[LadySylvia]

Well, I guess it all depends on how much you like ULTIMATUM. I take it from your posts that you don't care for it all that much; however, I myself am a fan of the film, Shakycam and all, and would happily sit through at least a couple more outings in the same style without feeling ripped off.

I liked ULTIMATUM. I saw the movie twice. But I don't think it was the best BOURNE movie. In fact, I think it was not as good as the other two. Nor do I think it was the best action movie this summer or better than any BOND movie that I have seen. It has too many flaws for me to consider it as the greatest thing since Swiss cheese. And when I read how many consider ULTIMATUM a great movie or the BOURNE Series as the best trilogy, I cannot help but disagree, roll my eyes in disgust . . . or both.

[marktmurphy]

I liked ULTIMATUM. I saw the movie twice. But I don't think it was the best BOURNE movie.

I'd have to agree; although it had the best action and tension set pieces of the three, the plot was pretty nothing and very simple and it can't really be considered a stand alone movie.

Nor do I think it was the best action movie this summer

I can't think what was better. Unlike Loomis I enjoyed Die Hard 4, but this knocks that into a cocked hat quite easily.

or better than any BOND movie that I have seen.

Hmm. Can't understand that at all; it's clearly a better slice of cinema than Octopussy or A View to a Kill, or quite a few of them!

[Simon]

As promised in an earlier thread, I sat at the back to give the eyes a better chance of capturing the information as it flew by, but I will either have to see it again, or see it on DVD from a further distance.

It was very very good, but I feel, currently, Supremacy was perhaps the slightly better film. Repeated DVD viewings may well change all that.

As for the gut reaction, as this is all that can be applied; I was hoping for more original music as opposed to it being lifted directly from Supremacy; the finale to the car chase was utterly brutal, I wasn't sure about the gimmick of starting this film before the end of the last; the similarities between the looks of the two love interests and their dyed hair, and also the image of Bourne in the water at the end, were perhaps a bit too cute for this sort of film; I will buying the DVD.

Didn't see Die Hard 4 - will probably buy it on DVD for a first viewing.

And totally unrelated, saw V for Vengeance recently and thoroughly enjoyed it - Larry Wackowski has now completed his sex change operation and is now Lana.

(I'm sure there is the possibility for various different threads there but I am sure it will all sort itself out)

[HildebrandRarity]

And totally unrelated, saw V for Vengeance recently and thoroughly enjoyed it

I wish I had seen this during theatrical release. Must have looked quite spectacular on the BIG screen.

[Odd Job]

I saw this a few days ago. All I can say is "Wow". I loved it. I thought that it was the best of the trilogy. Paul Greengrass, Matt Damon et al, should all be give a huge pat on the back. That said, I do hope they leave it there, as a trilogy. Jason Bourne knows who he is now, he can disappear and start again. If they make any more, it'll just be cashing in.

[Simon]

If they make any more, it'll just be cashing in.

And, I'm sure, wholely less entertaining for this knowledge!

What's your stance on cash-cow Bond then?

[Orion]

This series may not have the charm Bond has, but my god is it good. I loved all three and infact have pre-ordered the third despite it not being out till December

[LadySylvia]

Hmm. Can't understand that at all; it's clearly a better slice of cinema than Octopussy or A View to a Kill, or quite a few of them!

What's clear? I think that OCTOPUSSY was better than ULTIMATUM. Although it had some silly moments, I thought it had better writing than the last BOURNE movie.

[Harmsway]

At the end of the day, though, I'm a massive, massive Bourne fan (which does not mean that I'm not also a massive, massive Bond fan), so I'd be happy to watch as many trips to the well as they're prepared to make. Gimme that Shakycam! Gimme those shots of Bourne threading his way through crowds! Gimme that "Extreme Ways"! Gimme Pamela Landy in a CIA control room shouting "Find me Jason Bourne, people!"! I love it!

I'd be happy with more Bourne movies, but I do hope they'd avoid CIA control rooms and a Pamela Landy speech. I'm a bit tired of those elements, at least. But, to be fair, if they deliver the goods on the action scenes and suspenseful story, it doesn't really matter if they're there or not.

Nor do I think it was the best action movie this summer

I can't think what was better. Unlike Loomis I enjoyed Die Hard 4, but this knocks that into a cocked hat quite easily.

Indeed. LIVE FREE OR DIE HARD, while inoffensive entertainment, has nothing on BOURNE ULTIMATUM.

And totally unrelated, saw V for Vengeance recently and thoroughly enjoyed it - Larry Wackowski has now completed his sex change operation and is now Lana.

V FOR VENDETTA is enjoyable enough as a film, though if you've read the graphic novel, it's something of an insult. The graphic novel is art, the film is a popcorn movie with a heavy-handed message.

I think that OCTOPUSSY was better than ULTIMATUM. Although it had some silly moments, I thought it had better writing than the last BOURNE movie.

Perhaps OCTOPUSSY had a better plot, but it has none of the finesse in its execution that ULTIMATUM has. Writing isn't everything, after all.

[Simon]

And totally unrelated, saw V for Vengeance recently ...........

V FOR VENDETTA is enjoyable enough as a film, .......

Of course, Vendetta.

Oh dear.

Thanks for pointing that out sir.

S.

[marktmurphy]

I prefer 'V For Vienetta'. Much tastier.

Hmm. Can't understand that at all; it's clearly a better slice of cinema than Octopussy or A View to a Kill, or quite a few of them!

What's clear? I think that OCTOPUSSY was better than ULTIMATUM. Although it had some silly moments, I thought it had better writing than the last BOURNE movie.

How odd. The plot wasn't superb in Ultimatum, no, and Octopussy's evil plot was pretty decent (although covered in garnish, as is always the way with Bond), but Ultimatum's still a much stronger, exciting and more powerful film. If the best thing you can say about an old Bond film is that the script's good, that's not a good sign. Bond films are rarely about the story.

[stamper]

Matt Damon's Bourne kicks Roger Moore's Bond !

MODERATORS NOTE: Please don't bypass the auto-censor.

[Qwerty]

A small bit of news regarding the possibility of Bourne #4 - http://uk.reuters.co...T26384720071018

[manfromjapan]

THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM (2007)

Directed by Paul Greengrass.

Matt Damon, Julia Stiles, Joan Allen, David Strathairn, Paddy Considine, Albert Finney, Edgar Ramirez, Scott Glenn.

****1/2

Recovering from the events at the climax of THE BOURNE SUPREMACY (2004) in Moscow, Jason Bourne (Matt Damon) is brought back into the fray when a British newspaper reporter (Paddy Considine) reveals new information about his past. The CIA is still out to kill Bourne to protect any secrets about his past missions being revealed, and only Pamela Landy (Joan Allen) and Nicky Parsons (Julia Stiles) are on his side. Meanwhile, Bourne also continues his quest to find out all he can about his past.

THE BOURNE SUPREMACY (2004) was an excellent sequel: it managed to plausibly continue the events of the 2002 Doug Liman-directed film, whilst under the leadership of new director Paul Greengrass (UNITED 93, 2006) break it's own new ground, mainly in the brutal, kinetically edited fight scenes and a lean, direct, concise feel. As end-of-trilogy films go, THE BOURNE SUPREMACY is one of the most superior, since it is probably the best of the series, and manages to resolve all the plot threads satisfactorily, add some new dimensions to our moody hero, whilst also being a thrilling ride to rank against any of the best action films. It's also easier to follow than the second film, and relentlessly paced, although the plot or characterisation is never sacrificed.

The film is clearly in the mould of the second film, being once again directed by Brit film-maker Greengrass, having even more of a documentary style than it's predecessor, giving the film an even more palpable air of urgency and realism, especially in the high-flight car chases and fights. It again doesn't stint on revealing Bourne to be a flawed hero who has committed terrible acts and must live with the consequences. And the viewer once again is very much aware that at any time any major character might die.

But whilst one sensed the new style that was introduced in the previous film was the main concern of the producers last time around, the mostly positive response it received has allowed Greengrass and his team to take things even further. In THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM, the shaky hand-held camera and rapid editing (totalling a thousand cuts apparently) take us right into the world of espionage where important decisions have to made in an instant and fights to the death are messy, nasty and unglamorous.

The conclusion of the film and also the events that occur in Tangier onwards, purposely echo the first film, bringing the series full-circle effectively, and making the series truly feel like one epic film instead of three separate entries. (Interestingly, the last scene from SUPREMACY, where Bourne calls Pamela Landy and finds out his real name, occurs in ULTIMATUM over halfway through the movie, meaning that one could see it's presence in SUPREMACY as a flash-forward!) Damon, perhaps giving his best interpretation of the character in the series (he effectively combines the humanity of the character from the first film with the relentlessness of the character in the second), is still suffering from the injuries he sustained at the climax of SUPREMACY in Moscow at the start of the film, and he looks pained, angry and moody throughout the whole film, which in an era of wisecracking action heroes is a refreshing change that helps to make the film more artistic and believable than most action films. (Although the fact that one of the world's most wanted men can walk through any Passport Control in any country serves the opposite!) The end of the film has cathartic but painful repercussions for the Bourne character.

All in all, a great film, and a great end to the series (although it's likely there will be a fourth). The fact that the film has some fantastic action scenes, some globe-hopping locations (including Moscow, London, Madrid, Tangier and New York) that open up the film, and some intriguing new characters (David Strathairn's murderous Deputy Director; Scott Glenn's CIA chief; Paddy Considine's newspaper reporter; Edgar Ramirez's assassin and Albert Finney's CIA specıalıst, for example) also add to a more full-blooded, involving experience.

Trivia: Tom Stoppard worked on the screenplay uncredited. There are further books in the series, not written by Robert Ludlum, who died in 2001, but by Eric Van Lustbader. The titles are 'The Bourne Legacy' (2004) and 'The Bourne Betrayal' (2007). The film is a very loose adaptation of the 1990 Ludlum novel. Gael Garcia Bernal was originally approached for the role of the assassin Paz, but Edgar Ramirez (DOMINO, 2005) finally won the role. The Moby song 'Extreme Ways' once again appears at the close of the film (in a different version) as it did for the two previous films. The rooftop chase in Tangier brings back memories of the hugely under-rated Timothy Dalton James Bond film THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS (1987).