304 replies to this topic

[OmarB]

I'm sorry but saying Casino Royal exists because of Bourne is ridiculous. Casino Royal came first because it was printed first. I will accept one saying visual cues, action staging and what have you might have been inspired by but Casino Royal as an entity existed many many years before Bourne anything,

Oh, and as for Matt Damon. I've always learned to separate the artist from the art because in many cases artists tend to be reprehensible people who just happen to put out good work. His lashing out at Bond is a ploy to sell his movie, he could have done it in a classier way but trashing one thing to praise another is kinda childish. Robert Ludlum may be Jason Bourne's dad but his spritual grandfather is Ian Fleming and he should respect that.

[yolt13]

Even if the Bourne films did play a part in influencing Barbara Broccoli and Michael Wilson to go the CASINO ROYALE route (and I'd need to hear that from them before I'd buy it), it would be hard to argue that it was the sole reason for doing so. I've already cited two valid and indisputable motives for their decision that had nothing to do with Bourne. But if the success of Jason Bourne's "gritty" adventures was enough to sway the captains of the most powerful cinematic ship in the water, one would have to also assume that another popular fictional spy with the initials JB - one Jack Bauer of the TV phenomenon 24 - also had a hand in that decision.

Frankly, considering the runaway success of DIE ANOTHER DAY, I just don't see the logic in EON's braintrust sitting around saying "Where do we go from here? Maybe we can do Matt Damon's Jason Bourne shtick!" The NFL Super Bowl champions don't watch film of the Pop Warner pee wee league champs to figure out how best to defend their title next season.

[jaguar007]

The only part of Casino Royale that conjures up Bourne is the Madascar scene. All the Bourne talk around CR started early because those were the first scenes shot and the first pictures of CR to get into the public. Rest of the film, Bond dresses and looks very appropriate Bond.

And in this day and age, Bond running around Madascagar in a Safari Suit or white dinner jacket would not work too well.

[Loomis]

Frankly, considering the runaway success of DIE ANOTHER DAY, I just don't see the logic in EON's braintrust sitting around saying "Where do we go from here? Maybe we can do Matt Damon's Jason Bourne shtick!" The NFL Super Bowl champions don't watch film of the Pop Warner pee wee league champs to figure out how best to defend their title next season.

Well, judging by Stateside grosses, THE BOURNE SUPREMACY (with a haul of $176,241,941) was even more of a runaway success than DIE ANOTHER DAY ($160,942,139), and even CASINO ROYALE ($167,445,960). While THE BOURNE IDENTITY grossed "only" $121,661,683, that isn't too far from THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH's take of $126,943,684. (All info courtesy of Box Office Mojo, naturally.)

So, while I have no doubt that 007 makes a lot more "internationally", I don't see how the Bond films are the NFL Super Bowl champions while Bourne is in the Pop Warner pee wee league - seems to me they're more or less in the exact same league, and certainly when it comes to the United States.

Also, I don't understand why many Bond fans seem to bristle at the idea that Bond has taken some inspiration from Bourne, as though that would be a bad thing. And, anyway, it's pretty obvious that Bourne would not exist at all had it not been for Bond, the daddy of 'em all. No one's saying or even suggesting that CASINO ROYALE is some kind of ripoff of THE BOURNE SUPREMACY, but is there any Bourne influence on the Craig era? I think there is, and this is no disgrace to Bond, just as it's no disgrace to Bond that LIVE AND LET DIE took inspiration from SHAFT, that MOONRAKER took inspiration from STAR WARS, and so on. I'd agree that Jack Bauer was another influence on CR, as was BATMAN BEGINS, but I ask again: why do people have a problem with Bond being influenced by things? Just as long as it isn't ripping them off (which it isn't), and as long as the Bond series is making films good enough to rival the best of "the competition" (which it definitely is - much as I love Bourne and 24, I'd say CR is even better, and certainly a superior film to BATMAN BEGINS, although I've always found BB rather overrated), then it's all good, no?

[Johnboy007]

I'm paying these apparent "anti-Bond" remarks no mind. And, unless it's Tom Cruise, someone's off-screen political/social leanings aren't going to dissuade me from watching another installment of a good action series.

Here's to August 3rd.

[dinovelvet]

Also, I don't understand why many Bond fans seem to bristle at the idea that Bond has taken some inspiration from Bourne, as though that would be a bad thing. And, anyway, it's pretty obvious that Bourne would not exist at all had it not been for Bond, the daddy of 'em all. No one's saying or even suggesting that CASINO ROYALE is some kind of ripoff of THE BOURNE SUPREMACY, but is there any Bourne influence on the Craig era? I think there is, and this is no disgrace to Bond, just as it's no disgrace to Bond that LIVE AND LET DIE took inspiration from SHAFT, that MOONRAKER took inspiration from STAR WARS, and so on. I'd agree that Jack Bauer was another influence on CR, as was BATMAN BEGINS, but I ask again: why do people have a problem with Bond being influenced by things? Just as long as it isn't ripping them off (which it isn't), and as long as the Bond series is making films good enough to rival the best of "the competition" (which it definitely is - much as I love Bourne and 24, I'd say CR is even better, and certainly a superior film to BATMAN BEGINS, although I've always found BB rather overrated), then it's all good, no?

I agree Bond is influenced by other films and cinema trends. I just don't see any Bourne in it, at all. Why? Well I found the first one to be a mostly tedious experience, the Bourne person being a pretty bland character. There's a fine line between 'gritty/realistic' and just plain dull, and the film crossed it pretty often. I also didn't buy Matt Damon as the lead at all. Ironically/coincidentally, that Owen fellow was quite good in it and I think he should have played the lead. Did someone above really imply that Craig's casting was sort of influenced by him looking like Matt Damon?! Perhaps if the thrilling TWINE had been released after the Bourne films, then I could buy that EON had been influenced by them
Anyway, I can totally buy that the BATMAN BEGINS reboot definitely made someone at EON sit up and take notice, and say, "Hey, we've just got Casino Royale, what if that's the kind of direction we go with it?". I can also see a lot of 24 in the Bond of Casino Royale. And not just in the superficial similarities, like reliance on cellphones, use of computers, torture, etc, but Bauer himself looms large over the new Bond, in his ruthless beyond the call of duty, going to extremes for the sake of the mission type attitude. Some of the action is pretty 24-esque too, I seem to remember Bauer invading an embassy to abduct an informant who was hiding there, and the Miami airport scene also feels very 24-esque, especially in the music.
So, yeah, the Bond franchise probably would have died out long ago if EON hadn't had the sense to get with the times and taking note of what other films were doing.

And Bourne sucks.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Frankly, considering the runaway success of DIE ANOTHER DAY, I just don't see the logic in EON's braintrust sitting around saying "Where do we go from here? Maybe we can do Matt Damon's Jason Bourne shtick!" The NFL Super Bowl champions don't watch film of the Pop Warner pee wee league champs to figure out how best to defend their title next season.

Well, judging by Stateside grosses, THE BOURNE SUPREMACY (with a haul of $176,241,941) was even more of a runaway success than DIE ANOTHER DAY ($160,942,139), and even CASINO ROYALE ($167,445,960). While THE BOURNE IDENTITY grossed "only" $121,661,683, that isn't too far from THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH's take of $126,943,684. (All info courtesy of Box Office Mojo, naturally.)

And Bourne 2 cost 50% of what that loud obnoxious Bond film did so it made alot more of a return on it's investment. I love both series without getting catty...why there is so much (nervous) hostility to Bourne is amazing to me. The Bond of Die another Day is far from being the superbowl champs( ). He's more like the Washington Redskins-overpaid,over the hill players/head coaches under achieving.

[the villain's architect]

[quote name='yolt13' post='757031' date='24 July 2007 - 07:50']Matt Damon in GQ:

"Bond is part of the system. He

[yolt13]

why there is so much (nervous) hostility to Bourne is amazing to me.

It shouldn't be. It was the ridiculous tantrum thrown by Matt Damon in GQ that spurred it on, and the Bourne faithful who seem intent on keeping it going. Damon could easily have said "Bond works for the government, Bourne doesn't. Bond is a womanizer, Bourne isn't. Bond is a heavy drinker, Bourne isn't. Bond is acting on orders, Bourne is trying to survive. The two are completely different." Instead, he started throwing around absurd words like "imperialist" and "misogynist", making him sound both petty and uninformed. The majority of the hostility in the last few days began with these comments. However, the discussion of them (which included many Bond fans saying that it didn't matter to them, they loved Bourne anyway) somehow led to threads about Bourne "spanking" Bond and people claiming Bond fans are declaring "moral superiority" and all other manner of nonsense. It isn't those who are okay with the two series co-existing that are fueling the fire, but rather those who seem bent on Bourne "winning". I'm hardly nervous about the Jason Bourne movies, and I doubt you'll find anyone else who is either. In fact, until Matt Damon fired his verbal salvo, I wouldn't have been any more inclined to engage in this sort of discussion than I would have been to have a heated "Flint Vs. Bond" or "Helm Vs. Bond" debate.

The Super Bowl analogy stands (though I'll admit to referring to the Bourne series as Pop Warner out of pure sarcasm). The comparison wasn't about the quality of the films, but the hard numbers, and you can't just ignore the international tallies that made DAD the highest grossing 007 film to that point when comparing the two franchises simply because doing so strengthens your position (unless of course you want to forget that the Bond films aren't made in the US in the first place). Globally, the two Bourne films combined over a period of a few years did outgross DAD in its roughly six month run, but it still makes no sense financially that Babs and Michael would worry about the direction of a franchise that just had a fiscal windfall to the tune of $430+ mil worldwide. Did the success of the Bourne films imfluence their decision to "get serious"? Probably, to some degree. The most likely impact was to convince EON that they could spend less on special effects and still make boatloads of cash. But your initial contention was that without Bourne there would have been no CR, and that remains a fairly ludicrous assertion.

[yolt13]

The rest of the Matt Damon GQ interview:

"GQ: Okay, we know how you feel about Bond. What about other movie & TV spies? Matt Helm?

MD: A Fascist Red Stater who drowns puppies for fun.

GQ: John Steed?

MD: Tony Blair's pool boy. Did you know he likes to drink whole bottles of NyQuil and push old ladies under those double decker buses they have? And don't even get me started on Tara King!

GQ: Derek Flint?

MD: A neo-Nazi who calls people up and tells them they've won the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes just so he can hear their disappointment when he reveals the truth.

GQ: Napoleon Solo?

MD: Voted for Bush BOTH times! I mean, come on!

GQ: Jim Phelps?

MD: When he's not burying cats up to their necks and running them over with lawnmowers, he builds 1/4 scale replicas of concentration camps. It's true. George Clooney told me so.

GQ: Jack Ryan?

MD: Is that the one Ben played? I didn't see that movie, but I'll bet he's a great guy.

GQ: But Jack Ryan was created by Tom Clancy, a die-hard conservative?

MD: Yeah, but any spy played by Alec Baldwin can't be all that bad, now can he?

GQ: Honey West?

MD: B***h!"

Edited by yolt13, 26 July 2007 - 04:06 AM.

[hcmv007]

It is almost here!



This film doesn't seem to follow the third novel at all, but an original story just using the title. Now this is based on the trailers I have seen so far, and what I have read. Looks to be fun, and the perfect way to start a weekend.

[The Dove]

Amazon.com now has listening examples up for the Bourne Ultimatum soundtrack (again John Powell does a brilliant job). The soundtrack is supposed to be in stores tomorrow, July 31st!! I am SO looking forward to this.

http://www.amazon.co...h...4176&sr=8-2

[dodge]

P.S. Anyone see 'The Hitman' trailor? It's pretty damn cool.

Heh yeah I am actually looking forward to that.

Me too. Jet Li returning to his American roots as a villain? I'll be there!

[americanbond]

I was so happy to see EON put out CR. I found it to be overall superior than TBS which I didn't think would happen after DAD, TWINE etc. Casiono Royale was the most fun I've ever had at the theaters - the same fun I'm sure original movie goers of Goldfinger felt. From a pure action standpoint also (which is the only area I feel you can really compare the Bourne and Bond movies as they have different purposes in other areas), I thought the entire first hour was superior and more fun than the action in TBS.

Then I saw The Bourne Ultimatum last night. I may not have had as much giddy fun as CR (part of that was because I love the bond series to such an high degree), but to be honest, The Bourne Ultimatum blew away TBS for fun and excitement IMO and was more exciting and thrilling from an action perspective than Casino Royale (though they are real close when comparing just the first hour of CR). The Bourne filmakers stepped up their game again.

[dinovelvet]

P.S. Anyone see 'The Hitman' trailor? It's pretty damn cool.

Heh yeah I am actually looking forward to that.

Me too. Jet Li returning to his American roots as a villain? I'll be there!

Hmm I don't know what that film is, but Hitman is about Timothy Olyphant as a bald assassin, its based on a videogame.

[Gobi-1]

Saw The Bourne Ultimatum yesterday and I have to say it's the best Bourne yet. I loved it. It's almost as good as Casino Royale. The action scenes are top notched and are some of the best I've seen. The rooftop chase in Tangier blows the similar chase from The Living Daylights out of the water. The car chase in New York is absolutely stunning, with the sound effects adding immensely to the scene. The fights were also well staged and the shaky camera moves did not distract from them. Bond 22 has got it's work cut out for them.

Plus I'm in love with Julia Stiles and it was great to see her with a larger role this time around.

Hope they do continue and eventually make a forth Bourne film.

[jaguar007]

It brought in an estimated 25million on Friday - it will certainly have a much bigger opening weekend than CR did. We have Rush Hour3 opening next weekend so we will see how it holds on.

[DLibrasnow]

Saw it earlier today. Good flick, but not as good as the other two installments IMO. That said though - it was better than Casino Royale.

[Professor Dent]

Amazon.com now has listening examples up for the Bourne Ultimatum soundtrack (again John Powell does a brilliant job). The soundtrack is supposed to be in stores tomorrow, July 31st!! I am SO looking forward to this.

http://www.amazon.co...h...4176&sr=8-2

I picked it up yesterday & it is excellent. It looks to be my favorite of the series.

Plus I'm in love with Julia Stiles and it was great to see her with a larger role this time around.

I agree on both counts. The scene in the diner is what did it for me. Not sure why but I thought she just looked really good in it.

[Loomis]

Saw it earlier today. Good flick, but not as good as the other two installments IMO. That said though - it was better than Casino Royale.

Hmmm....

Looking forward to more reports from American CBners, particularly Harmsway and Tarl. Damn thing doesn't hit Blighty for another couple of weeks.

[ACE]

Ah cain't rightly wait for et.
'is too larng a-comin'

$70 mil opening weekend - roll on, Bourne baby.

Matty, do a Johnny Depp, and at least publicly consider a fourth instalment of yer franchise.

[TheSaint]

Me too. Jet Li returning to his American roots as a villain? I'll be there!

The film with Jet Li as a villain is War, also starring Jason Statham. That comes out towards the end of August. Unless I go see Die Hard 4 again, that will be the next film I see.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Saw it earlier today. Good flick, but not as good as the other two installments IMO. That said though - it was better than Casino Royale.

Hmmm....

Looking forward to more reports from American CBners, particularly Harmsway and Tarl. Damn thing doesn't hit Blighty for another couple of weeks.

nanner nanner Really? Not out in the U.K. Yet? Man...that's messed up.


Gonna try to catch it tonight...going to a college town theater...good lord people,keep your bastid far too young for this movie children at home, turn your cell phones off and shut the *&%$ up and or there will be hell to pay!

Sorry, just have had some really annoying theater experiences lately.

[DLibrasnow]

Saw it earlier today. Good flick, but not as good as the other two installments IMO. That said though - it was better than Casino Royale.

Hmmm....

Looking forward to more reports from American CBners, particularly Harmsway and Tarl. Damn thing doesn't hit Blighty for another couple of weeks.

It's going to be worth the wait Loomis. The theater I went to was packed for the 12:45 p.m. matinee show (and the preceeding 12 noon showing had been a sell-out). The movie manages to tie up the trilogy pretty well.
Apparently it does not resemble the book very much though, according to one of the people sitiing close to us. But the general reception was positive with a number of people cheering at the end.

I also agree with the comment about it being great to see Julia Stiles in a greater role. It afforded her more of an opportunity to show of some of her characters CIA training.

[RevolveR]

Saw it earlier today. Good flick, but not as good as the other two installments IMO. That said though - it was better than Casino Royale.

My girlfriend wanted to see the film so she dragged me to it on Saturday Night(I had vowed I wouldn't support it after Damon's GQ comments). That said, it was a very good film and I feel that it was the best of the Bourne series.

As far as being better than CR...that's a laughable claim, I'm afraid. I would like to see how many other people on CBn agree with you and if so, why?

Edited by RevolveR, 07 August 2007 - 04:46 AM.

[VisualStatic]

Saw it last night.

Better then CR? No way. Absolutely no way is it better then CR.
I found the story to be the best part. The acting was on par with the others. But I still feel Identity was better and more enjoyable then the other 2. And that is for the simple reason that whoever thought the shaky cam was a good idea need to be taken out and given the carpet-beater treatment ala CR the novel.

[Harmsway]

Hmmm....

Looking forward to more reports from American CBners, particularly Harmsway and Tarl. Damn thing doesn't hit Blighty for another couple of weeks.

Well, here's mine.

THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM is, IMO, a good action flick that serves as a fitting third entry in the Bourne series. It is not, however, the best of the Bourne flicks or superior to CASINO ROYALE.

It's hard not to watch the film and be entertained. This film is a slam-bang ride with some of the better action sequences in recent years (though the car chase isn't quite as good as the former two, IMO, the bit in the terminal and the Tangier sequence are pretty bloomin' fantastic). Greengrass knows how to pour on the tension, and that's where this film's strength lies.

However, the film's narrative is more than a little weak. There are some cool ideas here and there, but it really does seem like a lazy patchwork of ideas rather than a consistent story. And the "revelation" to which the film builds does seem like something of an anticlimax:

Spoiler

We build up to details about who David Webb really is, and all we find out is that he volunteered for the program? Big flippin' deal. I had taken it for granted that he volunteered way back.

But as I said, ULTIMATUM's good. I don't want to be harsh on it, since I had a fun time watching it. It's just not the end-all, be-all of action films, or of spy thrillers, or even of the Bourne series itself.

[Loomis]

Interesting, Harmsway. I'd been eagerly awaiting your verdict.

Mine will hopefully be foisted on CBn in a couple of weeks (those darn British release dates!), but I suspect I'll end up sharing your views on this one. I guess the key is to go in without the expectation of the greatest thing since sliced bread, and with (although you haven't mentioned this, but many, many people have) a very high tolerance of shakycam.

BTW, re: the lacklustre so-called revelations at the end, I can't be alone in thinking that they're saving up a lot of backstory for a Damon-free prequel.

[Harmsway]

I guess the key is to go in without the expectation of the greatest thing since sliced bread, and with (although you haven't mentioned this, but many, many people have) a very high tolerance of shakycam.

There's no more shakycam than in SUPREMACY.

Anyway, I just read Damon's comments that there was no real locked-down script for ULTIMATUM. It shows.

[Loomis]

I guess the key is to go in without the expectation of the greatest thing since sliced bread, and with (although you haven't mentioned this, but many, many people have) a very high tolerance of shakycam.

There's no more shakycam than in SUPREMACY.

You wouldn't know that from all the reviews, though. I was under the impression that the shakycam was SUPREMACY gone nuclear, but thanks for setting me straight.

I take it you didn't find the action incoherent/numbing, then?