101 replies to this topic

[Double-Oh Agent]

...why would he need to torture Bond at all at that point? Couldn't he just use Vesper in the same way that White does later? The only thing I can think of (and I think somebody else said something similar in another post) is that Le Chiffre simply did not have the time to wait for Bond to deposit the money and for Vesper to withdraw it for him...After all, as has been said, Le Chiffre is well connected and smart enough to know that White must be on to him and it's only a matter of time before White gets tired of the games and comes after him..

Yes, there was no time.

No time doesn't make sense to me; it was an electronic transfer that could have been handled in seconds if Vesper wanted to push it ("Lets get business done before pleasure" or some other simple line) and Bond would have probably been too pre-occupied to notice anything odd until it was too late (much like he does anyhow).

It just doesn't strike me that Vesper is working at all for Le Chiffre when I look back on the film.

Yes, Vesper has the account number, but Bond has the password. And who knew when Bond would get around to making the transfer? As it was, it was several days before the transfer was made. Le Chiffre couldn't wait that long. He only had a matter of hours, if not minutes, not days.

[George Kaplan]

Yes, Vesper has the account number, but Bond has the password. And who knew when Bond would get around to making the transfer? As it was, it was several days before the transfer was made. Le Chiffre couldn't wait that long. He only had a matter of hours, if not minutes, not days.

Yes but it takes a couple of days because Bond was in no condition to make the transfer after Le Chiffre got to him.

If Le Chiffre had Vesper working for him, he could have had her go up to Bond that night after he won and tell him that the treasury is nervous about the money (or something similar) and wants it deposited that night. That could have even been the content of the text message, rather than staging a fake kidnapping. I doubt that at that point Bond would say "no", and then the money would be transfered and Le Chiffre would be off the hook.

It makes more sense to me that Vesper is working for Mr. White, not Le Chiffre and that from Le Chiffre's perspective Vesper is working for Bond and that the kidnapping was real.

[wendy54]

Hmmm so many possibilities....
I was having trouble accepting that Le CHiffre wouldn't have been able to find out that Vesper was working for White given how well connected he supposedly was, though when I think about it, MI6 didn't know either..and M even comments that it was something they should have caught...

it seems that each explanation leaves something that doesn't quite make sense ( to me at least) ie....(if we assume that Mathis is innocent, and that Le Chiffre didn't know about Vesper's affiliation, how did he learn Bond knew the tell? OR did Le CHiffre do the tell on purpose the first time? In that case, who told them about the tracking chip?; if we assume Le Chiffre knew about Vesper , why stage the kidnapping when he could have gotten vesper to get the money deposited ASAP and then transferred to him? could mathis be dirty? why would they make mathis dirty?.....etc. etc)

I'm ready for the next movie....

[George Kaplan]

If nothing else, there certainly seems to a be a lot of potential angles for the next movie to take and expand on!

[Paul Scrabo]

If their ever was a great link to classic 60s Bond style films in "Casino Royale", it is Mathis.
He is a new Draco to me. I was annoyed when P&V killed off Robbie Coltran's character in TWINE, and very confused when they make it appear that Mathis beytrayed Bond. This si a wonderful part palyed by CG, and let's hope he comes back as a good guy. This is possibly the only quip I have with "Casino Royale"
Paul

[DanMan]

Just watched CR again and realized something so blatantly obvious that I can't believe none of us picked it up already. It was neither Mathis or Vesper that told Le Chiffre about his "tell". It was when Bond tells Le Chiffre:

"A little, but I won't consider myself in trouble until I start weeping blood."

Bond basically tells Le Chiffre that he knows his tell, and in the next scene, he loses everything. Another example of Bond making some mistakes early on. I guess this clears Mathis on at least this little point, but we'll see about the big picture.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

The tell was that thing with his finger on his temple not the blood.

[DanMan]

Oh... well now I feel like an idiot.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

Tha betrayal of Mathis really astonished me !!!

[Vauxhall]

Tha betrayal of Mathis really astonished me !!!

If he truly did betray Bond of course...

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Oh... well now I feel like an idiot.

We forgive you.


And nicolas I still believe that he didn't betray Bond at all.

[DaveBond21]

I think it is very interesting that no-one on here is 100% certain that Mathis is a good guy.

It is great to have something open-ended like this. I prefer movies where you have to make your own mind up, rather than the film-makers spoon-feeding us all the info we need.

[Retrovertigo]

I wonder how much we will find out from the audio commentaries on the DVD? I dont think they will give away too much, i think it will flow into Bond 22.

One question: If Vesper was working directly for Le Chiffre, how did she get Mr White's mobile number?

I read in a different post where someone suggested that Vesper had planned to betray Bond the whole time and it wasnt until he expressed his love for her that she changes her mind and decides to try and 'run away' with Bond and sail around the world together. It is when she spots Gettler that she realises she will never be able to escape Mr White and decides to hand over the money, and her life (as she knows that Bond now knows she was originally going to betray him), in order to save Bond's life as originally organised with Mr White.

I dont have an opinon on whether Mathis is good or bad, it hurts my brain trying to figure it out

[bill007]

From what I remember in the novel (and has probably already been mentioned here) is that Mathis is a good guy, and Vesper is not a good guy, er, gal.

I'd like to see in Bond 22 that even though Bond has learned not to trust anyone, after Mathis has gone through 'the ringer,' he is indeed a good guy.

[sharpshooter]

If Mathis teams up with 007 again in Bond 22, the relationship between the two would be more interesting. Bond would be doubtful and untrusting of Mathis, causing a new angle. Mathis was done really well in the movie, and played extremely well. It would be a shame for his character not to re-occur.

[bill007]

Touche' sharpshooter. It would indeed be nice to see a character thread evolve for a few films, if not more. Likewise with Felix. Although, they couldn't be on every mission could they.

[the other fellow]

If Mathis is innocent (which i think he is) and Bond 22 is "RISICO",
will Mathis return in the Colombo role?

[Vauxhall]

If Mathis is innocent (which i think he is) and Bond 22 is "RISICO",
will Mathis return in the Colombo role?

Interesting thought but I believe that this implication is more that the title of BOND 22 will be "Risico" rather than the actual content of the movie.

[DaveBond21]

I remember when I first watched the movie, that I thought that Mathis had been killed by those 2 guys.

It wasn't until M mentions him at the end that I realised he wasn't. On 2nd viewing it is more obvious but I wonder how many people like me, thought they'd killed Mathis?

Anyway, it's all very interesting, and I can't wait to see him in Bond 22, I am hoping he becomes a bit of a Colombo character.

[Byron]

I remember when I first watched the movie, that I thought that Mathis had been killed by those 2 guys.

It wasn't until M mentions him at the end that I realised he wasn't. On 2nd viewing it is more obvious but I wonder how many people like me, thought they'd killed Mathis?

Anyway, it's all very interesting, and I can't wait to see him in Bond 22, I am hoping he becomes a bit of a Colombo character.

Well one thing i can clear up is the brand of shoes Mathis is wearing in the film.

They are Lloyd, German made, leather shoes. I have a pair, they are very nice.

I picked this up by the distinctive red stripe on the soles of his shoes as he was being carried away by the 2 dudes at the end.

As to whether he is friend or foe, i have read all the posts here with interest and still cannot decide. Do hope he comes back though.

[DaveBond21]

If he does come back, it would make him one of the most intrigiuing characters in the Bond series, whichever side he is on.

[the other fellow]

If he does come back, it would make him one of the most intrigiuing characters in the Bond series, whichever side he is on.

Agreed, DaveBond21.
Having a Fleming Character back in the series is sensational.
I hope he is played by GC again as he was so great in the part.
BRING ON BOND22!

Edited by the other fellow, 02 January 2007 - 01:11 PM.

[Mister Asterix]

The tell was that thing with his finger on his temple not the blood.

[mra]Actually, the real tell was the semi-double blink Le Chiffre does when he is bluffing. The finger thing is to try and hide it. Unfortunately because of the tip off, Bond falls for the finger to the temple as being the tell, because I don

[DaveBond21]

If he does come back, it would make him one of the most intrigiuing characters in the Bond series, whichever side he is on.


Agreed, DaveBond21.
Having a Fleming Character back in the series is sensational.
I hope he is played by GC again as he was so great in the part.
BRING ON BOND22!

Yes, they couldn't do it with another actor in the role.

[Fro]

After finally watching the movie for a second time, I can say with 100% certainty that neither Mathis nor Vesper worked directly with Le Chiffre. The "damsel in the road" moment rules out Vesper working with LeChiffre.

The tell is a red herring, as LeChiffre subconsciously does it the hand after beating Bond (and folds). Mathis even says "THAT'S THE TELL" to Vesper. And really, how could you set up a situation like that and know a guy's not bluffing (you can't predict which hand is the best to use the bluff in advance). There's absolutely nothing in Mathis's acting in all the situations he's in that betrays his character (not so with Vesper). Don't you think he might act a little concerned when Bond is going to knife LeChiffre?

Now, the question is if either worked with Mr. White. Vesper definitely did at least from the torture scene on. It's questionable with Mathis.

- Mathis is well-intentioned... Vesper saying she "got the message from Mathis" was either a lie from Vesper or LeChiffre/Mr. White's goons stealing his cell phone and sending a message.

- Mathis plays both sides. He took out LeChiffre's associates to make it easier for Mr. White to kill LeChiffre if he failed. He gave Bond the tracking device, which perhaps the LRA could also track to find LeChiffre and threaten him (and also explains why Mr. White knew where to find the warehouse). Perhaps he was given orders to trick Vesper, or to meet with her somewhere. Perhaps he told LeChiffre he was a double agent and really on his side.

- Mathis's "superior" is a double-agent working for Mr. White's organization, and he ordered Mathis to unwillingly do some or all of the things in bullet point #2. I think that'd be the most interesting scenario.

[ralawar]

[quote]The "damsel in the road" moment rules out Vesper working with LeChiffre. [/quote]You can't necessarily eliminate Vesper from working for Le Chiffre because:

If she is working for him, she is of no use to him after he had already lost the game. She became dispensable after she had tried to stop Bond from winning, that was her entire blackmailed job (up until the torture scene).

If she wasn't, then yes, risking her life on the road wouldn't matter to him either.

I doubt he even thought that she'd be run over because he still needed to torture her for the account number. (By the way, I thought Vesper/Bond did not enter an account number until after the torture scene where the Mandels guy visits?...I ask because , during the torture scene, Le Chiffre said he could get the account number from Vesper but I thought they hadn't chosen which account to send the money to since she had to later enter the account number...unless that was a 2nd time and for verfication purposes)


[quote]The tell is a red herring, as LeChiffre subconsciously does it the hand after beating Bond (and folds). Mathis even says "THAT'S THE TELL" to Vesper.[/quote]

what do you mean by that?

[quote] And really, how could you set up a situation like that and know a guy's not bluffing (you can't predict which hand is the best to use the bluff in advance). [/quote]4 Jacks is a pretty damn good hand...good time to use a fake tell for sure

[quote]Don't you think he might act a little concerned when Bond is going to knife LeChiffre?[/quote]

Mathis looked pretty concerned as Bond walked away.

[quote]- Mathis is well-intentioned... Vesper saying she "got the message from Mathis" was either a lie from Vesper or LeChiffre/Mr. White's goons stealing his cell phone and sending a message.[/quote]I doubt LeChiffre/Mr. White's goons had time to steal his phone during B&V's dinner, but then again, Mathis wasn't anywhere in the area...so they might have stolen it or they could have just called him and told him to text Vesper.

Vesper lieing is a good possibility, too.

[quote]He took out LeChiffre's associates to make it easier for Mr. White to kill LeChiffre if he failed.[/quote]

When did he take out LeChiffre associates?

[quote]He gave Bond the tracking device, which perhaps the LRA could also track to find LeChiffre and threaten him (and also explains why Mr. White knew where to find the warehouse). [/quote]I think Bond ordered him to get the tracking device...part of his plan.

And yes, Mr. White did find the warehouse, but there could have been a number of ways how he did this. He could have been stalking Le Chiffre, he could have had Le Chiffre working for him, or the unknown org. could have just told him where Le Chiffre's warehouse is.

[quote]- Mathis's "superior" is a double-agent working for Mr. White's organization, and he ordered Mathis to unwillingly do some or all of the things in bullet point #2. I think that'd be the most interesting scenario.[/quote]

I doubt he had a superior, not to mention one that's a traitor. It's possible though. They probably would have showed us this superior in the movie though...well, unless they plan to in the next movie.

[quote name='Mister Asterix' post='679925' date='2 January 2007 - 10:11'][quote name='ComplimentsOfSharky' post='665944' date='9 December 2006 - 11:33']The tell was that thing with his finger on his temple not the blood.[/quote]


[mra]Actually, the real tell was the semi-double blink Le Chiffre does when he is bluffing. The finger thing is to try and hide it. Unfortunately because of the tip off, Bond falls for the finger to the temple as being the tell, because I don

[Hilbun]

in my opinon i think mathis is a villain in the movie. if u notice in the movie, just before mathis got shot with the trazer gun (or whatever it is called), that he spiked bonds drink and then pressured him to drink up right away. now why would a friend do that? so to me i think he is a villain and might get killed off in the next bond movie.

[rafterman]

We'll find out in the next film.

[the other fellow]

in my opinon i think mathis is a villain in the movie. if u notice in the movie, just before mathis got shot with the trazer gun (or whatever it is called), that he spiked bonds drink and then pressured him to drink up right away. now why would a friend do that? so to me i think he is a villain and might get killed off in the next bond movie.

Welcome to the posts Hilbun.
Mathis says something like "they tell me i'm supposed to give you this"
before pouring the powder and water into a glass.
Maybe he's just following the doctor's orders.
I think Mathis could be suspicious of Bond and Vesper as their lives
were spared by the Organization.

Edited by the other fellow, 06 January 2007 - 06:31 PM.

[the villain's architect]

Everything that happened in CR can be explained with Mathis being good. And M said it at the end. All that led us into doubts was Bond's answer that Mathis is not completely cleared for him. And that's only to show Bond won't trust anybody so fast anymore.

Mathis is currently being questioned by the MI6.
If he runs around again in Bond 22, he is either cleared of all suspects or the MI6 (and Bond) will have an eye on him after his release. Not much space for him to do anything relevant.