101 replies to this topic

[JCRendle]

Now the film is out there I thought this was a discussion that would split opinions:

Mathis, Friend or Foe?

My Opinion: Friend

Reason: At the end they are playing with Bond's head, as well as torturing him physically, they are torturing him mentally. They know that he is going to find out Vesper betrayed him, and to add to that if he has suspicions that Mathis did too it's certainly going to create paranoia within him.

We will find out more, I hope, as the films come out, but really - how can you mistrust Mathis?

[Blunt Instrument]

Neither...

Le Chiffre calling him "MY friend, Mathis" may have been just to thow him off, but remember, the man's strength is numbers, not necessarily counterintelligence, no matter how shady his business deals are...
Either way, Bond learned that trust is something he can't afford to anyone in his line of work. Which is why I love that scene at the end where he inists on keeping an eye on Mathis.

Edited by Blunt Instrument, 17 November 2006 - 08:00 PM.

[Sanjuro007]

I hope Mathis returns for Bond 22 and/or 23. It would really be a nice plot thread to follow up on. It would be great to see him and Bond eventually make amends, as they each prove to "have each other's back" -- unless, of course, Mathis is meant to be a bad guy, after all and not a red herring.

Edited by Sanjuro007, 18 November 2006 - 05:35 AM.

[MR. BOND 93]

I don't know. That confused me. My guess is foe... but I'm not sure yet.

[Bucky]

i hope friend. it was an interesting twist in the film

[K1Bond007]

Le Chiffre calling him "MY friend, Mathis" may have been just to thow him off

I disagree. Le Chiffre loves to rub it in on Bond when he one ups him or thinks he's one upping him. "Welcome Mr. Beech or is that Mr. Bond.." - "OOOPS" - "My Friend, Mathis." Why would he say this last one if it wasn't true? He was going to torture Bond then most likely kill him. Right? Why would he lie?

Mathis is an enigma. It's possible that Mathis was playing Le Chiffre and it went sour. I could buy that, but I don't think that's the case. How deep is Mathis involved is the question. Was it he who tipped off Le Chiffre? Did he outright work for Le Chiffre? Did he directly work for this SMERSH/SPECTRE like organization? Was he just a dirty cop? Who knows. My guess is that Mathis directly works for the organization. I don't know if he tipped off Le Chiffre (for the tell). That may have been Vesper. But I believe it was Mathis who helped Le Chiffre kidnap Bond and Vesper so that they could retrieve the funds and pay off the organization and/or to help set up the location so that Mr. White knew where to find Le Chiffre.

I could go with friend though. I think the writers left it wide open so that they could go any route they wanted with Bond 22.

[Monsieur B]

I'm also hoping friend. I refuse to believe that Mathis is entirely a foe. I loved his character and would love to see him allied with Bond again in the future. Fingers crossed.

[JCRendle]

He was going to torture Bond then most likely kill him. Right? Why would he lie?

To add to the torture - on top of the physical it plays with Bond's mind, at a time when he needs to have his mind clear, fully concentrating on resisting the torture, the seeds of doubt/betrayal/paranoia can't help.

[K1Bond007]

He was going to torture Bond then most likely kill him. Right? Why would he lie?

To add to the torture - on top of the physical it plays with Bond's mind, at a time when he needs to have his mind clear, fully concentrating on resisting the torture, the seeds of doubt/betrayal/paranoia can't help.

Except Bond had already "figured it out" by that point. Le Chiffre only confirmed it to a barely conscious James Bond. Hell, Bond may not have even heard him.

[Double-Oh Agent]

He was going to torture Bond then most likely kill him. Right? Why would he lie?

To add to the torture - on top of the physical it plays with Bond's mind, at a time when he needs to have his mind clear, fully concentrating on resisting the torture, the seeds of doubt/betrayal/paranoia can't help.

Good point. Also, I suppose there is the chance that had Bond cooperated, Le Chiffre, however unlikely it would seem on the surface, MAY have let him go free and rather than have Bond wonder about Vesper's loyalty, instead cast doubt on Mathis.

I really hope that Mathis is not a bad guy. That would be blasphemous--almost on the level of the Mission: Impossible film making Jim Phelps the villain. Mathis is a likeable chap and is Bond's best friend in Europe. It doesn't make sense to make him a bad guy and basically sticks it to the fans if EON does so. Just try and imagine Kerim Bey or Enrico Colombo being converted to double agents in their respective films. Oh the horror! Anyway, I, for one, will be greatly upset if Mathis winds up being a villain.

So, having said all that, I still think--and would be willing to bet--that Mathis is a good guy and that Vesper was Le Chiffre's only mole in the mission. Nevertheless, I could see where Le Chiffre either set up Mathis as was mentioned in the first paragraph or where Mathis is acting as a triple agent trying to get inside Le Chiffre's organization. Le Chiffre thinks Mathis is doubling for him when he tells Bond about his French friend, but in reality he is being used by Mathis to get information on his mysterious terrorist employers. We haven't very many double agents/triple agents in the Bond films before so I could see where EON might try to do that now in its more realistic, gritty tone of Daniel Craig film.

[David Schofield]

Brilliantly cast, superbly played (other than the stupid omission of the backstory of him knowing Bond already and the hospital tete a tete), but a crap agent.

In a public place: "My name is Rene Mathis. I AM YOUR CONTACT HERE."

With field skills like that, would you want him on your side? Straight from a Clouseau movie.

[dinovelvet]

Another thing to consider, how did Le Chiffre know to cut the tracking chip out of Bond's arm? That's the kind of info Mathis might know

[JCRendle]

Or Vesper

[Johnboy007]

Brilliantly cast, superbly played (other than the stupid omission of the backstory of him knowing Bond already and the hospital tete a tete), but a crap agent.

In a public place: "My name is Rene Mathis. I AM YOUR CONTACT HERE."

With field skills like that, would you want him on your side? Straight from a Clouseau movie.

What about telling the hotel clerk his name is James Bond and that the woman from the treasury should pay?

[The Admiral]

I'm glad you bought this up, JCRendle - because it's one of the points that is left open in the film.

Perhaps Le Chiffre says this, because he doesn't want Bond to suspect Vesper, hoping that the thought they may kill her, he'd give up the password? If beating his bollocks wasn't enough...

If he goes ahead and says Vesper was the double, then he wouldn't have given a toss if they killed her--as we see in the Venice scene where Bond says 'Allow me' - with regards to shooting Vesper himself.

Though, I'm really not sure. I hope he is 100% Bond's ally as it'd be great to see him in future films.

[bond_girl_double07]

Refresh my memory.. in the novel, how does Le Chiffre lure Vesper into the car? How does Fleming treat Mathis? I need to reread the book clearly, but this is one of the plot points that I don't remember very clearly..

[Bucky]

Le Chiffre calling him "MY friend, Mathis" may have been just to thow him off

I disagree. Le Chiffre loves to rub it in on Bond when he one ups him or thinks he's one upping him. "Welcome Mr. Beech or is that Mr. Bond.." - "OOOPS" - "My Friend, Mathis." Why would he say this last one if it wasn't true? He was going to torture Bond then most likely kill him. Right? Why would he lie?

Mathis is an enigma. It's possible that Mathis was playing Le Chiffre and it went sour. I could buy that, but I don't think that's the case. How deep is Mathis involved is the question. Was it he who tipped off Le Chiffre? Did he outright work for Le Chiffre? Did he directly work for this SMERSH/SPECTRE like organization? Was he just a dirty cop? Who knows. My guess is that Mathis directly works for the organization. I don't know if he tipped off Le Chiffre (for the tell). That may have been Vesper. But I believe it was Mathis who helped Le Chiffre kidnap Bond and Vesper so that they could retrieve the funds and pay off the organization and/or to help set up the location so that Mr. White knew where to find Le Chiffre.

I could go with friend though. I think the writers left it wide open so that they could go any route they wanted with Bond 22.

actually now that i think of it he may have said it was mathis to take suspision off vesper because if bond thought it was her that had betrayed him then le chiffre could not use her to get the password from bond while torturing him

[JCRendle]

Refresh my memory.. in the novel, how does Le Chiffre lure Vesper into the car? How does Fleming treat Mathis? I need to reread the book clearly, but this is one of the plot points that I don't remember very clearly..

I'll have to reread the book, but I think the waiter brings a note from "Mathis"

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

I hope friend. I loved Mathis in the book and he was cool in the movie. I thought he got a pretty bad rap honestly...

I guess it's like the Draco thing in NDOD with me...

[bond_girl_double07]

I hope friend. I loved Mathis in the book and he was cool in the movie. I thought he got a pretty bad rap honestly...

I guess it's like the Draco thing in NDOD with me...

Can you summarize Mathis' involvement in the novel, Sharky? A general rundown of the literary character and his interaction with Bond would be awesome

[Roebuck]

He was going to torture Bond then most likely kill him. Right? Why would he lie?

To add to the torture - on top of the physical it plays with Bond's mind, at a time when he needs to have his mind clear, fully concentrating on resisting the torture, the seeds of doubt/betrayal/paranoia can't help.

Except Bond had already "figured it out" by that point. Le Chiffre only confirmed it to a barely conscious James Bond. Hell, Bond may not have even heard him.

I believe earlier drafts made the relationship less ambiguous, with Le Chiffre phoning Mathis from the site of the car crash to confirm Bond had been captured. The new dialogue gives the producers probable deniability if they want to reuse Mathis in future films. They can just write it off as a bit of misdirection on Le Chiffre's part.

[Evil Doctor Cheese Returns]

I think foe. Either that or Vesper was using "mathis" as a cover for being needed by Le Chiffre/Mr White before she is kidnapped. Which would make sense to throw Bond off the scent. Who knows?

The film will make more sense and leave less questions unanswered once the sequel sorts this out.

G x

[Bucky]

i love that we are getting a sequel that continues the story

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

I hope friend. I loved Mathis in the book and he was cool in the movie. I thought he got a pretty bad rap honestly...

I guess it's like the Draco thing in NDOD with me...

Can you summarize Mathis' involvement in the novel, Sharky? A general rundown of the literary character and his interaction with Bond would be awesome

Well, he was fairly similar...he was French intelligence - Bonds contact at Royale and also an old friend. He actually played a little smaller of a role than Leiter in the action of the book however he was big in the end.

When Bond is recovering from the torture, Mathis acts as sort of a mentor - father figure type. Bond starts taking a relativist stand on life and Mathis makes fun of him basically.

I haven't read the book in a while and I'm still tired from being out all night...but I hope that is good.

The best advice I have is to pop on down to a Barnes and Noble and buy the book

[ckoch]

Here here. Run down and grab the book today. It is a page turner and you will thoroughly enjoy it.

While Pervis and Wade have said that some of the emotional stuff will be sorted out in Bond 22, I can't help but feel that some of these questions (ie Mathis good or evil, Vesper's real intentions after leaving for the bank, etc). may be completely cleaned up. I have a feeling that there are some answers that we may not be given at all in two years time. More questions leaving us hanging in Casino Royale than in any other Bond film wouldn't you say?

[Fro]

If it weren't for Vesper being tied up in the middle of the road (an incredibly stupid thing to do if she's working with LeChiffre since Bond is liable to run her over), it'd be easy to figure out. But then you remove the guilt from her basically allowing Bond to get tortured, which is a big reason for her suicide.

Now, Mathis could set that up if he was working with LeChiffre, but evidence points to him not working with LeChiffre (giving Bond the tracker on LeChiffre, getting two of his goons thrown in jail right in front of Bond). The thing about the poker tell is pretty easily explained away.

Edited by Fro, 18 November 2006 - 09:29 PM.

[bond_girl_double07]

Here here. Run down and grab the book today. It is a page turner and you will thoroughly enjoy it.

While Pervis and Wade have said that some of the emotional stuff will be sorted out in Bond 22, I can't help but feel that some of these questions (ie Mathis good or evil, Vesper's real intentions after leaving for the bank, etc). may be completely cleaned up. I have a feeling that there are some answers that we may not be given at all in two years time. More questions leaving us hanging in Casino Royale than in any other Bond film wouldn't you say?

I have the book in my car right now I read it about a year ago but I need a refresher clearly..

interesting point, Fro.. there are way better ways to catch bond anyway, why risk him being killed when the car flips?

[ckoch]

Now, Mathis could set that up if he was working with LeChiffre, but evidence points to him not working with LeChiffre (giving Bond the tracker on LeChiffre, getting two of his goons thrown in jail right in front of Bond). The thing about the poker tell is pretty easily explained away.

\

This is all true but sometimes you need to catch a few small fish in those two goons to land the bigger one in James Bond. Le Chiffre probably knew Bond was tracking him anyways at that point because just after they put the tracker in his inhaler, you see Mathis take off right after Le Chiffre from the Salon Private while giving James a lame excuse of going to report the evening's activities or something like that.

Who knows though really. It could go either way.

[MystikTK]

I hope friend. I loved Mathis in the book and he was cool in the movie. I thought he got a pretty bad rap honestly...

I guess it's like the Draco thing in NDOD with me...

My thoughts exactly. As Double-Oh Agent mentioned, it would almost be blasphemous to turn a beloved character from the literary world into an on-screen villain.

[PlayItBogart]

I do hate it when that happens. Reminds me of Jim Phelps from the original Mission Impossible television series. The original actor of Jim Phelps was set to reprise the role in the film, but stormed off set when he found out they were turning his character into a turncoat.

It would be amusing if in a future film, Mathis was cleared. That would be about the most awkward fictional situation ever. Almost like having a conversation with O.J. Simpson about now.