101 replies to this topic

[Pam Bouvier]

If it weren't for Vesper being tied up in the middle of the road (an incredibly stupid thing to do if she's working with LeChiffre since Bond is liable to run her over), it'd be easy to figure out. But then you remove the guilt from her basically allowing Bond to get tortured, which is a big reason for her suicide.I could be wrong here, but I thought she was working for Mr White's organization, not LeChiffre himself. I don;t think Lechiffre knew this. Vesper & Bond are saved because White's man comes and takes care of LeChiffre. When the dust settles, it's up to Vesper to get the $$ back to the organization, what was SMERSH, in the book.

Also, the girl in the road scene, reminded me very much of the MWTGG scene, from the book, where a Goodnight dummy is tied up and put on the train tracks to shake Bond up.

Now, Mathis could set that up if he was working with LeChiffre, but evidence points to him not working with LeChiffre (giving Bond the tracker on LeChiffre, getting two of his goons thrown in jail right in front of Bond). The thing about the poker tell is pretty easily explained away.

Fleming wrote Mathis as one of the good guys. That's good enough evidence for me, that he will, one way or another, be redeemed in the end

Edited by Pam Bouvier, 23 November 2006 - 04:32 AM.

[Vauxhall]

Fleming wrote Mathis as one of the good guys. That's good enough evidence for me, that he will, one way or another, be redeemed in the end

Yes, this is my opinion also. If the producers wanted a double agent to betray Bond in this way, it is unlikely that they would have chosen one of the good guys from the novels. I imagine that it would have been messing with Fleming too much. I expect Mathis to turn out as a good guy.

[Four-of-a-Kind]

im going to say that Mathis is a foe. i could be wrong but didnt he set up Vesper and Bond???

[Double-Oh Agent]

im going to say that Mathis is a foe. i could be wrong but didnt he set up Vesper and Bond???

I think that Vesper just said Mathis' name as excuse to get away from Bond. Le Chiffre is the one who actually sent the messages letting her know that the trap was set and that they were ready to capture Bond. (She couldn't say she got a call from Le Chiffre now could she? So she used Mathis' name.) Le Chiffre knew Vesper was doubling for White and him--after all she had previously informed him of his tell and refused to bankroll Bond another $5 million after his loss.

Now, Vesper may not have known that she'd get thrown in the car so suddenly and violently nor left tied up in the road, but she was in on the gambit the whole time. And Le Chiffre's mention of Mathis being his pal after Bond's accident is done to further confuse 007 and remove any remaining suspicions he might have of Vesper. That's how I see it anyway.

[Blonde Bond]

Wasn't Mathis an ally in the book series ? Or does my mind just play tricks on me ?

In either case, I believe it was just a mistrust, that Lechiffre was trying to plant in Bond's mind. I do believe,that the only "mole" was Vesper.
I hope,that in the next movie Bond and Mathis shake hands and be friends again.

[privateer]

Hey,

I'm also riding the fence about Mathis... Even though in the book, Mathis is a friend throughout.
I don't think Le Chiffre knew about the "Vesper and Mr. White" connection. Which is why I think Mr. White "interupted" the tourture and Vesper pleaded for Bonds life. She said she'd be able to get him the money if he spared Bond... A decision I'm sure he now regrets!!!


I'm unsure about Mathis for these reasons (pro and con)...

1) It's fairly obvious that it was Mathis that tipped off Le Chiffre about the "tell"

2) I believe that is the realization Bond comes to after Vesper leaves him in the resturant... Le Chiffre only confirms his suspesion.

What I don't understand is why Mathis continued to "report" to Bond after the torture scene?? He had to have known it was Le Chiffre who had taken Bond and what had happened, and... If he WAS working for Le Chiffre, he had to have suspected the possibility that Le Chiffre had "given him up". Yet, he was adding Bond as if nothing had happened. THAT'S what makes me wonder...

And that's what's so great about Casino Royale... Like a good spy novel... it keeps us guessing... "Is he one of us or one of them..."? We don't know.

November 008 we'll find out!!!

BOND's Back!!!

Happy Holidays!!

[bill007]

What the Hell are you guys taking a tengent upon?

Mathis an enemy? Let's re-focus here. Ian wrote Mathis as a good guy. Period. The Studio isn't gonna that up. IF he shows up later, which Bond films have a habit of neglecting re-ocurring roles, he will be cleared after "intense questioning."

The whole point was that 007 was betrayed by the babe.

Hey,

1) It's fairly obvious that it was Mathis that tipped off Le Chiffre about the "tell"

Bollocks! The Bitch was the turn-coat all along.

See my point at:
http://debrief.comma...showtopic=36648

[Johnboy007]

After seeing it a second time I got more of an impression that Mathis was set up. Bond seemed eager to point the finger at him and shift some of the blame from Vesper.

[MystikTK]

To add further to my earlier thoughts and to the thoughts of others who I agreed with (and as I said in my own thread), I would be extremely upset if EON took the liberty of turning Mathis into a villian. Fleming wrote him as one of Bond's most loyal allies (somewhat like a European Letier) and he has made several appearances in the literary world of 007. I simply can't see EON turning him of their own will.

Edited by MystikTK, 25 November 2006 - 03:38 AM.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I just thought of something which, to me, satisfactorily clears up a couple of things regarding some of the major unanswered questions of the film.

Vesper was clearly a double agent the entire time, but she was working ONLY for Mr. White's organization and not Le Chiffre. However, since White's organization wanted Le Chiffre to win, White was keenly interested in anything Vesper happened to learn from Bond. Consequently, she told White of Le Chiffre's tell and Bond's homing device and then White, in turn, informed Le Chiffre. While doing so, White also revealed that his informer was Mathis and not Vesper, thereby protecting his real source. (No need to let Le Chiffre or any of his henchmen know of Vesper's duplicity should any of them survive the organization's upcoming assassination attempts on them, thereby allowing them the possibility of spilling the beans to the British of the organization's well-placed mole.)

This theory explains how Le Chiffre learned of the tell while still keeping Mathis a good guy. (Heck, Mathis had transported two of Bond's stairwell victims and eliminated two of Le Chiffre's cronies--both with Bond's full knowledge--so he HAS to be a good guy, his longstanding friendship with 007 in the novels notwithstanding.) Such a scenario also explains why Le Chiffre tells Bond that Mathis is his friend and why Le Chiffre left Vesper lying in the road and was (presumably) willing to torture her.

I'm still not sure how to fully explain Vesper's phone messages that were supposedly from Mathis, however.

[Vauxhall]

Fantastic explanation 'Double-Oh Agent' I've been trying to piece it together over the last few days, but you've cleared up the gaps I had.

I also had a slight struggle in explaining the phone messages but based on your argument, I've formulated a theory. After the poker game, Mr White decides that he wants Le Chiffre eliminated. To do so, he needs to get him away from the casino. As a means to do so, he persuades Le Chiffre to capture Bond and take him to his barge. This way, Mr White knows exactly where to find Le Chiffre and isolates him from calling for possible help. I suggest that Vesper didn't know that she was going to be captured by Le Chiffre, but that it was all part of Mr White's agreement with Le Chiffre that he could get Bond. Consequently, it was Mr White that sent Vesper a message saying "Meet me outside. Say Mathis needs you" - realising that this would arouse Bond's suspicion.

Hmmm don't think I've explained it that well, but hopefully the gist of my argument is clear!

[Blonde Bond]

Consequently, it was Mr White that sent Vesper a message saying "Meet me outside. Say Mathis needs you" - realising that this would arouse Bond's suspicion.

Using the novel as basic backstory, I too think, that was the case with the scene there and how Mathis was intentionally framed.

Edited by Blonde Bond, 25 November 2006 - 01:27 PM.

[MystikTK]

Consequently, it was Mr White that sent Vesper a message saying "Meet me outside. Say Mathis needs you" - realising that this would arouse Bond's suspicion.

Using the novel as basic backstory, I too think, that was the case with the scene there and how Mathis was intentionally framed.

SPOILERS (NOVEL) (highlight to read)


Suddendly the note to Vesper seemed odd to him. It was not the way Mathis would do things. He would have asked them both to join him at the bar of the casino or he would have joined them in the night-club, whatever his clothes. They would have laughed together and Mathis would have been excited. He had much to tell Bond, more than Bond had to tell him. The arrest of the Bulgarian, who had probably talked some more; the chase after the man with the stick; Le Chiffre's movements when he left the casino.


Obviously there's more, but that's all I felt like typing at the moment. Basically, Bond rushes out of the night-club, only to see Vesper being shoved into the back of Le Chiffre's car. He then gives chase in his Bentley.

I'd also type the scenes in the hospital where Mathis visits Bond, specifically the one where Bond opens up to him and shares his inner-most thoughts about the morality of his profession, but they're much too long. They're chapters 19-20, for those that are wondering. It's interesting to note that the scene in the film where Bond awakes and sees Vesper and Mathis and does not want to see Mathis is actually somewhat reversed in the novel. When Bond awakes, it is only Mathis who greets him and it is Vesper that Bond does not want to see (although not out of suspicion, he is simply not ready for the "test" of a beautiful woman after his torture).

Edited by MystikTK, 25 November 2006 - 06:05 PM.

[the villain's architect]

Sorry, I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but in addition to the ones I read:
I think Mathis stays a good guy. Le Chiffre tried to increase Bond's desperation with his hint and wanted to dipel Bond's suspect to Vesper so that Bond stayed concerned about her during his own torture.

From a filmmaking standpoint, the way Mathis was put away in the Lake Como scene to me is a good way to give him no possibility to clear himself of the suspect. They want to keep this uncertainty until Bond 22, where Bond and he become real friends.

[skewered lamb]

Double-Oh Agent and Vauxhall, I like both your explanations but have a question. How does the message sent to Vesper saying the Americans are going to contact/pick-up LeChiffre in the morning factor into your theories? If it was Mr. White who sent Vesper the message, how would he know this, as I assume only Bond, Vesper, Leiter, and possibly Mathis would have this information?

Also, can anybody give a rundown of that scene when Vesper gets the two messages. I've only seen the movie once and can't recall the specifics. I was hoping to have a working theory that satisfactorily explains these events before seeing it again this weekend with a couple who are bound to ask what is going on.

[wendy54]

I just thought of something which, to me, satisfactorily clears up a couple of things regarding some of the major unanswered questions of the film.

Vesper was clearly a double agent the entire time, but she was working ONLY for Mr. White's organization and not Le Chiffre. However, since White's organization wanted Le Chiffre to win, White was keenly interested in anything Vesper happened to learn from Bond. Consequently, she told White of Le Chiffre's tell and Bond's homing device and then White, in turn, informed Le Chiffre. While doing so, White also revealed that his informer was Mathis and not Vesper, thereby protecting his real source. (No need to let Le Chiffre or any of his henchmen know of Vesper's duplicity should any of them survive the organization's upcoming assassination attempts on them, thereby allowing them the possibility of spilling the beans to the British of the organization's well-placed mole.)

This theory explains how Le Chiffre learned of the tell while still keeping Mathis a good guy. (Heck, Mathis had transported two of Bond's stairwell victims and eliminated two of Le Chiffre's cronies--both with Bond's full knowledge--so he HAS to be a good guy, his longstanding friendship with 007
in the novels notwithstanding.) Such a scenario also explains why Le Chiffre tells Bond that Mathis is his friend and why Le Chiffre left Vesper lying in the road and was (presumably) willing to torture her.

I'm still not sure how to fully explain Vesper's phone messages that were supposedly from Mathis, however.

Great explanation. I would also add that White would have killed Le Chiffre regardless of whether he won the tournament, as he made the organization look bad by mismanaging the funds. I would also agree with one of the earlier posts...White likely was behind the text message..that's the only explanation if we're assuming that Le Chiffre didn't know about Vesper's affiliation.

HOWEVER, this all assumes that White knew about the tournament and Le Chiffre's efforts to win back the lost money...and that Le CHiffre knew that White knew....if that makes any sense. And I believe (though I could be wrong) that in the book, Le Chiffre is attempting to win this money back without SPECTRE's (the Organization in the movie) knowledge...

If this is true, any explanations as to how Le Chiffre learned that Bond knew his tell without Vesper or White telling him directly (and assuming that Mathis is innocent)?

[skewered lamb]

There's a moment when Mathis explains to Vesper what's happening in the card game and he says something along the lines of LeChiffre's bluffing... I think. (Or is my memory wrong?) They are standing closer to LeChiffre than Bond so it might be possible he or one of his henchmen overheard. Might also explain "your friend Mathis is my friend" in that LeChiffre considered the overheard information quite helpful, though that's a bit of a stretch.

[Mister Asterix]

Double-Oh Agent and Vauxhall, I like both your explanations but have a question. How does the message sent to Vesper saying the Americans are going to contact/pick-up LeChiffre in the morning factor into your theories? If it was Mr. White who sent Vesper the message, how would he know this, as I assume only Bond, Vesper, Leiter, and possibly Mathis would have this information?

Also, can anybody give a rundown of that scene when Vesper gets the two messages. I've only seen the movie once and can't recall the specifics. I was hoping to have a working theory that satisfactorily explains these events before seeing it again this weekend with a couple who are bound to ask what is going on.

[mra]We have to remember that Le Chiffre was not going to be arrested, he was going to be

[George Kaplan]

And I believe (though I could be wrong) that in the book, Le Chiffre is attempting to win this money back without SPECTRE's (the Organization in the movie) knowledge...

I finished the book over the weekend.

Le Chiffre is the paymaster for a union in Northern France that is basically a communist front. He funneled money from the payroll to fund his personal purchase of a series of brothels before France enacted legislation that radically cracked down on prostitution. Le Chiffre lost a lot of money and running the baccarat table is his way to quickly get the money back into the payroll before SMERSH finds him. SMERSH is the group in the USSR that finds individuals who have betrayed the country and kills them.

If this is true, any explanations as to how Le Chiffre learned that Bond knew his tell without Vesper or White telling him directly (and assuming that Mathis is innocent)?

The thing that I thought when watching the film was that Le Chiffre knew what his tell was all along, and intentionally planned on using that tell to get any "smart" players out of the game. That's why he's so frustrated with himself later on when he catches himself.

[RevolveR]

Mathis is a friend. Leaving things open-ended was interesting and helped prove the point that Bond no longer trusted anyone.

Someone may have mentioned it before, but recall the fact that Vesper was surprised when Bond told her that Mathis was a foe. She probably didn't realize that he had become the fall guy for her actions, and this upsets her.

If Bond 22 plays like a sequel, look for Mathis to be back.

Edited by RevolveR, 30 November 2006 - 12:03 AM.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

If Bond 22 plays like a sequel, look for Mathis to be back.

I certainly hope so...

I just fear they'll make him into a villian...NDOD all over again.

[DanMan]

I think it would be an interesting twist. Plus GG is a fantastic actor and I'm sure he would be an interesting villian.

[wendy54]

Oops..I think in an earlier post I said "SPECTRE" instead of "SMERSH."...thanks for catching that....

I suppose it is plausible that Le Chiffre did the "tell" on purpose the first time...He seems awfully smug when he tells Bond "I guess you thought I was bluffing" and then awfully angry when he did it inadvertantly the second. This solves the problem i was having with who gave Le Chiffre the tell...I didn't think it could be Vesper since I didn't think that Le Chiffre knew she was working for White..and I also didn't think Mathis was dirty..

of course, that still leaves the question of who told Le Chiffre about the tracking device....

[George Kaplan]

I've done the same thing with SPECTRE and SMERSH...you can't imagine the number of times as well!

The tracking device is a bit harder to explain. Of course it could be that someone ELSE on Bond's side is the real traitor (which could explain both the tell and the tracking device, I suppose).

But the easiest thing I can think of is that someone saw the agents shoot something in Bond's arm. I mean they did it - as I remember it - right after Bond came back from Florida and found Solange had been killed. It wouldn't be too hard to think that someone there could have tipped Le Chiffre off about what had happened. Le Chiffre was probably using his own contacts to get an idea of what was going on.

Or something.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I think I've figured out the Mathis phone messages question.

This follows the train of thought I posted in an earlier thread where Mathis is innocent and that Vesper told Mr. White of Le Chiffre's tell and Bond's homer and White passing the information on to Le Chiffre.

Vesper's first text message about Le Chiffre being contacted by the Americans really did come from Mathis. (Which also explains Le Chiffre's confidence that he'll get immunity from prosecution for Bond's murder.) The second text message, however, came from White who said he wanted to meet with Vesper but to tell Bond the message came from Mathis. So Vesper does so and leaves the hotel only to suddenly be thrown into the back of Le Chiffre's car--having been set up as bait for Bond by White and Le Chiffre.

My guess is White knows about Le Chiffre's torture plan of Bond and has given his and the organization's consent for it so they can get the money. While the kidnapping is going on, White is waiting for Le Chiffre near the banker's boat as White prepares to assassinate Le Chiffre as soon as he gets the money.

Bond realizes there's a problem with Mathis' messages because 1) it's unlikely Mathis would send two messages back-to-back when it would have been just as easy to add the need to meet at the end of the first message and 2) the doubt of the second message reminds him that someone informed Le Chiffre of his tell and he realizes Mathis was one of two people who knew about the tell--and since it "can't" be Vesper, it "has" to be Mathis.

Le Chiffre's plan to get Bond alone and out in the open works as Bond races after them. However, unbeknownst to White, Le Chiffre who doesn't know that Vesper is White's informant, puts her in jeopardy by laying her out in the road, which causes Bond's wreck.

Later, after a bit of torturing, White comes to the realization that Bond won't talk and decides to cut his losses by killing Le Chiffre's henchmen. Vesper realizes that White will kill Bond in the process, so she bargains with White during which time she agrees to get the money (which she can because Bond trusts her) if he will spare Bond's life. White makes the deal because $115 million is better than none and then goes out and kills Le Chiffre, letting Bond survive.

Hopefully, my scenario isn't too complicated, but this part of the script makes it almost impossible not to be. Nevertheless, I'm more confident about my previous post regarding Le Chiffre's tell than I am here.

[Mister Asterix]

I think you are overcomplicating things. Vesper was giving information directly to Le Chiffre who was well connected enough to know who Bond was and know who Vesper was and what her situation was.

[wendy54]

I think you are overcomplicating things. Vesper was giving information directly to Le Chiffre who was well connected enough to know who Bond was and know who Vesper was and what her situation was.

Yes, you're probably right

The problem I have with that though is why Le Chiffre would leave Vesper in the middle of the road to possibly be killed if he knew her affiliation (which he would know if she was directly giving him information)...why would he need to torture Bond at all at that point? Couldn't he just use Vesper in the same way that White does later? The only thing I can think of (and I think somebody else said something similar in another post) is that Le Chiffre simply did not have the time to wait for Bond to deposit the money and for Vesper to withdraw it for him...After all, as has been said, Le Chiffre is well connected and smart enough to know that White must be on to him and it's only a matter of time before White gets tired of the games and comes after him..

And I suppose that this would "out" one of their moles (MI6 would be none too happy...) and I'm assuming that wouldn't be ideal...and if Vesper isn't working directly for Le Chiffre, I would assume he wouldn't have the authority (or it certainly wouldn't be in his best interest) to start messing with White's contacts....

[Mister Asterix]

The problem I have with that though is why Le Chiffre would leave Vesper in the middle of the road to possibly be killed if he knew her affiliation (which he would know if she was directly giving him information)...

Why wouldn’t he? Most likely he had the account number already and as far as he was concerned Vesper was supposed to make sure he won the poker game. She dramatically failed at that.

...why would he need to torture Bond at all at that point? Couldn't he just use Vesper in the same way that White does later? The only thing I can think of (and I think somebody else said something similar in another post) is that Le Chiffre simply did not have the time to wait for Bond to deposit the money and for Vesper to withdraw it for him...After all, as has been said, Le Chiffre is well connected and smart enough to know that White must be on to him and it's only a matter of time before White gets tired of the games and comes after him..

Yes, there was no time.

And I suppose that this would "out" one of their moles (MI6 would be none too happy...) and I'm assuming that wouldn't be ideal...and if Vesper isn't working directly for Le Chiffre, I would assume he wouldn't have the authority (or it certainly wouldn't be in his best interest) to start messing with White's contacts....

I would assume Mr White wouldn’t care so long as Le Chiffre gets the money. But it makes me wonder if Mr White was there all along and when he saw Bond would not succumb to the torture he decided it was time for ‘Plan B’.

Now, I’m probably overthinking it.

[Tuxedo]

im going to say that Mathis is a foe. i could be wrong but didnt he set up Vesper and Bond???

I think that Vesper just said Mathis' name as excuse to get away from Bond. Le Chiffre is the one who actually sent the messages letting her know that the trap was set and that they were ready to capture Bond. (She couldn't say she got a call from Le Chiffre now could she? So she used Mathis' name.) Le Chiffre knew Vesper was doubling for White and him--after all she had previously informed him of his tell and refused to bankroll Bond another $5 million after his loss.

Now, Vesper may not have known that she'd get thrown in the car so suddenly and violently nor left tied up in the road, but she was in on the gambit the whole time. And Le Chiffre's mention of Mathis being his pal after Bond's accident is done to further confuse 007 and remove any remaining suspicions he might have of Vesper. That's how I see it anyway.

I see it exactly the same way, Double Oh Agent. And I would love to see Mathis in Bond 22 if it is really set to begin where CR ends.

Edited by Tuxedo, 30 November 2006 - 04:37 PM.

[George Kaplan]

...why would he need to torture Bond at all at that point? Couldn't he just use Vesper in the same way that White does later? The only thing I can think of (and I think somebody else said something similar in another post) is that Le Chiffre simply did not have the time to wait for Bond to deposit the money and for Vesper to withdraw it for him...After all, as has been said, Le Chiffre is well connected and smart enough to know that White must be on to him and it's only a matter of time before White gets tired of the games and comes after him..

Yes, there was no time.

No time doesn't make sense to me; it was an electronic transfer that could have been handled in seconds if Vesper wanted to push it ("Lets get business done before pleasure" or some other simple line) and Bond would have probably been too pre-occupied to notice anything odd until it was too late (much like he does anyhow).

It just doesn't strike me that Vesper is working at all for Le Chiffre when I look back on the film.