141 replies to this topic

[JimmyBond]

I agree with you on Goldeneye. Despite my dislike of certain aspects of it (I detail them in my thread, go find it ). It is consistent all the way through, GE and TND I would argue are two technically well made Bond films, TWINE and DAD have their fair shares of problems, but I enjoy DAD as I've noted before despite some of it's flaws.

[Pierce_Brosnan]

I am offended! Comparing TWINE, my 2nd favorite James Bond flim of all time, V.S a movie in my bottom 5? Well for me the answer is obvious and for many reasons I will post later.

[JimmyBond]

No offense. But you're offended because people don't agree with you? Welcome to the real world...and the board

[Qwerty]

I am offended!

All I can say is you may want to steer clear of the Pierce Brosnan section of these forums then. Both TWINE and DAD receive their fair (although maybe not always ) share of admiration and slamming.

[Hitchcock Bond]

I enjoyed both TWINE and DAD in the theatre but in retrospect both seem to suffer similarly from not fully realising the potential they both had. Both seemed to set up a 'personal' storyline: guilt over his part in Elektra King's father in TWINE and betrayal and capture in DAD. Instead of pursuing these courses they both turned into Bond battling to avoid major catastrophes through weapons of mass destruction. Both had poorly defined (IMO) villains: Renard just didn't seem like an international terrorist, and Graves as 'alter ego' of Bond didn't seem to ring true. The denouement of both films was disappointing. Renard, who supposedly has greatly increased strength, just hangs about while Bond loads up his airline projectile. It would have been so much better dealt with by Renard seemingly winning over Bond, and just as he seems he will kill Bond the bullet that we have already been told will kill him does so. With Graves, they seem to have tried to give us the gamut of Bond villain deaths: he is an Oriental (albeit genetically altered) who has mechanical hands who can't hold on to the plane he has been sucked out of because he is being electrocuted. The love interests from both films were also similar: European girl = bad, American girl = good, and both seemed to focus on 'action' girls like a version of Lara Croft. If I had to choose between the two I would say TWINE is better because it had a good last scene from Desmond Llewellyn and wasn

[Jericho_One]

Basically:

Die another Day:
-Iceberg Surfing;
-Invisible Aston Martin;
-Madonna;
-Madonna's song;
-Crazy CGI;
-Some crappy, rather forced, dialogue.

The World is not Enough:
-Denise Richards:
-BMW totally out of place in that region of the globe;

Well, Die another Day looses.

[The Richmond Spy]

As I expected, Die Another Day has pretty much pulled away with it. 21-11 right now. Looks like your opinion has been reflected by others Pierce_Brosnan

[triviachamp]

Tough Question, both are extremely poor.

[WhiteKnight2000]

TWINE is the worst of the two. The action scenes weren't up to scratch. The Villain was miscast and underused. Apart from that it did have some good dialogue.

Edited by WhiteKnight2000, 29 June 2006 - 07:22 PM.

[Strangelove]

I definately have to vote for DAD as the worse of the two. At least TWINE has the beautiful Sophie Marceau. DAD has a grown up Richie Rich in a RoboCop suit.

[J.B.]

I think I am the only one in all of CBn who enjoyed both films and I like them both now.

With that said, I will say that Jinx was THE worst link in DAD for me. POOR acting by Berry that I couldnt get around when watching this film the first time. Now that I have watched it many times I can see past her.

OTOH, TWINE had it's weak points too. Christmas Jones did NOT look the part at all. I saw this the first time I saw this film as well.

But, my answer would be that I think DAD was the worse only because of the CGI they used. It looked rather fake. The invisible car looked more real than some of total computer help used in the film.

I think that Brosnan's acting lifted the poor writing and characters of both films.

As I have said before, his talent was greatly underused in his years as Bond...wish he had had more...

[Scottlee]

It took me all of two seconds to vote for DAD, which is by far my least favourite Bond film. By contrast, TWINE is my favourite Brosnan entry and probably merits a place in a my favourite 6 or 7 Bond films of all time. It will forever remain the one picture that truly brightened up my otherwise depressing student years between 99-03.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

The World is not Enough is the worse of these two. At least in Die Another Day, Bond doesn't get all sappy over the film's villainess and acts less like the "sensitive '90s Bond". In DAD, Bond's back to the politically incorrect, cigar smoking, international ladykiller who loves 'em and leaves 'em. Also, DAD does feature Bond in more espionage and "Cold War"-ish situations, with North Korea standing in for the former U.S.S.R. whereas TWINE puts Bond in the middle of an 1980s type-oil soap opera situation. I want Bond to be involved in international intrigue, not a rerun of Dallas or The Colbys.

[mccartney007]

I had to choose THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH simply because it was the only Bond film I'd ever been underwhelmed by when I first saw it in the theatre. DIE ANOTHER DAY has too many fond memories attached to it.

[Geof]

Die Another Day is unquestionably worse, if for no other reason than it was the 40th Anniversary film, and should've been treated and presented as such. But no, somebody thought it'd be a better idea to include a non-topless Halle Berry, Madonna, and Robocop. You know what's the sole redeeming factor of this movie? The Vanquish, and even that's been made silly by giving it an invisibility feature.

[Hitokiri]

Die Another Day is the worst by a long-shot. I can seriously stomach Brosnan's attempt at showing emotion, Denise Richards doing nothing, and the cardboard euro-trash villain Renard over Jynnx ("Yo mama"), Robo-Graves, the invisible car, absolutely horrible CGI (wind-surfing, Jynnx's jump off the cliff, the gunbarrel), the 'surprising' plot twist, "London Calling", and Brosnan putting on about twenty years and fifty pounds following the PTS.

There are just so many things wrong with DAD.

[ChronoBreak]

Hmmm... With these two films, it all really comes down to whether I'd rather watch Pierce Brosnan's futile attempts at emoting or his ace work phoning it in.

Ultimately, I'll go for Die Another Day. While Brosnan's work in TWINE registers as my least favorite Bond performance ever (and really, it's almost completely anti-Bond), at least it has the splendid finale in that castle-esque place. And Elektra was a good villainness, despite her pretentious philosophizing.

[CJB]

Die Another Day is much worse. I can manage to sit through TWINE, and even enjoy it for what it is, a mindless action flick. But DAD, I just cannot stand this piece of trash. The writing was AWFUL, the acting was AWFUL, everything about the movie was positively AWFUL. Marceau in TWINE was better than all the actors in DAD combined.

[DamnCoffee]

I'm actually very fond of TWINE (minus the big breasted bimbo which the film would have done better without ) The first half of DAD was great ahnd it was going in a promising direction ie: Torture etc.. but it was spoiled later on thats what DAD got my vote, TWINE is one of Brosnans stronger Bonds imo.

[Evil Doctor Cheese Returns]

DAD = bad TWINE = sublime.

Just a little rhyme to help you remember the difference.

G x

[Zorin Industries]

I definitely think that THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH is the weaker film. DIE ANOTHER DAY still has it's faults (from Iceland on mainly), but the 1999 effort was Brosnan's real faux-pas.

On paper THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH is a great set-up for a Bond film - oil feuds, a cracking title sequence and song, a much needed female villain and an attempt at OHMSS's leather-bound tone and visual grandeur.

Unfortunately a few things derail the film early on and it becomes almost dull TV movie ticking off the Bond fans wish list rather than moving the series on in any credible way. The ELEKTRA character (which the film took it's original title from) is slaughtered at the hands of Purvis and Wade's screenplay - not to mention Sophie Marceau's casting. She is usually a strong actress, but her enthusings about how "the oil pumps through my veins" and her amateur dramatic protestations ("you'll never catch me James") is 1980's Disney.

'M' is used far too much and should never have been kidnapped in that terrible end-of-series three cop drama way. 'M's history with the King family is workable, but the narrative's back-history quickly becomes more interesting than what's going on in plot itself and that is a fault of the script.

The film is also peppered with too many characters. There is no consistency to the villainy. And there is certainly no excusing the casting of Denise Richards who screams studio casting favour. It takes a lot to make MARY GOODNIGHT look cutting edge, but CHRISTMAS JONES achieves that from the start. BOND and JONES turn into some DR WHO Uncle and his neice assistant double-act. There is very little chemistry between the characters and even less between the actors.

The set pieces are okay, but feel shoe-horned into the plot by a second unit that has been looking too hard to up the ante. The opening prologue in Bilbao is very effective. The opening shot of Brosnan in a hurry is cool and immediate - factors Brosnan always needed more of. But then it all goes downhill with the boat chase that feels like it was added just because media leaching Labour councillors granted all the requisite permissions. Had it been a film or two later, the direction would have been brave enough to break it all up with a title sequence in between KING being murdered and BOND jumping in the Q Boat. But Apted's pace in the first act - and throughout the film - is uneven and relentlessly signposted.

THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH has the makings of being more interesting in time. Oddly, the time of release (1999 / 2000) meant it was straddling two centuries resulting in the film becoming not entirely sure which era it wants to pay homage to.

Whilst DIE ANOTHER DAY is not perfect, it is a far superior effort. If we buy into the MOONRAKER excess and excuse its last act, the plot of DIE ANOTHER DAY has a political, global urgency to it. Lee Tamahori successfully sends the series on its way towards CASINO ROYALE's panther-like pace, character bravado and narrative sadism.

DIE ANOTHER DAY feels a lot more contemporary than THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH. Granted, it still has second unit excesses that shave away at the logic of the script (and it should have climaxed things nicely in the ice palace). 'M' has a greater involvement in the story even though she has less to do. The Q Lab underground sequences are shot beautifully and give Brosnan's era its first real Cold War atmosphere. The history of Bond is laid out before the audience in that one shot of Brosnan solo in the subway tunnels. It doesn't need the conveyor belt of old gadgets to remind us who Bond is.

But like all Bond films. They are what they are. Each one is part of the chain and they all feed into each other. CASINO ROYALE would probably have not been made in the way it was has THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH taken its narrative gambles with a female villain, the beginnings of the Bond series new obsession with torture and taking Bond out of that Universal Exports familiarity.

Edited by Zorin Industries, 21 January 2007 - 01:47 PM.

[Publius]

What hurt TWINE most is that it made Bond into a sap. He was emotionally vulnerable, but unlike in OHMSS or CR, it blinded him and drained him of his cool. Not to mention he didn't have reason to be vulnerable given how much of an annoying bitch Elektra King was.

What hurt TWINE second most is unexciting action that wasn't even remotely integrated into the plot. Address the former, and TWINE becomes a solid if a bit boring Bond film. Address the latter, and it's at least reasonably fun regardless. Address both and you have a truly respectable movie. As it stands, however, it's just a mediocre, ho-hum Bond flick.

And yet...DAD is an even worse offender. Although it rose to greater heights at times than TWINE could ever hope to, its lows were as abysmal as they come in cinema. The dialogue was simply the worst I've ever heard in something other than a B-movie, the acting arguably worse (which I still have a hard time wrapping my head around), and the action lamer than that of TWINE, mostly because of a blatantly lazy reliance on bad CGI. Maybe if the story was good I could forgive some of this, but alas it wasn't, not even close.

So TWINE was pretentious, but was more consistent with some bright spots (Denise Richards, the submarine finale, Valentin a much more welcome presence than in GE). DAD was not pretentious, but still managed to blow its lower standards, and severely at that, with such nonsense as Halle Berry, non-existent action (instead we had computer doodling), and the complete absence of actual humor and, well, fun. At least the sword fight was cool, I guess?

Anyway, Die Another Day it is.

[Thunderfinger]

I only saw DAD because I thought they couldn

[Colossus]

Die Another Day is the worse of two evils.

[Agent 0015]

Both are pretty bad, but DAD is terrible .

[Professor Dent]

I enjoy both movies with the difference being I can watch all of TWINE but I generally skip the last part of DAD (I usually cut it right before digital Bond goes surfing). I liked a lot of the tie-ins with DAD from previous movies but it has too many just bad points: bad title song, bad Madonna cameo, invisible car, Halle Berry, robo-Graves, & just too many digital effects that are obvious.

[yolt13]

Well, I really enjoy them both, but they do have their flaws.

TWINE borrows elements from Kingsley Amis' COLONEL SUN but fails to use them to any real effect. Specifically, the capture and imprisonment of M is a nice idea, but one never gets the sense that Bond is out to save her or even necessarily aware that she's in jeopardy. This is a waste of a great plot point from a novel rivaling the "Leiter fed to a shark" bit from Fleming's LALD that was rather poorly handled in LTK. A story where M is compromised and Bond is charged with rescuing her or, if that fails, killing her to keep her from revealing secrets would be a great premise, but TWINE does nothing with it. The movie also never does much with the Renard character, setting up his unique "ability" but wasting him in a plot built around the revelation that he isn't really the main villain at all. And of course, Denise Richards is not unpleasant to look at but is quite unconvincing as a nuclear scientist, seeming a bit too young for both that field and as a romantic interest for 007.

DAD starts out with a great concept but also squanders it. The film could easily have been a story about Bond being suspect and trying to prove his innocence while he is being hunted by both his enemies and his own government. Instead, it establishes the idea of 007 being considered a security risk and going rogue, only to shift gears and become an even more cartoonish, silly version of DAF at the midway point. Even this might have worked if the second half of DAD was half as well written or acted as that earlier film. While Sean Connery and Jill St. John had chemistry and a funny Tom Mankiewicz script to carry them through the frothy DAF, Brosnan and Halle Berry never generate any sparks trading some of the WORST sexual banter ever written for any movie. Similarly, Charles Grey could carry off rather ridiculous wisecracks with his natural charisma and presence, but Toby Stephens is no match for the awkward dialogue provided by writers Neal Purvis and Robert Wade in their embarassingly self-referential script. Finally, the film commits the ultimate sin for a Bond movie - it replaces breathtaking stunts with painfully obvious green screen CG effects.

Both movies also suffer from an apparent lack of new ideas on the part of the writers. Beyond the great boat chase in TWINE's PTS and the fencing duel between Bond and Graves in DAD, there aren't many action moments that stand out in either film. History has shown that in a Bond movie, great action can compensate for plotholes and logic flaws. When the action sequences are fairly standard stuff, the rest of the weaknesses glare like a death ray from a diamond-coated satellite.

So which is worse? Hard to say. TWINE does less with more, story-wise, and fails to be much fun by Bond standards. DAD is fun as long as one is able to overlook its numerous shortcomings and check one's brain and expectations at the door. I'd say they're about even in the final analysis, with TWINE getting the slightest edge for maintaining a more consistent tone from start to finish and not wallowing in self-satisfied, "wink wink, nudge nudge" hat tips to the series' past. I love and enjoy them both for what they are, but I do consider them the weaker half of Brosnan's four film run.

Edited by yolt13, 24 January 2007 - 03:35 AM.

[Gothamite]

Was TWINE even that bad?

[yolt13]

Was TWINE even that bad?

Fans, by definition, see "okay" as "bad" and "bad" as "horrible", etc. It's virtually impossible for a fanatic to be even the tiniest bit objective. So the answer is no, TWINE is really not that bad at all. For that matter, even DAD with all its flaws is still better and more satisfying than the majority of action films released theatrically during that time period. As films, both have some major problems and fail to deliver on their promising set-ups. But ask a question like this to the casual moviegoer and they'll think you're nuts, because they likely enjoyed both films (if box-office is any indication). Only among fans will you see discussions of TWINE and DAD peppered with comparisons to earlier films and literary Bond outings or loaded with almost zealous derision for elements that would never distract from ordinary folks' enjoyment of a movie.

[Agent Carter]

Interesting. I tried watching DAD today and can't get past the laser death scene without turning it off. To me the WORSE Bond film. BLECH!