141 replies to this topic

[Mr_Wint]

TWINE: "This is a game I can't afford to play" - Grating, pretenious and meaningless, pretending to be something with substance.
TWINE is worse

I disagree. The casino scene in TWINE was on of the best parts of the film, particularly the short gamble between Zukovskij and Elektra. I love the elegance and classic Bond-atmosphere and Brosnan really shines in this scene. "Elektra... this is a game I can not afford to play" - perfect.

[JimmyBond]

But why is it a game he can't afford to play? Any other Bond would gladly play.

[Jim]

TWINE is Bond on downers. DUD is Bond on crack. Both are equally bad for you.

[Tarl_Cabot]

But why is it a game he can't afford to play? Any other Bond would gladly play.

Yes,they would.And win. And then take her home and give her a good rogering and not fall hopelssly in love with her...and there would be charming john barry music in the background, not this overly taking ourselves too serious nonsense...Ok, I think I need to check out DUD and see if I change my mind!

[scottright]

This puts me squarely in the minority, but I happen to love TWINE. I think it's a terrific Bond movie. Brosnan's terrific in it (that line about "a game I can't afford to play" is about Bond unwillingness to be drawn in emotionally - and it works well in the context of the film). The movie also benefits from a largely terrific cast (the sole exception being the unbearable Denise Richards) and a plot that's actually about something people really do wicked things over - oil.

All things considered, TWINE is Brosnan's best Bond - and I just can't believe the lack of love it gets here.

As for DAD...ugh. I'd put it just above TMWTGG and AVTAK - the bottom of the barrel Bonds.

[DLibrasnow]

I HATE THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH

and I like the first two-thirds of DIE ANOTHER DAY.

So it's no contest really, THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH is an abomination.

[JimmyBond]

Brosnan's terrific in it (that line about "a game I can't afford to play" is about Bond unwillingness to be drawn in emotionally - and it works well in the context of the film).

Perhaps it would work better if Brosnan wasnt playing a character that has been defined by 18 previous movies. Connery's Bond would never allow himself to be drawn in emotionally, I also can't see the literally Bond allowing it either, seeing as how he's had it happen twice in the past to devestating consequences.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Brosnan's terrific in it (that line about "a game I can't afford to play" is about Bond unwillingness to be drawn in emotionally - and it works well in the context of the film).

Perhaps it would work better if Brosnan wasnt playing a character that has been defined by 18 previous movies. Connery's Bond would never allow himself to be drawn in emotionally, I also can't see the literally Bond allowing it either, seeing as how he's had it happen twice in the past to devestating consequences.

It's a rubbish line and makes him look like a total pansy.Why does James effing Bond need to be lectured by some spoiled brat about how to live life dangerously?

[tigerheart]

Could be a bit difficult, this one...they're both among my least favourite Bond films.

TWINE - enjoyed Sophie Marceau, the return of Zukovsky, Robert Carlyle as the villain and the darker edge of the story. Giving M an emotional attachment to Elektra (that subsequently put her in danger) struck me as a somewhat obvious move, but nowhere near as obvious as Denise Richards as the Bond girl.

DAD - saw it at the cinema and the opening half, two-thirds was fun enough, but the end was thoroughly disappointing. I had high expectations for it as the '40th anniversary Bond' but it was distinctly less than memorable overall.

So DAD has it by a nose as the worst of a middling pair, IMO.

[Mr_Wint]

What "any other Bond" would do or not do is completely irrelevant. The whole idea with this film was to have Bond fall in love with the leading lady (more than usual) and then kill her when she betrays him.

Bond can't afford to play this game with Elektra as this might jeopardise his mission and he was specifically told by M not to bed Elektra. Also, at this point, Bond understands that the so-called game was a payment. That's why Bond suspects that Elektra is playing a game with him (and that's why he leaves her after the act). What's the problem?

If you think it is inappropriate for the Bond character to fall in love that's up to you. Or, if you think the filmmakers failed to convince you that Bond actually fell in love that's also fine. But please, don't lower this to a childish level and ask what Connery, Moore or Dalton would do in a similar situation. They are just actors, reading lines.

DAD is worse.

[Harmsway]

Bond can't afford to play this game with Elektra as this might jeopardise his mission and he was specifically told by M not to bed Elektra. Also, at this point, Bond understands that the so-called game was a payment. That's why Bond suspects that Elektra is playing a game with him (and that's why he leaves her after the act). What's the problem?

That it, and the rest of the movie, is done in this heavy-handed mode that just tries to feel oh-so-serious and gritty, but it isn't really. The whole movie just feels pretentious.

But please, don't lower this to a childish level and ask what Connery, Moore or Dalton would do in a similar situation. They are just actors, reading lines.

How is it childish? It's just saying what the Bond characterizations they played would have done in the same place - pointing out where Brosnan is differing from them, and that is being used to illustrate where it's gone wrong.

DAD is worse.

Nah. Not only does DIE ANOTHER DAY manage to have some vitality, which TWINE doesn't, it manages to stay truer to the hypermasculinity of Bond. TWINE takes it and turns Bond into a weepy, female-fantasy figure. Doesn't work.

[medrecess]

I think TWINE is worse as it seems repetetive.It has a plot which is not easy to understand.TWINE has nothing new to offer.In that way DAD had an outstanding opening sequence and IMOP the first half was very exciting.I agree
that the second half is very bad.Once he goes to Iceland it is on the decline.

IMO DAD could have been a great film if they had done away with the second half and Bond had stayed on in Korea.

[Mr Malcolm]

To be honest, I don't really see TWINE as terribly pretentious. Heavy handed in executing its ideas, yes, but not overly pretentious as such. Maybe it's just the inconsistent tone, but I don't really get the impression that Michael Apted was hunched behind the camera muttering, 'must make Quality film, must make Quality film!' I would criticise TWINE for inconsistency, and failing to develop and botching its ideas rather than pretentiousness. I feel that any parts where the film feels as though it is taking itself too seriously are only really jarring when set against the more frivolous aspects, such as Denise Richards, Zukovsky, the X-ray specs scene (that was in Spy Hard for God's sake!), That Final Line, etc.

I agree that Bond is a bit of a big softy here, but what about M? Tearfully confessing to Bond that she'd used Elektra as bait? Flying out to see Elektra becuase she feels guilty? I wouldn't want her as the head of my secret service!

For all its flaws, I do find TWINE entertaining enough from time to time. It just doesn't leave me with as big a smile on my face as DAD does.

[Tarl_Cabot]

What "any other Bond"

If you think it is inappropriate for the Bond character to fall in love that's up to you. Or, if you think the filmmakers failed to convince you that Bond actually fell in love that's also fine. But please, don't lower this to a childish level and ask what Connery, Moore or Dalton would do in a similar situation. They are just actors, reading lines.

DAD is worse.

I don't think it's inappropriate for him to fall in love especially with the lonely life thet he leads but it was so poorly developed...I hope CR's romance is better handled...but here's a review from AICN pointing out what other Bond's might have done or better yet, how the Bond we think we know would behave based on his history/character...etc:

"Brosnan is trying way too hard to make Bond emotional.... He stands there shaking like a school boy flustered by the brat. Why did Bond wait 2 seconds to just not blow Robert Carlyle away? His mission was to protect Elektra and find Renard, and finish the job that his prior 00-agent didn

[Mr Malcolm]

I actually thought Sophie Marceau was one of TWINE's better points. Certainly, Bond should really have just shot her as soon as it was clear she was a villain (or rather, investigated quietly first, and then shot her; he may be hard, but he's not out of control) but if we go with Bond's characterisation, Ms Marceau herself actually does a good job. At least she's actually got some relevance to the plot, unlike Ms Richards...

[Tarl_Cabot]

Both are utterly turgid installments...no wrong answer really.

[Harmsway]

I actually thought Sophie Marceau was one of TWINE's better points. Certainly, Bond should really have just shot her as soon as it was clear she was a villain (or rather, investigated quietly first, and then shot her; he may be hard, but he's not out of control) but if we go with Bond's characterisation, Ms Marceau herself actually does a good job. At least she's actually got some relevance to the plot, unlike Ms Richards...

I think Marceau gives a terribly overwrought, melodramatic performance that is cringeworthy to watch. There's nothing captivating about her performance to make me believe that Bond would take any great interest in her.

[JimmyBond]

And that's the real crime of TWINE. For all that Apted talked up the romance angle of the film, he really dropped the ball there. Whether there was more scenes that got cut, or if the rewrites killed it, the romance is never played believably. We got a montage in OHMSS, while yes, a bit silly it did show Bond falling for Tracey. And even after that we see hints of him slowwly falling in love with her (watch the car chase and you'll see Bond looking at her differently).

None of that in TWINE, we get one or two choice scenes of Bond and Elektra together, then he's all of a sudden in love with her.

[Mr Malcolm]

I actually thought Sophie Marceau was one of TWINE's better points. Certainly, Bond should really have just shot her as soon as it was clear she was a villain (or rather, investigated quietly first, and then shot her; he may be hard, but he's not out of control) but if we go with Bond's characterisation, Ms Marceau herself actually does a good job. At least she's actually got some relevance to the plot, unlike Ms Richards...

I think Marceau gives a terribly overwrought, melodramatic performance that is cringeworthy to watch. There's nothing captivating about her performance to make me believe that Bond would take any great interest in her.

I didn't think she was too bad, given the material she had to work with. I think JimmyBond's said it best about what was wrong with the romance, but I do think that within the confines of that, Sophie Marceau at least tries (and I've certainly seen worse Bond girl performances), unlike a certain Halle Berry.

Edited by Mr Malcolm, 07 June 2006 - 07:08 PM.

[Harmsway]

I actually thought Sophie Marceau was one of TWINE's better points. Certainly, Bond should really have just shot her as soon as it was clear she was a villain (or rather, investigated quietly first, and then shot her; he may be hard, but he's not out of control) but if we go with Bond's characterisation, Ms Marceau herself actually does a good job. At least she's actually got some relevance to the plot, unlike Ms Richards...

I think Marceau gives a terribly overwrought, melodramatic performance that is cringeworthy to watch. There's nothing captivating about her performance to make me believe that Bond would take any great interest in her.

I didn't think she was too bad, given the material she had to work with. I think JimmyBond's said it best about what was wrong with the romance, but I do think that within the confines of that, Sophie Marceau at least tries (and I've certainly seen worse Bond girl performances), unlike a certain Halle Berry.

I'm not willing to shell out an "A" for effort. Sophie tries, to be sure, but she goes way overboard. Less is more. Marceau's Elektra I find annoying and cringeworthy - I think I honestly prefer Berry, because at least Berry is shamelessly trying to be campy. Marceau is trying to be dramatic and floundering.

[Mr Malcolm]

I actually thought Sophie Marceau was one of TWINE's better points. Certainly, Bond should really have just shot her as soon as it was clear she was a villain (or rather, investigated quietly first, and then shot her; he may be hard, but he's not out of control) but if we go with Bond's characterisation, Ms Marceau herself actually does a good job. At least she's actually got some relevance to the plot, unlike Ms Richards...

I think Marceau gives a terribly overwrought, melodramatic performance that is cringeworthy to watch. There's nothing captivating about her performance to make me believe that Bond would take any great interest in her.

I didn't think she was too bad, given the material she had to work with. I think JimmyBond's said it best about what was wrong with the romance, but I do think that within the confines of that, Sophie Marceau at least tries (and I've certainly seen worse Bond girl performances), unlike a certain Halle Berry.

I'm not willing to shell out an "A" for effort. Sophie tries, to be sure, but she goes way overboard. Less is more. Marceau's Elektra I find annoying and cringeworthy - I think I honestly prefer Berry, because at least Berry is shamelessly trying to be campy. Marceau is trying to be dramatic and floundering.

She maybe goes overboard a bit at the end, but I don't think Marceau is too OTT in general.

I don't think we're going to agree on this one though!

[Loomis]

Marceau's performance is vulgar, charmless, and almost unbelievably theatrical and over-the-top. On the strength of her turn in TWINE, she's a good actress in the same way as Nigel Tufnel (sorry, got Spinal Tap on the brain at the moment, for some reason) is a good guitarist - in terms of technique, she knows all the tricks (boy, does she make it clear that she knows all the tricks ), but the mindblowing lack of restraint - the lack of.... what's the right word here? Oh, yes, mercy - makes it all a ridiculous, painful experience. And TWINE is full of such performances, from nearly all concerned - even a role as small as Dr Warmflash (the name) is hammed up right to the hilt.

Actually, thinking about it, TWINE is a film killed chiefly by its cast. Almost everyone in it is absolutely intolerable. We're talking career-worst work by numerous thesps who are (mostly) patently quite talented. Must have been something in the water in the Pinewood area that year; that or Michael Apted has a fiendish gift for directing actors so that, whoever they are, they utterly suck.

In any case, TWINE sneers at the viewer. The viewer laughs at it. DAD smiles and winks at the viewer. The viewer laughs with it. Well, those are this viewer's experiences, at least.

[Matt_13]

Marceau's performance is vulgar, charmless, and almost unbelievably theatrical and over-the-top. On the strength of her turn in TWINE, she's a good actress in the same way as Nigel Tufnel (sorry, got Spinal Tap on the brain at the moment, for some reason) is a good guitarist - in terms of technique, she knows all the tricks (boy, does she make it clear that she knows all the tricks ), but the mindblowing lack of restraint - the lack of.... what's the right word here? Oh, yes, mercy - makes it all a ridiculous, painful experience. And TWINE is full of such performances, from nearly all concerned - even a role as small as Dr Warmflash (the name) is hammed up right to the hilt.

Actually, thinking about it, TWINE is a film killed chiefly by its cast. Almost everyone in it is absolutely intolerable. We're talking career-worst work by numerous thesps who are (mostly) patently quite talented. Must have been something in the water in the Pinewood area that year; that or Michael Apted has a fiendish gift for directing actors so that, whoever they are, they utterly suck.

In any case, TWINE sneers at the viewer. The viewer laughs at it. DAD smiles and winks at the viewer. The viewer laughs with it. Well, those are this viewer's experiences, at least.

I'm sorry Loomis, but the only laughing I was doing during DAD was during that ridiculous Ice Wave scene. The jokes cracked in that film were corny, none of them witty. TWINE actually had some wit, and some good timing as well. Even the action sequences in TWINE were more believable than the garbage in DAD, which was for the most part over the top action all the way done almost completely with CGI. DAD was the equivelant of a comic book with no entertainment value whatsoever, featuring two superheroes that were given diologue written by a three year old. "Your momma"!? Please! To me, DAD was the single worst Bond movie ever made, it was charmless, boring, and over the top in every way possible. It made a mockery of the character, which is why I think the public is having trouble accepting Craig, because those who actually saw DAD got the impression that that's who Bond is, an englishman in his high forties making stupid comments everytime he gets into a conversation. DAD is the lowest of the low and in my mind should not be counted as a part of the franchise.

Matt

[Tarl_Cabot]

"DAD was the single worst Bond movie ever made, it was charmless, boring, and over the top in every way possible. It made a mockery of the character, which is why I think the public is having trouble accepting Craig, because those who actually saw DAD got the impression that that's who Bond is, an englishman in his high forties making stupid comments everytime he gets into a conversation. DAD is the lowest of the low and in my mind should not be counted as a part of the franchise.

Matt"

Agree with all that except the perception about the public not be accepting Craig...the public will warm to Craig and the scaled down CR because of the absurdity of DAD. My prediction is Bond will reach an all time high(pun intended) commerically and creatively...

Great post

[Loomis]

I'm sorry Loomis, but the only laughing I was doing during DAD was during that ridiculous Ice Wave scene. The jokes cracked in that film were corny, none of them witty. TWINE actually had some wit, and some good timing as well. Even the action sequences in TWINE were more believable than the garbage in DAD, which was for the most part over the top action all the way done almost completely with CGI. DAD was the equivelant of a comic book with no entertainment value whatsoever, featuring two superheroes that were given diologue written by a three year old. "Your momma"!? Please! To me, DAD was the single worst Bond movie ever made, it was charmless, boring, and over the top in every way possible. It made a mockery of the character, which is why I think the public is having trouble accepting Craig, because those who actually saw DAD got the impression that that's who Bond is, an englishman in his high forties making stupid comments everytime he gets into a conversation. DAD is the lowest of the low and in my mind should not be counted as a part of the franchise.

Fair points. I can more than understand why some dislike DAD, just as I can see why some appreciate TWINE. I guess it all boils down to personal responses. While there are obviously many who like (or dislike) both films, I wonder whether a large part of Bond fandom can be counted as "TWINE people" and "DAD people". Kind of like the way Tarantino talks of the world being divided between Elvis people and Beatles people.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Elvis and Beatles...I own not a single CD from either party...But I saw the Stones twice last year though!

It still amazes me how LTK is still considered by many fans as the red headed step child of the Bond cannon and the nail in the coffin of the series...TWINE and DAD so spectacularly poor Bond films...2 consecutive turkeys and people still pine for Brosnan to return or I should say his era to continue?

[Matt_13]

Elvis and Beatles...I own not a single CD from either party...But I saw the Stones twice last year though!

It still amazes me how LTK is still considered by many fans as the red headed step child of the Bond cannon and the nail in the coffin of the series...TWINE and DAD so spectacularly poor Bond films...2 consecutive turkeys and people still pine for Brosnan to return or I should say his era to continue?

I feel the same way about Brosnan, and I really hope CR will be a hit, there's way too much potential there for it to flop.

[Bon-san]

Marceau's performance is vulgar, charmless, and almost unbelievably theatrical and over-the-top. On the strength of her turn in TWINE, she's a good actress in the same way as Nigel Tufnel (sorry, got Spinal Tap on the brain at the moment, for some reason) is a good guitarist - in terms of technique, she knows all the tricks (boy, does she make it clear that she knows all the tricks ), but the mindblowing lack of restraint - the lack of.... what's the right word here? Oh, yes, mercy - makes it all a ridiculous, painful experience.

Wow.

Marceau over the top? How dare she. Better that she had channeled the subtlety of say, Lotte Lenya, Donald Pleasance, Angela Scoular, Charles Gray, Clifton James, Herve Villechaize, Roger Moore, Geoffrey Keen, Christopher Walken, Joe Don Baker, Jeroen Krabbe, Benicio del Toro, Famke Janssen, Jonathan Pryce, or Toby Stevens.

This thread has brought forth an absolute tidal wave of hyperbolic bashing. The kind only reserved on this board for the likes of Brosnan, TWINE and DAD. Tarl, LTK is nowhere near as dissed on CBn. God forbid someone starts an anti-Dalton thread. The Pope might be called in to render judgement on the sinners.

I have no firm opinion on the thread topic. Both films suffer from flaws, as detailed throughout this thread in glorious detail. I probably pull DAD off the dvd shelf more often than TWINE. But I derive joy out of watching them both. So I'm not in one camp or another.

I dig the Beatles, Stones and Elvis.

[Loomis]

Marceau over the top? How dare she. Better that she had channeled the subtlety of say, Lotte Lenya, Donald Pleasance, Angela Scoular, Charles Gray, Clifton James, Herve Villechaize, Roger Moore, Geoffrey Keen, Christopher Walken, Joe Don Baker, Jeroen Krabbe, Benicio del Toro, Famke Janssen, Jonathan Pryce, or Toby Stevens.

LOL! Indeed.

This thread has brought forth an absolute tidal wave of hyperbolic bashing. The kind only reserved on this board for the likes of Brosnan, TWINE and DAD.

Where have you been since October 2005? You are aware of some of the reactions in "fan"dom to Mr Craig? A tsunami of venom that really does put all of the other Bond-related griping from the past few years into perspective.

I probably pull DAD off the dvd shelf more often than TWINE. But I derive joy out of watching them both. So I'm not in one camp or another.

I dig the Beatles, Stones and Elvis.

Hey! Is that allowed?

[Matt_13]

Marceau's performance is vulgar, charmless, and almost unbelievably theatrical and over-the-top. On the strength of her turn in TWINE, she's a good actress in the same way as Nigel Tufnel (sorry, got Spinal Tap on the brain at the moment, for some reason) is a good guitarist - in terms of technique, she knows all the tricks (boy, does she make it clear that she knows all the tricks ), but the mindblowing lack of restraint - the lack of.... what's the right word here? Oh, yes, mercy - makes it all a ridiculous, painful experience.

Wow.

Marceau over the top? How dare she. Better that she had channeled the subtlety of say, Lotte Lenya, Donald Pleasance, Angela Scoular, Charles Gray, Clifton James, Herve Villechaize, Roger Moore, Geoffrey Keen, Christopher Walken, Joe Don Baker, Jeroen Krabbe, Benicio del Toro, Famke Janssen, Jonathan Pryce, or Toby Stevens.

This thread has brought forth an absolute tidal wave of hyperbolic bashing. The kind only reserved on this board for the likes of Brosnan, TWINE and DAD. Tarl, LTK is nowhere near as dissed on CBn. God forbid someone starts an anti-Dalton thread. The Pope might be called in to render judgement on the sinners.

I have no firm opinion on the thread topic. Both films suffer from flaws, as detailed throughout this thread in glorious detail. I probably pull DAD off the dvd shelf more often than TWINE. But I derive joy out of watching them both. So I'm not in one camp or another.

I dig the Beatles, Stones and Elvis.

Fair enough, and FYI, I like the Beatles, the Stones, and Elvis, too, even if Mick Jagger looks like one of DR Von Hagens exibits at the Body Worlds complex.