141 replies to this topic

[Bon-san]

This thread has brought forth an absolute tidal wave of hyperbolic bashing. The kind only reserved on this board for the likes of Brosnan, TWINE and DAD.

Where have you been since October 2005? You are aware of some of the reactions in "fan"dom to Mr Craig? A tsunami of venom that really does put all of the other Bond-related griping from the past few years into perspective.

Eh, none of that counts as the film's not out yet. I won't start keeping track of Craig-bashing until the 17th of November.

[DaveBond21]

I didn't realise that you could be a Bond fan and not like all the movies.

I have read comments on here from people who say that TWINE or DAD are crap, rubbish, bad, and other insults.

I love all 20 of the Bond movies and I am going to love CR too. I just like some more than others, but they are ALL Bond movies and so have lots going for them. I enjoyed TWINE and DAD, they both have some great Bondian moments. I never realised that Bond fans had been so disappointed with them.

[Harmsway]

Marceau over the top? How dare she. Better that she had channeled the subtlety of say, Lotte Lenya, Donald Pleasance, Angela Scoular, Charles Gray, Clifton James, Herve Villechaize, Roger Moore, Geoffrey Keen, Christopher Walken, Joe Don Baker, Jeroen Krabbe, Benicio del Toro, Famke Janssen, Jonathan Pryce, or Toby Stevens.

LOL! Indeed.

Okay, okay. Fair enough.

The problem, I suppose, is just that I find Elektra's personality rather irritating at the same time, so an over-the-top version of a grating character becomes extra awful for me to bear.

[Turn]

I dig the Beatles, Stones and Elvis.

Hey! Is that allowed?

I dig the Beatles, Stones and Elvis, myself. Bacon tastes good, pork chops taste good and sewer rat can taste like pumpkin pie, but I wouldn't know because I don't agree with Tarantino on this one.

I doubt it will do much to change my opinion that TWINE is basically a James Bond Lifetime movie, but I wonder if the deleted scenes will add anything to it on the upcoming DVD.

[Mr_Wint]

Elektra King is a woman who Bond could fall in love with. Not for one second do I doubt that. She's the only memorable female character from the last 5 films (a cross between Octopussy and Tracy). And Sophie Marceau is an excellent casting choice. Incredibly charming, and still she has a strong manipulating personality. Can anyone imagine Sharon Stone or Halle Berry playing this role? No? Good.

It's fascinating that people can find "some vitality" in DIE ANOTHER DAY. I still think that the guy who green-lighted that storyline should have a particularly painful and humiliating death. Or wait... what storyline?

[Genrewriter]

I prefer DAD, simply because it remembers to be a fun movie. TWINE is alright but the screenplay bogs down to a certain extent after a while. I'm all for character development but in this case it'as a case of too much and not enough entyertainment to balance it out. DAD may not be the best Bons film (I rank it in the top 5 simply because it goes as over the top as it does, goiung that route earns you major points in my book), but it's a fun ride which TWINE is only sporadically.

[Harmsway]

It's fascinating that people can find "some vitality" in DIE ANOTHER DAY. I still think that the guy who green-lighted that storyline should have a particularly painful and humiliating death. Or wait... what storyline?

It's a vibrant, energetic adventure. Like it or not, it's very bold and very memorable with truly exotic locations and settings and some fun setpieces. A great movie? Hardly. But it has a lot of fun stuff along the way.

[JimmyBond]

It's a vibrant, energetic adventure. Like it or not, it's very bold and very memorable with truly exotic locations and settings and some fun setpieces. A great movie? Hardly. But it has a lot of fun stuff along the way.

Agreed with everything but the "hardly" I think this film, along with TND are Brosnan's two best films. They're also certainly his funnest. I also think DAD has some of the most exotic locations of the Brosnan era.

[Harmsway]

It's a vibrant, energetic adventure. Like it or not, it's very bold and very memorable with truly exotic locations and settings and some fun setpieces. A great movie? Hardly. But it has a lot of fun stuff along the way.

Agreed with everything but the "hardly" I think this film, along with TND are Brosnan's two best films. They're also certainly his funnest. I also think DAD has some of the most exotic locations of the Brosnan era.

Well, if I was going to sincerely critique DIE ANOTHER DAY as a film that attempts to take itself as a genuine Bond film, I can't say it's really good. It's too wildly inconsistent, and does have some truly awful things along the way (damned be that electroglove!). Is it "great" in the vein that FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE and GOLDFINGER and THE SPY WHO LOVED ME are "great"? Nah - it doesn't come close. But still, I think it's more entertaining than people give it credit for.

[JimmyBond]

Could we really compare Moonraker to FRWL or Goldfinger...or even Spy? Probably not, yet Moonraker is considered a classic 007 film. Now if we cut off the comparisons to just the four Brosnan films, I think DAD really succceeds in being a great Bond film, that does (imo) evoke past Bond adventures.

[Mr_Wint]

It's fascinating that people can find "some vitality" in DIE ANOTHER DAY. I still think that the guy who green-lighted that storyline should have a particularly painful and humiliating death. Or wait... what storyline?

It's a vibrant, energetic adventure. Like it or not, it's very bold and very memorable with truly exotic locations and settings and some fun setpieces. A great movie? Hardly. But it has a lot of fun stuff along the way.

Yes, DIE ANOTHER DAY tries extremly hard to be vibrant and energetic, too hard, and that's why the film fails so much. There's nothing memorable with cars racing around in an ice-palace or a guy in a battle suit. WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH has a real story to tell and that adds far more depth to a Bondfilm. It may be lacking in editing and pace but the film will still stand the test of time much better.

[Harmsway]

Could we really compare Moonraker to FRWL or Goldfinger...or even Spy?

Yes... in overall filmmaking quality. I think MOONRAKER is still a better-made film than DIE ANOTHER DAY is.

DIE ANOTHER DAY is, as far as filmmaking quality goes, somewhat poor, and doesn't really have iconic status on its own by contributing something to the franchise on its own. It's just relying on nostalgia and past Bond films for its success.

There's nothing memorable with cars racing around in an ice-palace or a guy in a battle suit.

Cars in an ice palace is pretty memorable, IMO. More memorable than anything TWINE has to offer.

WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH has a real story to tell and that adds far more depth to a Bondfilm. It may be lacking in editing and pace but the film will still stand the test of time much better.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

[Bondian]

Could we really compare Moonraker to FRWL or Goldfinger...or even Spy?

Yes... in overall filmmaking quality. I think MOONRAKER is still a better-made film than DIE ANOTHER DAY is.

DIE ANOTHER DAY is, as far as filmmaking quality goes, somewhat poor, and doesn't really have iconic status on its own by contributing something to the franchise on its own. It's just relying on nostalgia and past Bond films for its success.

There's nothing memorable with cars racing around in an ice-palace or a guy in a battle suit.

Cars in an ice palace is pretty memorable, IMO. More memorable than anything TWINE has to offer.

WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH has a real story to tell and that adds far more depth to a Bondfilm. It may be lacking in editing and pace but the film will still stand the test of time much better.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Excellent observation, to which I agree with 100%.

[Jaws0178]

This puts me squarely in the minority, but I happen to love TWINE. I think it's a terrific Bond movie. Brosnan's terrific in it (that line about "a game I can't afford to play" is about Bond unwillingness to be drawn in emotionally - and it works well in the context of the film). The movie also benefits from a largely terrific cast (the sole exception being the unbearable Denise Richards) and a plot that's actually about something people really do wicked things over - oil.

All things considered, TWINE is Brosnan's best Bond - and I just can't believe the lack of love it gets here.

As for DAD...ugh. I'd put it just above TMWTGG and AVTAK - the bottom of the barrel Bonds.

Scott, all I can say is that if TWINE likers are a minority camp, can we at least have one of the cabins here. Let the people who like DUD get their own cabin. I do, however, disagree with you concerning Denise Richards. Call me nuts, but I could see her as a nuclear warhead disposal chick

[Jimmy Bond 83]

I prefer TWINE over DAD.

DAD had a fantastic first half up until Iceland. The second half is, quite frankly, auto-pilot Bond in the MR instance. The Bond-M issue is never resolved, and Jinx proves she's useless. The car chase was cool, though...

TWINE, on the other hand, is one of the best Bond films. Ever. It has a great story, the most Fleming-ian Bond story in Brosnan's era in my opinion, its down-to-Earth (except for a few OTT elements, like the caviar scene), and everyone in the cast (with Denise Richards as the single exception) is great. Sophie Marceau is a great villain. My favorite Brosnan villain. And Brosnan gives his best performance as Bond... Timothy Dalton must be proud of that performance!

Overall, TWINE is not only better than DAD (which had the potential to be better than TWINE, never to be realized), but Brosnan's best Bond film, overall.

[JimmyBond]

DAD had a fantastic first half up until Iceland. The second half is, quite frankly, auto-pilot Bond in the MR instance. The Bond-M issue is never resolved, and Jinx proves she's useless. The car chase was cool, though...

I always see this used as an argument against the film, but I just don't see it. Sure the tone of the second have is more jovial than the first half, but I think Brosnan's performance works as an anchor, marrying the two halfs of the film into a satisfying whole.

Overall, TWINE is not only better than DAD (which had the potential to be better than TWINE, never to be realized), but Brosnan's best Bond film, overall.

To be honest I think TWINE is not only Brosnan's worst performance as Bond, but his worst performance as an actor period, and I've seen Mrs. Doubtfire

[James Bond [007]]

Die Another Day is the worst by far I mean for The World is Not Enough to be a non-Fleming movie it captured the literary character excellently. Die Another Day turned Bond into a Super Hero. In my opinion The World is Not Enogugh is the best in the series.

[Qwerty]

Could we really compare Moonraker to ... or even Spy?

Certainly!

I was looking over some of the past threads where I reviewed and ranked The World Is Not Enough and Die Another Day, and it looks like they were often pretty neck in neck, with neither one always being in the better position. Keeping that in mind, I suppose I'll say The World Is Not Enough. I do enjoy both films (although they are the two lesser Brosnan films to me). GoldenEye and Tomorrow Never Dies are much more entertaining and interesting when it comes to plot, characters, etc. on the whole.

I've added in a poll.

I know a more rounded poll would also have options such as 'I hate them both,' but I really just wanted to see if given these two choices only, what fans would choose.

[SecretAgentFan]

Stupidest movie of the 00s, Tarl? We're now half-way through the decade, and there's some serious competition: Battlefield Earth, Dungeons and Dragons, Scary Movie 1-4, Daredevil, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, The Butterfly Effect, Van Helsing, to name a few. And let's not forget bloated prestige projects like Pearl Harbor, Soderbergh's Solaris, Spielberg's The Terminal and the two Matrix sequels.

But to the question: this is difficult. In my opinion, both films suffer from the same problems: an unsure tone, repetitive action sequences and set-pieces, witless dialogue, too many underdeveloped characters, and phoned-in performances. I suppose the problems of DAD tend to stick out more, both in terms of screenplay and execution, because that film takes its fantastic elements much further (not to mention certain CGI bits that have been mentioned before). But the HongKong, Cuba and Londen scenes in that one were enjoyable at least, and that's something that cannot be said for the long, long run of TWINE. I really have to strain myself to think of even one 'fun' moment in TWINE. There's nothing distinctive about the action- it's all BMWs, great balls of fire and sub-machine guns. I suppose the film has lofty ambitions, though I can't really pinpoint what they are- something to do with 'feeling alive'. Watching TWINE, it is difficult enough to stay awake, let alone 'feel alive'. Because of its misguided desire to 'push the boundaries', TWINE takes itself way too seriously- which would be fine if it were only half plausible. The picture is drab, boring, and judging from the framing and colours, it was probably shot in someone's backyard. Underground Soviet bunkers and Black Sea caviar plants may be exotic, but it's not the sort of exotism that makes one want to go out and explore the mysteries of the globe. And all this drabness sits very uneasy with 007's jolly one-liners, which make the two previous (and superior) Brosnan Bond pictures seem like Oscar Wilde.

So I say TWINE- though come tomorrow, I might just as well feel biased towards DAD. Burn it! Burn them both!

Gee, I disagree completely on the following points:

- I loved Soderbergh's Solaris and Spielberg's The Terminal. They are not bloated prestige projects at all IMO.

- DAD was fun and different until Bond goes to Iceland. This could have been one of the best Bonds.

- TWINE, is IMO lots of fun and also filled with great performances, mainly by Brosnan and Marceau. It

[The Richmond Spy]

Could we really compare Moonraker to ... or even Spy?

I've added in a poll.

Yay! I love polls!

I voted for Die Another Day, but IMO neither of the two movies are that bad. They are both in my Top 10.

[Harmsway]

DAD had a fantastic first half up until Iceland. The second half is, quite frankly, auto-pilot Bond in the MR instance. The Bond-M issue is never resolved, and Jinx proves she's useless. The car chase was cool, though...

I always see this used as an argument against the film, but I just don't see it. Sure the tone of the second have is more jovial than the first half, but I think Brosnan's performance works as an anchor, marrying the two halfs of the film into a satisfying whole.

I never thought the tone of the film took any dramatic shift from first half to second half, and even the opening PTS and torture sequence seemed to be handled with a light as possible nature. I mean, it's in the first half where Bond pulls a John Flint and stops his heart to escape from a ship. Not exactly a down-to-earth spy drama.

It's true that none of the story threads are really resolved in DIE ANOTHER DAY, and that's one of its tragic flaws (some of them were fixed in the movie novelization, however... which was a great deal superior to the film).

Overall, TWINE is not only better than DAD (which had the potential to be better than TWINE, never to be realized), but Brosnan's best Bond film, overall.

To be honest I think TWINE is not only Brosnan's worst performance as Bond, but his worst performance as an actor period, and I've seen Mrs. Doubtfire

I concur... It's just really shabby work from the Brozmeister, and he's capable of *sooooo* much better. Especially judging from THE MATADOR, which just made everything he'd done previously look shabby by comparison.

[JimmyBond]

It all goes back to what Harmsway and myself have been saying. If Brosnan really tried, he would have made his bad scripts work, but he didnt give it his all.

[Turn]

Yes, DIE ANOTHER DAY tries extremly hard to be vibrant and energetic, too hard, and that's why the film fails so much. There's nothing memorable with cars racing around in an ice-palace or a guy in a battle suit. WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH has a real story to tell and that adds far more depth to a Bondfilm. It may be lacking in editing and pace but the film will still stand the test of time much better.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't TWINE supposed to be a James Bond film, where there's supposed to be memorable action of some kind? The teaser sequence aside, name me one thing memorable thing about TWINE. I know you'll say Bond killing Elecktra, but that's a brief scene and quite overrated by TWINE supporters. please don't tell me DAD's action won't compare to what went before it, but compared to the feeble ski chases, casino visits, caviar factory whatever that was and the whole sub thing it's a John Woo film.

What's that leave you with? The story. I find it to feature an underwhelming plot with too much emphasis on Bond's being duped by some femme fatale. Some say Fleming, I say Lifetime. Films such as OHMSS and LTK are more story-driven Bonds getting their due now in retrospect as they have more Bondian edge to them. I seriously doubt anyone will include TWINE in that category in the future.

James Bond movies are meant to be fun. At least DAD had it in spirit. If there's any after the credits in TWINE, I have yet to find it.

[urhash]

DAD by far, definitely. Ugh.

[Lounge Lizard]

[quote name='SecretAgentFan' post='564086' date='9 June 2006 - 16:52']
[quote name='Lounge Lizard' post='562991' date='6 June 2006 - 08:52']
Stupidest movie of the 00s, Tarl? We're now half-way through the decade, and there's some serious competition: Battlefield Earth, Dungeons and Dragons, Scary Movie 1-4, Daredevil, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, The Butterfly Effect, Van Helsing, to name a few. And let's not forget bloated prestige projects like Pearl Harbor, Soderbergh's Solaris, Spielberg's The Terminal and the two Matrix sequels.

But to the question: this is difficult. In my opinion, both films suffer from the same problems: an unsure tone, repetitive action sequences and set-pieces, witless dialogue, too many underdeveloped characters, and phoned-in performances. I suppose the problems of DAD tend to stick out more, both in terms of screenplay and execution, because that film takes its fantastic elements much further (not to mention certain CGI bits that have been mentioned before). But the HongKong, Cuba and Londen scenes in that one were enjoyable at least, and that's something that cannot be said for the long, long run of TWINE. I really have to strain myself to think of even one 'fun' moment in TWINE. There's nothing distinctive about the action- it's all BMWs, great balls of fire and sub-machine guns. I suppose the film has lofty ambitions, though I can't really pinpoint what they are- something to do with 'feeling alive'. Watching TWINE, it is difficult enough to stay awake, let alone 'feel alive'. Because of its misguided desire to 'push the boundaries', TWINE takes itself way too seriously- which would be fine if it were only half plausible. The picture is drab, boring, and judging from the framing and colours, it was probably shot in someone's backyard. Underground Soviet bunkers and Black Sea caviar plants may be exotic, but it's not the sort of exotism that makes one want to go out and explore the mysteries of the globe. And all this drabness sits very uneasy with 007's jolly one-liners, which make the two previous (and superior) Brosnan Bond pictures seem like Oscar Wilde.

So I say TWINE- though come tomorrow, I might just as well feel biased towards DAD. Burn it! Burn them both!
[/quote]


Gee, I disagree completely on the following points:

- I loved Soderbergh's Solaris and Spielberg's The Terminal. They are not bloated prestige projects at all IMO.

- DAD was fun and different until Bond goes to Iceland. This could have been one of the best Bonds.

- TWINE, is IMO lots of fun and also filled with great performances, mainly by Brosnan and Marceau. It

[SecretAgentFan]

While I still disagree, I respect the points you

[The Richmond Spy]

I know theres a sample size of only 15, but I would have thought that DAD would be running away with this poll.

[Harmsway]

I know theres a sample size of only 15, but I would have thought that DAD would be running away with this poll.

Not I. A ton of people hate TWINE and somewhat like DAD. They're probably both among the most-hated entries in the series, though.

[JimmyBond]

I think DAD had a huge backlash right when it was released. A lot of people hated it way back then, however in hindsight they're realizing that it's not a horrible film, some are even warming up to it.

TWINE is having an opposite experience. A film that many people loved right out of the gate is now being looked upon as the slow moving dull film it is. I said this before and I'll say it again, I originally did love TWINE, but that was because it was so radically different than TND. Little did I know at the time that that wasnt a good thing.

[Kneyber]

Since I have bought DAD on DVD, I have never watched it again. Saw it twice in the cinema's and thought it was an awful, very bad movie. The movie falls into pieces when Bond reaches Cuba. But this is the problem with all Brosnan films except for GE: they start of pretty well and then succumb later on....