141 replies to this topic

[dee-bee-five]

Well, I regard TWINE as the most underrated Bond film currently; the OHMSS of our time. So there's not much competition for me.

That said, I think DAD gets way too much stick on CBN. Don't get me wrong, I love Casino Royale and it's shot to the top of my favourites (knocking OHMSS from the top slot). It's my kind of Bond film. But I can also enjoy the romps as well. And while DAD's certainly not in the same league as, say, TSWLM, it's no AVTAK either.

Edited by dee-bee-five, 25 January 2007 - 08:09 AM.

[dee-bee-five]

Was TWINE even that bad?

The critics didn't so.

[Howland]

[quote name='dee-bee-five' date='25 January 2007 - 09:09' post='692767']
Well, I regard TWINE as the most underrated Bond film currently; the OHMSS of our time. So there's not much competition for me.

I totally agree with that. For me TWINE was the best of Brosnan. Why, you may ask, because for the first time the main villain (assuming its Renard and not Elektra) is not motivated by power, money or vengeance but by love. And that I find very much original.

Although what I liked about TWINE is the fact that you don't know who manipulates whom. Did Renard transform Elektra King in what she is (er was) or was it the other way around ? Who is the main villain in TWINE ? I never found an answer to that question and that is what makes it great. OK, Denise Richards wasn't that great, but apart from that...

As for DAD, it is one of the worst Bond for me. Unlike many of you I find the principle of a Ice Hotel very Bondian and at the very least if it was it's only flaw, I could have bought the invisible car, but the dialogue ?! "They feast like there is no tomorrow" "you're so good, especially when you're bad", I mean, come on. The scenes between Bond and Jinx are just plain awful.

So for me comparing TWINE and DAD is like comparing Goldfinger and Moonraker (or TMWTGG)

[dinovelvet]

As for DAD, it is one of the worst Bond for me. Unlike many of you I find the principle of a Ice Hotel very Bondian and at the very least if it was it's only flaw, I could have bought the invisible car, but the dialogue ?! "They feast like there is no tomorrow" "you're so good, especially when you're bad", I mean, come on. The scenes between Bond and Jinx are just plain awful.

My feeling is that DAD veers wildly up and down like a rollercoaster, with the highs being the PTS, swordfight, Bond in Hong Kong, and other bits here and there, with the lows being the aforementioned bad dialogue between Bond and Jinx, the legendary parasurfing sequence, and so on.
However, I'll take the uneven, tone-shifting DAD over TWINE which is just flat all the way through (OK, I do enjoy the boat chase at the beginning). The rest of the action is lacklustre - the skiing scene practically screams "Insert obligatory ski chase here", the bunker scene is just Bond and some disposable evil goons firing at each other with nothing particularly involving going on, the buzzsaw helicopters thing is just confusing and a bit boring, the submarine finale ends with a lame anticlimactic death.
Another thing that annoys me about TWINE is all the convoluted backstory that has to be explained during the first half hour of the film. We have to be told all about Elektra, Robert King, Renard, 009, etc. The film would have worked just as well without all the kidnapping backstory, IMHO.
Incidentally, I just realized that DAD is the only Brosnan film which DOESN'T employ heavy handed "peeling back the layers" melodrama. Maybe that's why I liked it

[Publius]

Incidentally, I just realized that DAD is the only Brosnan film which DOESN'T employ heavy handed "peeling back the layers" melodrama. Maybe that's why I liked it

Hmm. All they had in TND was Paris, and that was about 5-10 minutes worth. Between "I'm after the one who set me up!" and the "breath of life" stuff with Jinx I think DAD was trying to sell more than TND was.

[dinovelvet]

Incidentally, I just realized that DAD is the only Brosnan film which DOESN'T employ heavy handed "peeling back the layers" melodrama. Maybe that's why I liked it

Hmm. All they had in TND was Paris, and that was about 5-10 minutes worth. Between "I'm after the one who set me up!" and the "breath of life" stuff with Jinx I think DAD was trying to sell more than TND was.

Hmm, personally I didn't see those DAD things as being in the same category as the beach scene from GE (It's what keeps me alive!), the 'Did I get too close' Paris bit in TND, or...most of TWINE, all of which were 'Bond as a sensitive 90s man'. Bond out for some good old revenge is a complete 180 from all that stuff, IMHO. I liked Bond saving Jinx's life though, its one of Halle Berry's few good moments when he revives her and she nonchalantly asks "What took you so long?" (Come to think of it, its not exactly a million miles away from Vesper reviving Bond in CR and then him asking her is she's alright). Anyway, its just a business-as-usual saving the girl from peril scene, I didn't detect any obnoxious "insights into Bond's psyche" in that moment, personally...

[Judo chop]

My feeling is that DAD veers wildly up and down like a rollercoaster, with the highs being the PTS, swordfight, Bond in Hong Kong, and other bits here and there, with the lows being the aforementioned bad dialogue between Bond and Jinx, the legendary parasurfing sequence, and so on.
However, I'll take the uneven, tone-shifting DAD over TWINE which is just flat all the way through (OK, I do enjoy the boat chase at the beginning). The rest of the action is lacklustre - the skiing scene practically screams "Insert obligatory ski chase here", the bunker scene is just Bond and some disposable evil goons firing at each other with nothing particularly involving going on, the buzzsaw helicopters thing is just confusing and a bit boring, the submarine finale ends with a lame anticlimactic death.

You and I see perfectly eye-to-eye on this one, Dinovelvet.

DAD is like sipping a nice California cabernet, with little rat turds floating about.
TWINE is like chewing on a course rope. (Hence, the acronym

[dodge]

Tough call, but DAD is worse, imo. TWINE was partly done in by ambition: attempting to fuse Bond and Greek tragedy wasn't such a hot idea. But they were trying anyway. With DAD, Brozza said it all: "They threw in everything including the kitchen sink" in throwing the franchise a big birthday bash. Pity so few of us had any fun at the party.

[English Agent]

I generally agree with the people who think that DAD started well, but fell
apart as a story once Bond was seen driving to Iceland.
As for TWINE there are good moments, but overall i thought the film was very
bland. Put it this way i dont think i've seen the film since its initial launch.

[dodge]

It's a dead heat on a merry-go-round. The two are neck-to-neck for me: TWINE for overblown ambition (Bond as a Greek tragedy?!)...DAD for simply being DAD,devoid of artistic ambition.

[plankattack]

DAD - Hands down. How many us went and left the cinema feeling like we had a good time at the "birthday bash" only to admit to ourselves a couple of hours later that things really go south in a hurry when Q rolls out the Aston Martin. People shouldn't be so hard on the sloppy CGI - it is in fact a nod to all the ropey backscreen projection of the Moore era (MR, OP anyone?).

TWINE's no masterpiece but it does have a terrific PTS, Robbie Coltrane, some good behind-the-scenes at MI6 and at least makes an effort to be about more than just the villain's scheme. Yes, Brosnan's obsession with peeling back the layers definitely gets in the way, but any film that references Tracy can't be all bad. And I bought Brosnon's moodiness/mopiness alot more than I did in TND, when Paris as a character seemed to be no nothing more than a reason for him to emote. IMO

[Blonde Bond]

Die Another Day, very unsatistying bond movie, from the start to finish. Only few sequences stand out.

My only gripe with The World Is Not Enough, is the harbor scene, with the helicopters and cgi circular saws.

Edited by Blonde Bond, 06 February 2007 - 10:46 PM.

[English Agent]

Die Another Day, very unsatistying bond movie, from the start to finish. Only few sequences stand out.

My only gripe with The World Is Not Enough, is the harbor scene, with the helicopters and cgi circular saws.

Er..........wot about Denise Richards as a nuclear scientist.........i think NOT!!!!!!!

[Blonde Bond]

Well, she isn't believable.But better than Jinx.
Also, she isn't much in the movie.

Edited by Blonde Bond, 06 February 2007 - 11:05 PM.

[craigisworstbond]

there is nothing wrong with either twine or dad.they are both good films.although i prefer twine

[00Twelve]

Ah, the great question.

Ultimately, I chose DAD.

TWINE certainly had factors fighting to pull it down into the trenches...

-Rather weak script, including far too many (LAME!) gag lines for a film attempting a melodramatic tone
- Far too many characters, so much so that it seriously threatens the film's coherence
- Broken promises: they pissed away all that they had hyped up (BOND GETS HURT! MI6 GETS BLOWN UP! ULRICH THOMSEN AS COL. AKAKIEVICH!!)
- Bad casting: the female lead was ridiculous, and too much novelty casting
- lame bad guy fight

But it still managed to hold it together with it's overall tone and brave attempts to create drama (bond & Elektra, M as hostage, Zukovsky dies).

DAD suffered from all these as well, but the script was even worse, with even fewer bright moments. The novelty casting was even more obvious, and the names got even lamer. (They found a way to surpass *DR.* "Molly Warmflash!") There were still far too many characters, and the "Bond gets tortured" angle was the ultimate broken promise. The scene was good, but just FAR too hyped up. Shame. I still do like the films in their own enigmatic ways, but DAD gets my vote.

[ACE]

What a negative thread topic!

I really like DAD. Sorry. Bar the unfortunate CG and muddled ending, it has energy and pace and wit. The first half of the movie has good story telling and is original. Brosnan gives a great performance. I know the Bond Police are arranging the firing squad now.

TWINE has lofty apirations and, if it ditched the clumsily-inserted and unexciting, repetitive action sequences, you would have an operatic, unsettling romantic, mystery thriller - which is GREAT Bond in itself. Apted handled the drama superbly but the failure to integrate Vic Armstrongs "let-it-squib" action properly and not to fully explain the rich, dark motivations and intricate plot and the consequences let it down for me.

I ramble on at length about TWINE here and DAD here.

[Professor Pi]

I was disappointed with THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH when I first saw it, but I find more to like about it each time I watch it.

I liked DIE ANOTHER DAY when I first saw it, but it gets worse with each viewing.

I respect TWINE for trying something different and the little Fleming touches. DAD is more like The Spy Who Loved Me (even more so than Moonraker) because it is an anthology of Bond films rather than a stand-alone effort.

But neither is the worst film in the series. (Hasn't anyone seen AVTAK, TMWTGG, or YOLT -- yes, a Connery film!?)

[ChronoBreak]

I find this to be quite a quandry.

Die Another Day is mostly terrible, but it has a few standout moments scattered here and there. As someone above said, it is indeed a rollercoaster... but its mostly worse for it.

The World Is Not Enough isn't exactly awful, but it might be something just as threatening to the quality of a Bond film - It's boring. Nearly everything about this film is dull, and Brosnan's occassionally catty emoting really causes the movie to spin its tires in the mud.

Given the choice, I think I could tolerate the badness of DAD for those few sparkling moments over TWINE's sleep-inducing "insightful drama." As CR and the Dalton films proved, the cinematic Bond can produce a fantastic, dramatic, and insightful film - And while I admire TWINE for trying, I can't deem it a success in that regard.

Edited by ChronoBreak, 05 March 2007 - 02:55 AM.

[LadySylvia]

Personally, I consider TWINE to be slightly better than DAD, but both movies are guilty of falling apart in the second half. Still, I prefer both over TND, which seemed so generic to me.

[Judo chop]

I find this to be quite a quandry.

Die Another Day is mostly terrible, but it has a few standout moments scattered here and there. As someone above said, it is indeed a rollercoaster... but its mostly worse for it.

The World Is Not Enough isn't exactly awful, but it might be something just as threatening to the quality of a Bond film - It's boring. Nearly everything about this film is dull, and Brosnan's occassionally catty emoting really causes the movie to spin its tires in the mud.

Given the choice, I think I could tolerate the badness of DAD for those few sparkling moments over TWINE's sleep-inducing "insightful drama." As CR and the Dalton films proved, the cinematic Bond can produce a fantastic, dramatic, and insightful film - And while I admire TWINE for trying, I can't deem it a success in that regard.

I agree completely with all points. Well, except for the 'quandry' part. There is no quandry for me. For all the discussion that can be had about the good and bad aspects of both films, it comes down to the very simple fact that I enjoy myself in DAD, and I do not enjoy myself in TWINE.

[LadySylvia]

I just recently watched TWINE. Although it still has it flaws, I realized that it was a lot better than I had originally surmised.