1017 replies to this topic

[sharpshooter]

*I cannot even imagine a situation where Mendes returns and Craig does not. Can anybody?

No. They're very good friends, and if Mendes takes the top job, Craig is absolutely back. Same goes for Thomas Newman. 

 

I propose a Craig/Mendes duet. 

 

"We're caught in a trap,

I can't walk out

Because I love you too much baby."

[Hockey Mask]

A Mendes return would guarantee a Craig return.

But a Craig return without Mendes will all be about the money.

[Dustin]

Come to think of it, I'm not so sure about that money argument. If it was just the money Craig could likely have made at least one more film by now. And the current gap is at least partially also due to him needing a break.

Let's just suppose one year ago Craig had not claimed to need a break but had said merely 'we'll see' instead. There is a chance that could also have urged development on other items. There would also have been BOND 26 in the cards, provided the timing allowed for it.

I assume if Craig returns for BOND 25 - let's forget about Mendes for the moment - it's more to do with a sense of duty. SPECTRE didn't go down as well as planned and that's not the note Craig would like to leave on.

His return would probably also make things much easier for Eon. There will be some infighting about Bond No 7, so the more authority Broccoli can gain on her partners with Craig's support the better her position for the casting.

Yes, of course the money will figure into the whole scheme too, but not probably as the deciding factor.

[Gobi-1]

I would be more then happy to have Sam Mendes return for a third film. I think there's plenty of unfinished business leftover from Spectre.

[sharpshooter]

A more unhinged Waltz chewing the scenery would be pretty fantastic. The glare he gives Bond and Madeleine on the bridge is pretty telling.

[Gobi-1]

Maybe they'll introduce Irma Bunt to break Blofeld out. We haven't had a strong female villain in quite some time.

[Surrie]

Maybe we should create a BOND 25 Survival Guide / Support Group or something to help us get through the long break. Or would that be in bad taste you think?

.....................

 

Imagine Marvel stopping right now, saying: oh, we´re all very tired - sure we love our jobs but right now we want to do something different.

 

Something is severely wrong behind the scenes of EON/MGM/SONY/CRAIG.

It's hard to agree with that IMO. It does seem a little odd when they start making billion dollar films then just stop.

 

....................

- The rome sequence works fine, although the car chase feels truncated and not as spectacular as it should have been (Rome at night is beautiful - but the scarceness of traffic points to streets that have been closed down without enough stunt drivers filling them)

........................

The streets do seem a little vacant. 

 

................

 

When I saw the film for the first time and Blofeld announces that the needle will take away Bond´s memory if applied right I immediately knew that it would NOT be applied right.

 

If you want to build up a credible threat to a hero you cannot threaten him with something that the audience knows won´t happen.  Blofeld would have appeared much more evil if he had actually tortured Madeleine that way, taking away her memory of Bond.  That reversal, with Bond forced to watch, would have been truly maniacal - and fitting, since Bond mostly leaves women and does not look back.

.............

The first thing I though was how is Bond going to get out of this one. Your post is much more terrifying then what we got in SP.  

I can't help but feel a little sorry for Eon - if only half hadn't been sold to MGM. I suppose BB and MGW have long since gotten over this, which is why BB turns her attention to other projects occasionally. 

 

I know what you mean. I felt sorry for Chubby and EON whenever I see them discuss it in the Everything or Nothing doc. 

 

Does anyone know more details about the Saltzman sale. Did MGM offer more money then Chubby could afford? 

 

 

For all the money spent on SPECTRE, the best scene, in my opinion, is the train fight.

One of my favorite fights and probably now one of the best.

 

With regards to the MGM deal - I believe **Cubby was out offered and Saltzman's intention was not to just hand the franchise over to Cubby. Their relationship was very fraught at this time. 

 

I'm fine with Craig returning, although I'd probably prefer a fresh approach all the way across the board (including at lead actor), but I have no desire to see Mendes continue with the character.  I just don't see how he could rebound from Spectre to turn in the concluding chapter that Craig's tenure deserves.  

 

Ditto. 

Maybe they'll introduce Irma Bunt to break Blofeld out. We haven't had a strong female villain in quite some time.

 

This is something I would VERY much welcome and mentioned a while back in another thread. She would need to be expertly cast to do the character any justice though. 

[Harmsway]

A more unhinged Waltz chewing the scenery would be pretty fantastic.

Yeah, but the question is whether or not Mendes would be the one to take Blofeld where he needs to go after the character's introduction was so terribly muddled.

There's a lot in SPECTRE that doesn't work. Even moments that should be clear "home run" moments fall utterly flat (that a chase in Rome between supercars becomes the most leisurely and thoroughly unexciting car chase of the franchise is pretty troubling). It's not just the character and story

So while Mendes works well with Craig and EON, I wonder if he really has the ability to take this era across the finish line in a satisfying fashion. There's a lot of course-correction that needs to happen.

[SecretAgentFan]

I agree about the Rome car chase - but I wonder whether that was Mendes´ fault.  

 

It could have been the consequence of severe restrictions by the city (wasn´t there some issue with the officials?).  It could also have been due to the stunt coordinator´s ideas.  It could have been because of budget limitations.  And wasn´t this sequence shot after Craig was injured and not available as he should have been?  Also, there was heavy rain during the shooting in Rome, right?

 

I get the feeling that SPECTRE was a very troubled production from the start.  Even from preproduction or even before that.

 

SKYFALL was such a box office behemoth that everybody must have tried to meddle: "This film MUST be as big or even bigger!  And don´t change things too much!" - "No, go for more fun! Broader!" - "Do both!"

 

A typical "damned if you do, damned if you don´t"-situation for everybody, with huge pressure to deliver.  I could very well imagine Mendes to curse himself for letting him persuaded to come back because now everybody would measure him based on SPECTRE, not on SKYFALL.  After SKYFALL Mendes was the great saviour of the franchise.  If he had skipped the next one people probably would say now: Mendes must come back, only he knows how to do it right.

 

It seems he bit off more than he could chew.  He probably thought: Well, I know how to handle this now.  It will be easier.  And then all the problems showered down on him.  Including the SONY leaks, severe budget cuts and Craig´s injury (probably causing a general aversion to Bond at that time).  Combined with the problems with John Logan´s work - the writer Mendes had brought in and who seems to have disappointed this time, so much that Mendes reportedly had to beg Purvis & Wade (who did not want to return after SKYFALL, by the way) to step in at the eleventh hour.

 

I guess that´s why SPECTRE is hit and miss, a patchwork of scenes, some inspired, some tired, some very good, some awfully wasted chances.

 

Which might entice him, ironically, to come back once more.  To prove that SKYFALL was typical for him, not SPECTRE.

[Dustin]

This is another downside of the three-to-four-years schedule: now every film is such a heavy calibre that failure - relatively speaking - is just not an option any more; and this goes far beyond purely financial terms. Sure, every production aims to be a success. But it's a big difference if a less-than-stellar entry can be erased from public memory the year after next - or if it's there for three years or longer to irk.

I could perfectly understand if Mendes wants to return for no other reason than to do better than last time. And a bit of cash on the side. But above all he would need the means to improve, that's where I have my doubts. As pointed out, SPECTRE's problems cannot all be pinned to Mendes. Consequently it's not a given Mendes can even address them the way they must be addressed.

[Harmsway]

I agree about the Rome car chase - but I wonder whether that was Mendes´ fault.

Given that all of the vehicular action in SKYFALL and SPECTRE has the same lethargic feeling, I think it's a Mendes thing. Mendes does better with stuff that isn't vehicle-driven.

On another note, it is possible that EON is quietly having P&W work on a script, but are purposefully leaving everything in limbo to give them time to get in order without the pressure of an impending release date.

[Surrie]

I would agree with you Harmsway. Mendes' scenes lack the ferocity of some of the previous car chases in Bond history. E.g Opening sequence chase of QoS. 

Edited by Surrie, 26 November 2016 - 09:34 PM.

[sharpshooter]

I think the car chase was primarily an attempt to integrate more humour into the franchise, along with pushing the story forward without the chase itself just being about stunts and action. They seemingly wanted to tick three boxes instead of one. I thought the concept of the gadgets not being loaded was good, and parts of the humour did click with me. Especially the old man getting rear ended into the parking bay, and the "good evening" line. But yes, I can definitely understand why other fans were underwhelmed with the final product. But for the most part, I'm pleased with the overall product Mendes presents.

[Harmsway]

Adding 70s-era Moore humor into an otherwise dour and severe Craig picture was a jarring mix.

Mendes' touch isn't light enough for it. Neither of his Bond films are jaunty enough to support that kind of silliness.

[sharpshooter]

I can see your point, but I think it was an evolution of the character in some respects. I don't think it was as jarring as the freefall sequence in Quantum of Solace.

[Hockey Mask]

I would agree with you Harmsway. Mendes' scenes lack the ferocity of some of the previous car chases in Bond history. E.g Opening sequence chase of QoS.

QoS ferocity = headache.

[sharpshooter]

I like the QoS car chase a lot. It's probably my favourite straight up vehicle chase in the series.

[Gobi-1]

I agree with the point that three to four year waits puts so much more pressure on the films to be great. The bad taste of a less then stellar entry will become more bitter the longer we wait between films. If Brosnan had returned for a fifth film in 2004 I don't think Die Another Day would be as hated as it is now. We had four years to stew over that film before Casino Royale launched the Craig era. Same goes for Quantum of Solace. The four year wait for Skyfall didn't help those disappointed get over it.

 

While I'd rather have two years waits between films three is acceptable however four is really pushing it. Only three Bond films a decade is really depressing.

 

Of course all of this will never be resolved as long as MGM's albatross hangs around EON's neck.

[SecretAgentFan]

I doubt that the general audience reacts to a subpar Bond film like we do.  Even the much maligned DAD was embraced wholeheartedly by the public, turning it into a monster hit and the most successful film of the Brosnan era.

 

Also, most moviegoers go to see a Bond film because it is a Bond film.  If they don´t like it so much like previous entries, they just shrug it off - and go to see the next one.  And since Bond films are not coming every two years it is even more likely that people forget about a bad film and have a bigger urge to see the new one the more time has passed.

 

I agree that Mendes - who reportedly has lots of input even into the action scenes - is better with character scenes.  Maybe he´s only good at that, and the big action setpieces are less impressive because he only thinks he has mastered them.  

 

And in SPECTRE the mix of dark and sinister with jolly and light-headed does not work for me either as well as it is probably intended.  The car chase loses all the menace by having Bond joking around with Moneypenny.  If that information had been delivered afterwards the gag with the old man in the small car would have been fine.  The way all of it was crammed together diminished Hinx, however.  I wanted to see Bond really getting in trouble.

 

Re-thinking this now, how terrific would it have been if Bond had thought he could outrun Hinx easily, then finding out that his car did NOT have any extras installed yet - and therefore he would have been caught by Hinx AND delivered to Oberhauser.  This way, Bond-Oberhauser would have met much earlier.  Bond could then have escaped, with Hinx in hot pursuit again, this time with the clear mission to eliminate him.  It all would have put Bond under so much more pressure to uncover Oberhauser´s plans.

[Surrie]

 

I would agree with you Harmsway. Mendes' scenes lack the ferocity of some of the previous car chases in Bond history. E.g Opening sequence chase of QoS.

QoS ferocity = headache.

 

 

Well it's not for everyone. 

 

I like the QoS car chase a lot. It's probably my favourite straight up vehicle chase in the series.

 

Same - the atmosphere of the scene is mayhem and the way it's filmed makes you feel as though you are in the passenger seat. Imagine that in 4D... 

[Harmsway]

I can see your point, but I think it was an evolution of the character in some respects. I don't think it was as jarring as the freefall sequence in Quantum of Solace.

Oh, I think it was just as "off," though in different ways. The freefall sequence is bad, but SPECTRE is an endless trudge through nothingness. It's spectacularly inert.

Nothing in SPECTRE really works for me outside of two moments:

1) Lucia's quiet walk through her dark house, bracing for death.
2) The "look at me" moment when Blofeld taunts Bond and Madeleine with footage of Mr. White's suicide.

A return to "classic Bond" humor also means a return to making big, cinematic larks. Take OHMSS, for example. Excluding its final scene, OHMSS is a fairly lighthearted and silly ride, albeit a very elegant one. It's the drama that intrudes there (with fairly striking effect).

Instead, Mendes tried to have the silliness intrude on heavily-signposted drama. It's the wrong approach and it results in an unbalanced experience.

[Odd Jobbies]

Instead, Mendes tried to have the silliness intrude on heavily-signposted drama. It's the wrong approach and it results in an unbalanced experience.

 

Incredibly uneven of tone in terms of the crow-barred in silliness.

 

Plot holes aside i like the way Mendes handled the drama. Many scenes are nuanced in a way that seemed unimaginable in a Bond movie before. But he's not such an artist when it comes to slapstick and these incongruous moments stick out like very, very sore thumbs.

 

Wit  on the other hand is no problem for Mendes and Craig, if only they'd resisted the urge (or the pressure) to go full Moore at times.

[SecretAgentFan]

Come to think of it - even in SKYFALL the comedy is rather heavy-handed (the couple in the subway and Bond claiming to be a safety-inspector).  The funny bits actually were delivered by Bardem himself, and that might have been mainly his own instincts how to deliver them.

[Harmsway]

Yeah, SKYFALL has some clunky humor, too. In fact, all of the Craig films have moments where the comedy doesn't land. It's a hard thing to get right. But SKYFALL and SPECTRE go for some broader comedy than their predecessors, and it feels ill-matched to the way Mendes pushes the gravity of the drama.

Craig can be pretty funny when given the right material (I think the best gag in SPECTRE is the "Stay!" bit), but the role model for CraigBond comedy should probably be the first four Connery flicks rather than 70s Moore outings.

[SecretAgentFan]

Agreed.  I did like, however, how Craig waves at the goons at the funeral.

[Harmsway]

Agreed. I did like, however, how Craig waves at the goons at the funeral.

That's a nice touch that's kinda unique to Craig. It kinda goes back to Bond putting his real name in the hotel registry, or Bond toasting the henchmen in SKYFALL. His Bond doesn't have time for bullshit.

[sharpshooter]

Craig can be pretty funny when given the right material (I think the best gag in SPECTRE is the "Stay!" bit), but the role model for CraigBond comedy should probably be the first four Connery flicks rather than 70s Moore outings.

Mendes and Craig respect the Connery films, but they do have a strong attachment to the 70s outings. Both have said numerous times Live and Let Die is their favourite film in the series. When it comes to the humour in SPECTRE's car case, for me it all comes back to Bond. The ‘cheese’, if you want to call it that, isn’t because of Bond. He’s mostly responding to the world that Mendes has created, such as 009's music choices. Hinx is hot on his tail, so he has no choice but to ram an elderly driver along the road. To Bond, that’s out of necessity. To the audience, it’s played for laughs. The only real quip Bond makes during the scene is “that’s more like it” when he uses the flamethrower. And I find that perfectly justified. This is a Bond that has wanted cool toys since the beginning, but has long been denied. All he ever really had is a series of tracking devices. This time he finally gets his way, even if it's only for a brief moment.

[SecretAgentFan]

Maybe it would have worked for me better if there had not been the dark melodrama surrounding Oberhauser.  If Mendes really had aimed for a 70´s style Moore adventure it would have been great to see Bond just uncovering the Spectre conspiracy with Blofeld at the top.

 

As it was said many times before on this board: the stepbrother element was not needed, nor was it really used.

[RMc2]

I agree that Mendes - who reportedly has lots of input even into the action scenes - is better with character scenes.  Maybe he´s only good at that, and the big action setpieces are less impressive because he only thinks he has mastered them.  

 

And in SPECTRE the mix of dark and sinister with jolly and light-headed does not work for me either as well as it is probably intended.  The car chase loses all the menace by having Bond joking around with Moneypenny.  If that information had been delivered afterwards the gag with the old man in the small car would have been fine.  The way all of it was crammed together diminished Hinx, however.  I wanted to see Bond really getting in trouble.

 

Re-thinking this now, how terrific would it have been if Bond had thought he could outrun Hinx easily, then finding out that his car did NOT have any extras installed yet - and therefore he would have been caught by Hinx AND delivered to Oberhauser.  This way, Bond-Oberhauser would have met much earlier.  Bond could then have escaped, with Hinx in hot pursuit again, this time with the clear mission to eliminate him.  It all would have put Bond under so much more pressure to uncover Oberhauser´s plans.

 

That's really interesting. The two big problems with the Rome car chase are, a) the tone, and it undermines Hinx. Your suggestion would fix both of those problems and solve another: the film's big mistake in having too much mystery surrounding Waltz's character (I moaned about this in my Member Review).

 

I'd throw in a moment where the cars barge each other to make the chase more perilous (you know, a sense of ACTUAL DANGER) and then incorporate your changes - Hinx captures Bond, segue into the torture sequence and the reveal, then Bond escapes and the rest of the film is about finding Blofeld and uncovering his scheme.

[Harmsway]

Maybe it would have worked for me better if there had not been the dark melodrama surrounding Oberhauser. If Mendes really had aimed for a 70´s style Moore adventure it would have been great to see Bond just uncovering the Spectre conspiracy with Blofeld at the top.

Precisely.

You have a weird and dramatic reveal of the SPECTRE organization and then segue right into a goofy and lethargic car chase? It doesn't make dramatic sense. You need to take the dramatic power of the SPECTRE meeting and really build it into something intense. *Then* give us a breather.

But the film tries to give us (terribly unfunny) gags and reams of (lame) exposition about Oberhauser and Quantum. All the while it has Hinx do nothing particularly threatening throughout the chase, robbing him of whatever mystique the SPECTRE meeting had given him.