78 replies to this topic

[Dustin]

I'm not very hot on this 'Blofeld-is-behind-it-all' idea, simply because it's a retcon of at least SKYFALL. But I think it might have been interesting if at some point Bond had believed this and therefore had been going after Blofeld, who was himself oblivious to Bond as person until that moment. It might also have been interesting to have Bond bringing down Blofeld with the help of his wife/partner - only to find her then sticking with Blofeld and refusing to come with Bond. Such constellations would have been vastly superior to the unconvincing angle they came up with Oberhauser.

[MattofSteel]

Didn't love the retcon of Skyfall, especially. That story worked so well in large part because it stood alone.

 

Blofeld-is-behind-it-all seemed like a foregone conclusion, given that the phantom 'organization' mentioned in Craig's first two films would rather obviously turn out to be SPECTRE. Anything else would have been disappointing.

 

The Irma Bunt cut was interesting - I'm assuming they want to save the idea that she could be a principal antagonist in a hypothetical Craig-Waltz Bond 25. A lot of possibilities there.

[Dustin]

Yes, I find myself actually happy that wasn't mashed up into the mix too, it's something to look forward to and indeed promises some potential.

[plankattack]

Getting quite technical with this last point (and happy to debate it endlessly): ironically, the "through-line" of Bond's childhood connection to the villain that they tried to apply to help the cohesiveness of the story is - in my humble opinion - a narrative degree too far. If they'd lost that angle entirely and given more equity to the fact that Blofeld was Craig's hidden nemesis through the past three films (and let that compelling angle stand prominently on its own), it would have carried far more weight and ultimately been a more emotionally effective story. Less would have been more, and I daresay we'd have had another undisputed modern classic on our hands.

I've always been of the understanding, as outlined by SAF/Harms in this thread, that the first iterations of SP were Blofeld-less - Logan had pretty much finished before EON regained the rights to the character.

So I'll go you one more, that Blofeld in his entirety is a narrative degree too far. To explain, I feel that the need to tie an existing story around the reintroduction of a major character, plus all the backstory that that contained, was too much for a script that already existed. Rather, Logan's ideas should have either been the hard outline of the film we eventually got, or that whole story stored away for another day (rather like the GE script that was kicking around for years).

Blofeld and Spectre deserved a process dedicated to their reintroduction from the very start, without the need to tie it to the rest of this actor's tenure, or a SF-2 if you will. I still contend that what we got came out of a convoluted effort to wedge two different narratives together, as well as a third (mistaken IHMO) desire to bring an entire tenure into focus, and for the director, to finish an idea in SF that not many people actually felt was incomplete.

While I'm not too fond of some of the backstory to Blofeld and Bond's relationship, that it was underserved by the finished film is even more annoying to me. A full commitment to exploring their past could almost have carried a film on its own, but instead what should be an important idea is left as background colouring.

As Matto says, less would have been more - more in that the Logan's ideas could have served as one entry in the series, and the reintroduction of Blofeld as one more.

[MattofSteel]

I mean, if it's me, Bond 25 could look like - 

 

• Bond's 'retired' to a home in Jamaica with Madelaine
• Blofeld's in captivity. Lots of interrogation awesomenes with Fiennes, vs. forces in the intelligence community who want to cut a deal in exchange for intelligence value
• Fiennes doesn't know who to trust - others think SPECTRE is dead without Blofeld, but he knows better
• Bunt's running SPECTRE, her master plan is somehow intertwined with (or a decoy for) the real goal: break Blofeld out
• Fiennes goes to Bond in Jamaica and asks him to go on some kind of SPECTRE-related mission: because Bond's "off-book", can be trusted, and won't be noticed (a la Connery's "death" in YOLT)
• Maybe Bond's not entirely happy in retirement: the movie's theme could be the other side of the choice he made at the end of SPECTRE - can he really live the quiet life, is it in his blood to do this, etc.

The worst possible outcome would be SPECTRE killing Madeleine early, Tracy-style, and Bond going for revenge (against the...revenge?) Every emotional beat that would ensue would be retreading conflicts we've already seen in the Craig era (or even the Bourne series). If Craig's around for another and they decide to pursue these characters (how can you not?), they're going to have to aim for storytelling that's a little more nuanced and has real depth.

[Matt_13]

Honestly I think Logan's ideas were much more interesting and daring than what we got for a finished film. I really wish that cage match could have stayed in place, though the Day of the Dead PTS is far and away the best sequence in the film. I'm also sure that Logan's draft had better wordplay (though I wouldn't be surprised if the studio considered it to be too excessive, as Logan does enjoy his dialogue exchanges). Thanks for posting the timelines Harms. A very interesting read to say the least. My guess is we won't be seeing Mendes or Logan again. Sounds like the whole process was exhausting.

[DaveBond21]

I think there probably quite a few ideas floating about and so we may see some of these elements in Bond 25.

[Guy Haines]

I mean, if it's me, Bond 25 could look like -

• Bond's 'retired' to a home in Jamaica with Madelaine
• Blofeld's in captivity. Lots of interrogation awesomenes with Fiennes, vs. forces in the intelligence community who want to cut a deal in exchange for intelligence value
• Fiennes doesn't know who to trust - others think SPECTRE is dead without Blofeld, but he knows better
• Bunt's running SPECTRE, her master plan is somehow intertwined with (or a decoy for) the real goal: break Blofeld out
• Fiennes goes to Bond in Jamaica and asks him to go on some kind of SPECTRE-related mission: because Bond's "off-book", can be trusted, and won't be noticed (a la Connery's "death" in YOLT)
• Maybe Bond's not entirely happy in retirement: the movie's theme could be the other side of the choice he made at the end of SPECTRE - can he really live the quiet life, is it in his blood to do this, etc.

The worst possible outcome would be SPECTRE killing Madeleine early, Tracy-style, and Bond going for revenge (against the...revenge?) Every emotional beat that would ensue would be retreading conflicts we've already seen in the Craig era (or even the Bourne series). If Craig's around for another and they decide to pursue these characters (how can you not?), they're going to have to aim for storytelling that's a little more nuanced and has real depth.

I like what you have outlined here. The worst scenario would be a re-run of the death of Tracy in OHMSS. For a start, Bond and Madeleine only really fall for each other towards the end of SPECTRE, whereas in OHMSS the romance is full on in the first half of the film. It would be more in keeping with the "Bond becoming Bond" theme of the Craig era if, having apparently decided he's had it with MI6, Bond finds he can't let go of his former life. It would also allow for that little known bit of Fleming source material from FRWL - the woman he lives with (in the novel, Tiffany Case) deciding that in the end she cannot commit to Bond because he cannot let go of the service. In a way far more sad than losing his love to death - knowing someone is out there with whom he could have settled down but in the end couldn't, and he only has himself to blame.

[Harmsway]

Tremendous thanks for going to the trouble of typing all this up for us, Harmsway; most appreaciated!

You're quite welcome. I did the research to satisfy my own curiosity.

[DaveBond21]

 

I mean, if it's me, Bond 25 could look like -
 

• Bond's 'retired' to a home in Jamaica with Madelaine
• Blofeld's in captivity. Lots of interrogation awesomenes with Fiennes, vs. forces in the intelligence community who want to cut a deal in exchange for intelligence value
• Fiennes doesn't know who to trust - others think SPECTRE is dead without Blofeld, but he knows better
• Bunt's running SPECTRE, her master plan is somehow intertwined with (or a decoy for) the real goal: break Blofeld out
• Fiennes goes to Bond in Jamaica and asks him to go on some kind of SPECTRE-related mission: because Bond's "off-book", can be trusted, and won't be noticed (a la Connery's "death" in YOLT)
• Maybe Bond's not entirely happy in retirement: the movie's theme could be the other side of the choice he made at the end of SPECTRE - can he really live the quiet life, is it in his blood to do this, etc.

The worst possible outcome would be SPECTRE killing Madeleine early, Tracy-style, and Bond going for revenge (against the...revenge?) Every emotional beat that would ensue would be retreading conflicts we've already seen in the Craig era (or even the Bourne series). If Craig's around for another and they decide to pursue these characters (how can you not?), they're going to have to aim for storytelling that's a little more nuanced and has real depth.

I like what you have outlined here. The worst scenario would be a re-run of the death of Tracy in OHMSS. For a start, Bond and Madeleine only really fall for each other towards the end of SPECTRE, whereas in OHMSS the romance is full on in the first half of the film. It would be more in keeping with the "Bond becoming Bond" theme of the Craig era if, having apparently decided he's had it with MI6, Bond finds he can't let go of his former life. It would also allow for that little known bit of Fleming source material from FRWL - the woman he lives with (in the novel, Tiffany Case) deciding that in the end she cannot commit to Bond because he cannot let go of the service. In a way far more sad than losing his love to death - knowing someone is out there with whom he could have settled down but in the end couldn't, and he only has himself to blame.

 

 

I quite like MattofSteel's outline too. Would be interesting to see some of those elements brought to the screen.

 

I'm fairly sure the Bond producers check out these forums so who knows? 

[Gobi-1]

I'm so glad they didn't make Tanner a Spectre mole. I would have hated that. 

[Guy Haines]

I mean, if it's me, Bond 25 could look like -
 

• Bond's 'retired' to a home in Jamaica with Madelaine
• Blofeld's in captivity. Lots of interrogation awesomenes with Fiennes, vs. forces in the intelligence community who want to cut a deal in exchange for intelligence value
• Fiennes doesn't know who to trust - others think SPECTRE is dead without Blofeld, but he knows better
• Bunt's running SPECTRE, her master plan is somehow intertwined with (or a decoy for) the real goal: break Blofeld out
• Fiennes goes to Bond in Jamaica and asks him to go on some kind of SPECTRE-related mission: because Bond's "off-book", can be trusted, and won't be noticed (a la Connery's "death" in YOLT)
• Maybe Bond's not entirely happy in retirement: the movie's theme could be the other side of the choice he made at the end of SPECTRE - can he really live the quiet life, is it in his blood to do this, etc.

The worst possible outcome would be SPECTRE killing Madeleine early, Tracy-style, and Bond going for revenge (against the...revenge?) Every emotional beat that would ensue would be retreading conflicts we've already seen in the Craig era (or even the Bourne series). If Craig's around for another and they decide to pursue these characters (how can you not?), they're going to have to aim for storytelling that's a little more nuanced and has real depth.

I like what you have outlined here. The worst scenario would be a re-run of the death of Tracy in OHMSS. For a start, Bond and Madeleine only really fall for each other towards the end of SPECTRE, whereas in OHMSS the romance is full on in the first half of the film. It would be more in keeping with the "Bond becoming Bond" theme of the Craig era if, having apparently decided he's had it with MI6, Bond finds he can't let go of his former life. It would also allow for that little known bit of Fleming source material from FRWL - the woman he lives with (in the novel, Tiffany Case) deciding that in the end she cannot commit to Bond because he cannot let go of the service. In a way far more sad than losing his love to death - knowing someone is out there with whom he could have settled down but in the end couldn't, and he only has himself to blame.

 
I quite like MattofSteel's outline too. Would be interesting to see some of those elements brought to the screen.
 
I'm fairly sure the Bond producers check out these forums so who knows? 

I'm starting to think they do. The "M as villain" idea was mentioned here after SF, and when the first pre-production location shoot photos were revealed a couple of months before filming of SPECTRE began they featured Austria, and I idly speculated whether a character named Oberhauser would appear in the film. Of course I meant Hannes instead of Franz, but nevertheless..... :-)

[DaveBond21]

 

 

 

I mean, if it's me, Bond 25 could look like -
 

• Bond's 'retired' to a home in Jamaica with Madelaine
• Blofeld's in captivity. Lots of interrogation awesomenes with Fiennes, vs. forces in the intelligence community who want to cut a deal in exchange for intelligence value
• Fiennes doesn't know who to trust - others think SPECTRE is dead without Blofeld, but he knows better
• Bunt's running SPECTRE, her master plan is somehow intertwined with (or a decoy for) the real goal: break Blofeld out
• Fiennes goes to Bond in Jamaica and asks him to go on some kind of SPECTRE-related mission: because Bond's "off-book", can be trusted, and won't be noticed (a la Connery's "death" in YOLT)
• Maybe Bond's not entirely happy in retirement: the movie's theme could be the other side of the choice he made at the end of SPECTRE - can he really live the quiet life, is it in his blood to do this, etc.

The worst possible outcome would be SPECTRE killing Madeleine early, Tracy-style, and Bond going for revenge (against the...revenge?) Every emotional beat that would ensue would be retreading conflicts we've already seen in the Craig era (or even the Bourne series). If Craig's around for another and they decide to pursue these characters (how can you not?), they're going to have to aim for storytelling that's a little more nuanced and has real depth.

I like what you have outlined here. The worst scenario would be a re-run of the death of Tracy in OHMSS. For a start, Bond and Madeleine only really fall for each other towards the end of SPECTRE, whereas in OHMSS the romance is full on in the first half of the film. It would be more in keeping with the "Bond becoming Bond" theme of the Craig era if, having apparently decided he's had it with MI6, Bond finds he can't let go of his former life. It would also allow for that little known bit of Fleming source material from FRWL - the woman he lives with (in the novel, Tiffany Case) deciding that in the end she cannot commit to Bond because he cannot let go of the service. In a way far more sad than losing his love to death - knowing someone is out there with whom he could have settled down but in the end couldn't, and he only has himself to blame.

 
I quite like MattofSteel's outline too. Would be interesting to see some of those elements brought to the screen.
 
I'm fairly sure the Bond producers check out these forums so who knows? 

I'm starting to think they do. The "M as villain" idea was mentioned here after SF, and when the first pre-production location shoot photos were revealed a couple of months before filming of SPECTRE began they featured Austria, and I idly speculated whether a character named Oberhauser would appear in the film. Of course I meant Hannes instead of Franz, but nevertheless..... :-)

 

 

Well Michael G Wilson occasionally comments about what he reads online although he never mentions which sites. And he referred to the excellent sleuth work done (on here) ahead of the announcement of Quantum of Solace as the title to Bond 22.

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[sharpshooter]

I'm so glad they didn't make Tanner a Spectre mole. I would have hated that.

Me too. I was glad it didn't happen.

[Dustin]

It would have added drama, only I hardly think there was any lack of drama in SPECTRE to begin with. Tanner in the films never really came to be the character mentioned in the books, so audiences just might have swallowed it.

[coco1997]

I still haven't found any mention of a finale in a diamond mine other that what was said in this thread. Would anyone care to elaborate?

[Harmsway]

I still haven't found any mention of a finale in a diamond mine other that what was said in this thread. Would anyone care to elaborate?

It's difficult to elaborate on it since there were no actual specific details provided, just some brief mentions. The diamond mine climax survived through the rewrites until at least May. Complaints were that it played a bit too similar to Silva's island HQ.

[MattofSteel]

 

 

I mean, if it's me, Bond 25 could look like -
 

• Bond's 'retired' to a home in Jamaica with Madelaine
• Blofeld's in captivity. Lots of interrogation awesomenes with Fiennes, vs. forces in the intelligence community who want to cut a deal in exchange for intelligence value
• Fiennes doesn't know who to trust - others think SPECTRE is dead without Blofeld, but he knows better
• Bunt's running SPECTRE, her master plan is somehow intertwined with (or a decoy for) the real goal: break Blofeld out
• Fiennes goes to Bond in Jamaica and asks him to go on some kind of SPECTRE-related mission: because Bond's "off-book", can be trusted, and won't be noticed (a la Connery's "death" in YOLT)
• Maybe Bond's not entirely happy in retirement: the movie's theme could be the other side of the choice he made at the end of SPECTRE - can he really live the quiet life, is it in his blood to do this, etc.

The worst possible outcome would be SPECTRE killing Madeleine early, Tracy-style, and Bond going for revenge (against the...revenge?) Every emotional beat that would ensue would be retreading conflicts we've already seen in the Craig era (or even the Bourne series). If Craig's around for another and they decide to pursue these characters (how can you not?), they're going to have to aim for storytelling that's a little more nuanced and has real depth.

I like what you have outlined here. The worst scenario would be a re-run of the death of Tracy in OHMSS. For a start, Bond and Madeleine only really fall for each other towards the end of SPECTRE, whereas in OHMSS the romance is full on in the first half of the film. It would be more in keeping with the "Bond becoming Bond" theme of the Craig era if, having apparently decided he's had it with MI6, Bond finds he can't let go of his former life. It would also allow for that little known bit of Fleming source material from FRWL - the woman he lives with (in the novel, Tiffany Case) deciding that in the end she cannot commit to Bond because he cannot let go of the service. In a way far more sad than losing his love to death - knowing someone is out there with whom he could have settled down but in the end couldn't, and he only has himself to blame.

 

 

I quite like MattofSteel's outline too. Would be interesting to see some of those elements brought to the screen.

 

I'm fairly sure the Bond producers check out these forums so who knows? 

 

 

Well, if they are - 

 

Hi EON. Big fan. I'll happily deliver a full and compellingly good draft of ^that concept within a fraction of the time and headache it apparently took to get one out of the writing staff last time.

 

[DavidJones]

The two problems I have with Spectre - a film I mainly loved - was the Blofeld/Bond childhood thread but, most damningly, the whole last act.

 

1) We've already seen a helicopter in this film, we don't need to see another.

 

2) Who cares if Blofeld's program goes online at midnight when it can be easily taken offline again almost immediately?

 

If this act had been switched for a better one, the film would have been better. But I still think it's a good film and better, in my view, than Skyfall.

[Matt_13]

My biggest issue is everything from the end of the torture scene on simply not working as well as pretty much everything that comes before. SPECTRE is a good deal of fun (though still not as smart as it should have been) for its first two thirds. I've grown to like the film much more as time has passed, but it's still frustratingly tone deaf in places. Whoever said that SPECTRE is like the moment in SKYFALL where Severine dies and then Bond easily kills everyone and makes a terrible joke about the radio stretched out for two and half hours is pretty on point.

[Dustin]

Whoever said that SPECTRE is like the moment in SKYFALL where Severine dies and then Bond easily kills everyone and makes a terrible joke about the radio stretched out for two and half hours is pretty on point.

This sums it up for me, good observation. It's one of SKYFALL's weaker moments but apparently sets the tone for a lot of SPECTRE.

[DaveBond21]

The two problems I have with Spectre - a film I mainly loved - was the Blofeld/Bond childhood thread but, most damningly, the whole last act.

 

1) We've already seen a helicopter in this film, we don't need to see another.

 

2) Who cares if Blofeld's program goes online at midnight when it can be easily taken offline again almost immediately?

 

If this act had been switched for a better one, the film would have been better. But I still think it's a good film and better, in my view, than Skyfall.

 

The last act is often a problem in Bond films. FRWL is the only one where the last 25 minutes is amazing.

 

I actually found SPECTRE'S last 30 minutes better than the Home Alone style ending to Skyfall. However, both finales were very familiar. Also is it about time for a daytime ending?

 

__________________________________________________________________________________________

[Vauxhall]

 

I'm so glad they didn't make Tanner a Spectre mole. I would have hated that.

Me too. I was glad it didn't happen.

 

Same. They then even toyed with the idea of M as the mole, until Fiennes pushed back very strongly and apparently angrily, saying he wouldn't do it.

[DaveBond21]

 

 

I'm so glad they didn't make Tanner a Spectre mole. I would have hated that.

Me too. I was glad it didn't happen.

 

Same. They then even toyed with the idea of M as the mole, until Fiennes pushed back very strongly and apparently angrily, saying he wouldn't do it.

 

 

Some of their ideas sound a bit desperate. I'm pleased SPECTRE came out as good as it did.

[Dustin]

Well, from what insiders of the industry report from time to time it apparently is a perfectly common thing even for the most lauded productions to go through all kind of weird phases and in the end nobody can really tell what it was that not only brought the thing on track but turned it into a fantastic piece of work. So at least in this regard SPECTRE was perhaps less extraordinarily troubled than some may have thought.

[DaveBond21]

Well, from what insiders of the industry report from time to time it apparently is a perfectly common thing even for the most lauded productions to go through all kind of weird phases and in the end nobody can really tell what it was that not only brought the thing on track but turned it into a fantastic piece of work. So at least in this regard SPECTRE was perhaps less extraordinarily troubled than some may have thought.

 

The idea of lots of writers suggesting plot ideas reminds me of TV Cream's funny review of Diamonds are Forever:-

 

You can imagine the scene – with only weeks to go until shooting starts, round the big conference table a hundred harried writers nervously pitch their little bits of business – “OK, so there’s this robotic pipe-welder, right…” “There’s a bomb hidden in a big fake trifle…” “Bond fights two feisty kung fu ladies in bikinis!” “How about we have Q playing the fruit machines?” “… and so the car goes up on two wheels…” “… he sticks the marching band cassette down her pants…” “… false fingerprints…” “… TWO Blofelds…” “… a moon buggy!!” – and Good Old Cubby, at head of table, holds up his hand for silence, takes a drag on his cigar, leans forward and says, “Fellas… we’ll shoot ’em all!” And we’re so glad he did.

[dtuba]

 

Well, from what insiders of the industry report from time to time it apparently is a perfectly common thing even for the most lauded productions to go through all kind of weird phases and in the end nobody can really tell what it was that not only brought the thing on track but turned it into a fantastic piece of work. So at least in this regard SPECTRE was perhaps less extraordinarily troubled than some may have thought.

 

The idea of lots of writers suggesting plot ideas reminds me of TV Cream's funny review of Diamonds are Forever:-

 

You can imagine the scene – with only weeks to go until shooting starts, round the big conference table a hundred harried writers nervously pitch their little bits of business – “OK, so there’s this robotic pipe-welder, right…” “There’s a bomb hidden in a big fake trifle…” “Bond fights two feisty kung fu ladies in bikinis!” “How about we have Q playing the fruit machines?” “… and so the car goes up on two wheels…” “… he sticks the marching band cassette down her pants…” “… false fingerprints…” “… TWO Blofelds…” “… a moon buggy!!” – and Good Old Cubby, at head of table, holds up his hand for silence, takes a drag on his cigar, leans forward and says, “Fellas… we’ll shoot ’em all!” And we’re so glad he did.

 

I do so love that! The old "throw-everything-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks" approach.

 

Guy Hamilton in particular was good at putting crazy stuff up on screen that no one had ever seen before. Makes me wonder what he could have done with SPECTRE. (Answer: the car chase would have been much more exciting, and he would have brought the running time of the film in at under 2 hours.)

[Dustin]

There is an anecdote about STAR TREK - The Motion Picture, no idea whether there is any truth to it: Harlan Ellison sits with the executives of Paramount discussing possible story ideas for STTMP. The top suit calls for something BIG, Ellison pitches this: '...and after crossing the universe the Enterprise comes to this gigantic wall, there's no going around it so they try to break through and that wall starts coming apart and behind it is the face of God.'
...(silence for a few seconds)
'Fine, okay. Can't you think of something BIGGER?'

[SecretAgentFan]

Ha!  Yes, I read that anectdote, too, and that´s exactly how these meetings can go (had one myself yesterday that defied any sense and had the main actress derail a whole script which she did not understand and consider interesting (which was due to her only skimming the first 30 pages; she had recently seen another film and wanted me to emulate that one now - and I won´t do that).  

[Dustin]

I can guess...

That's of course the next hurdle in a production, actors always hoping for the best part in it - all of the three, four, maybe five main characters. Which is really very difficult to cram into ninety or a hundred minutes. It's hardly a wonder development hell is such a crowded place with so many promising projects stuck there.