78 replies to this topic

[Darthyan]

It's been said that a lot of things were changed between drafts. Here are a few I've come across.

 

1.) Originally Q would have been captured; that's why Bond went to Blofeld's base. Too rescue Q.

 

2.) Blofeld's past; namely that he slaughtered 8 of the guys in his 10 man unit to survive and forced the other survivor (white) to carry a corpse for "protein".

 

What are the other changes, and where is the source for them? Some of the changes might well have been worth keeping.

[Moneyofpropre]

What are the other changes, and where is the source for them? Some of the changes might well have been worth keeping.

 

Present : http://www.commander...tobre-partie-1/ (6 parts) + https://translate.google.com/

Edited by Moneyofpropre, 02 January 2016 - 12:56 PM.

[Matt_13]

Thank you for this.

[RMc2]

Thanks for this! It's fascinating to see the differences.

 

I have to say...

 

I really love the Oct 17th script. It's virtually identical to the final film, but the third and fourth acts are so much better. Blofeld in particular is far, far better than the truncated non-entity we got in the final version.

 

I prefer Bond leaving Blofeld alive, but apart from that, I wish they'd stuck with this script.

[SecretAgentFan]

I cannot understand why it was considered to be a good idea to kill off Blofeld in the first film that he is re-introduced in.

[tdalton]

One thing that has become clear from reading the various articles breaking down the various stages of the script process, P&W did not, in any way shape or form, "save" Spectre.  The ideas from Logan's drafts that were tossed were much more interesting than what they replaced them with.  

[SecretAgentFan]

Hard to say, actually, since I only know the October and the December draft.  

 

What is left of Logan´s idea?  Wasn´t it Blofeld as black warlord - with a finale in a South African mine?  

 

Who really came up with the main ideas that P & W had to work with?  The producers?  Sam Mendes?  Daniel Craig?

 

From my experience directors have very firm ideas that they want to put in - and if a writer cannot or will not do that, it´s bye-bye.  I´m sure Mr. Butterworth was brought in by Mendes because his relationship with P&W is... well... not the best.

 

And although it´s pure speculation - I would instantly believe that it was Sam Mendes who wanted the Blofeld as stepbrother-idea in SPECTRE.  It just sounds like something that´s right up his alley.

[Orion]

Hard to say, actually, since I only know the October and the December draft.  

 

What is left of Logan´s idea?  Wasn´t it Blofeld as black warlord - with a finale in a South African mine?  

 

Who really came up with the main ideas that P & W had to work with?  The producers?  Sam Mendes?  Daniel Craig?

 

From my experience directors have very firm ideas that they want to put in - and if a writer cannot or will not do that, it´s bye-bye.  I´m sure Mr. Butterworth was brought in by Mendes because his relationship with P&W is... well... not the best.

 

And although it´s pure speculation - I would instantly believe that it was Sam Mendes who wanted the Blofeld as stepbrother-idea in SPECTRE.  It just sounds like something that´s right up his alley.

Butterworth worked on Skyfall too, he was the practicalities writer (for want of a better phrase) on both films. His job is to re-write sequences when something happens that make the original plan untenable. These writers are rarely credited as they won't have written enough of the final film to fall under guild rules in regards to credits. Butterworth got a credit on Spectre because of the mass amounts of re-writing that he had to do to accommodate for Daniel Craig breaking his leg. I know people on this forum are determined to say Mendes didn't get on with the writers (which one he hated changing depending on which writer the poster has decided they don't like), but none of the writing staff were fired from the film. Logan couldn't do the further re-writes the studio asked for as he had to get back to work on Penny Dreadful (where, as show-runner, all his attention would be required) so they got P&W to come in before they went back to show running their upcoming series for the BBC.  

[SecretAgentFan]

Nobody will officially say fire.  It´s the rule of the game.  It´s always about scheduling conflicts, prior commitments.

 

Don´t think for a second that any director will continue to work with writers who have different ideas.  The modus operandi is this: let the writer turn in his draft, and that will be it.

 

Let´s face it: the writer has no power in the movie industry.

[Orion]

Nobody will officially say fire.  It´s the rule of the game.  It´s always about scheduling conflicts, prior commitments.

 

Don´t think for a second that any director will continue to work with writers who have different ideas.  The modus operandi is this: let the writer turn in his draft, and that will be it.

 

Let´s face it: the writer has no power in the movie industry.

I am a writer, you are right, we are powerless, but you basically do just write the idea the director or producer has and try to make it workable, as a writer you now that's your job from day 1. You apply for writing work by being given the idea the producer has had and then writing it. The writer who get's it is the one who had exactly what the producer had in their head. All four of spectre's writers will know this and will not have argued with Mendes or EON on any ideas they had themselves. They are all highly experienced writers who's job is to say "how high" until they aren't available to do it. It's not the same in TV where the writer (a very specific writer at that) is king, and has to clear on everything from casting to colour palette. Mendes is producer on Penny Dreadful, he'll know EXACTLY the amount of work Logan had to do on that series, hence why the studio notes where dealt with by EON's own writers rather than his go-to, not because of a falling out. P7W had finished the job they where hired to do, continue to apply director/producer/studio notes until the shooting script was cleared. It then moves to the practicalities writer who needs to be available at all times, day or night, so that a scene can be quickly fixed. 

If you see the phrase "creative differences" then someone quit/was fired. It's seen as a kinder phrase whilst being technically true as any disagreements will have been because of a difference of opinion on something creative.

 

[RMc2]

Aaron Sorkin for Bond 25. The movement starts now!

[Orion]

Aaron Sorkin for Bond 25. The movement starts now!

...I think Sony would have coronary.

[tdalton]

There's a decent chance that Sony won't have anything to do with Bond 25.

 

Not sure I'd want Sorkin on board a Bond film.  Based on what I've seen of the films he's written, I'm not sure it would fit the style of a Bond film.  Could make for an interesting departure, though, but I can't see EON taking that risk after the script troubles that plagued Spectre.

[SecretAgentFan]

 

Nobody will officially say fire.  It´s the rule of the game.  It´s always about scheduling conflicts, prior commitments.

 

Don´t think for a second that any director will continue to work with writers who have different ideas.  The modus operandi is this: let the writer turn in his draft, and that will be it.

 

Let´s face it: the writer has no power in the movie industry.

I am a writer, you are right, we are powerless, but you basically do just write the idea the director or producer has and try to make it workable, as a writer you now that's your job from day 1. You apply for writing work by being given the idea the producer has had and then writing it. The writer who get's it is the one who had exactly what the producer had in their head. All four of spectre's writers will know this and will not have argued with Mendes or EON on any ideas they had themselves. They are all highly experienced writers who's job is to say "how high" until they aren't available to do it. It's not the same in TV where the writer (a very specific writer at that) is king, and has to clear on everything from casting to colour palette. Mendes is producer on Penny Dreadful, he'll know EXACTLY the amount of work Logan had to do on that series, hence why the studio notes where dealt with by EON's own writers rather than his go-to, not because of a falling out. P7W had finished the job they where hired to do, continue to apply director/producer/studio notes until the shooting script was cleared. It then moves to the practicalities writer who needs to be available at all times, day or night, so that a scene can be quickly fixed. 

If you see the phrase "creative differences" then someone quit/was fired. It's seen as a kinder phrase whilst being technically true as any disagreements will have been because of a difference of opinion on something creative.

 

 

 

Agreed and - hey, great to hear from another writer, us poor fellas.

 

I just like to add that Mendes disassociated from the production entity that gives us "Penny Dreadful".  Which kind of feels strange, given his prior involvement with Logan. For me that reeks of creative differences between the two of them.

 

Be that as it may, the script for SPECTRE was not an easy development, and I don´t see where Mendes improved it.

 

As for Aaron Sorkin - hah, I would be interested to read that script, with Bond and M talking brilliant dialogue, lots of it, probably while walking.  But I don´t think that he would be interested in this subject matter.  And since he´s prepping his directing debut he won´t have the time.

 

But as a dialogue polisher - hey, bring him in at once!

 

Or, as it seems to be the case, hire Christopher McQuarrie as a script doctor (like they did on Rogue One recently).

[Orion]

 

As for Aaron Sorkin - hah, I would be interested to read that script, with Bond and M talking brilliant dialogue, lots of it, probably while walking.  But I don´t think that he would be interested in this subject matter.  And since he´s prepping his directing debut he won´t have the time.

 

 

 

Yeah, Sorkin does seem to prefer doing projects that allow him to talk about subjects he feels passionately about, even if it's to criticise it. I don't see him having anything he'd want to say in the context of a Bond movie.

McQuarrie is another matter though, the man has a clear love for the spy genre, having two he's directing himself in prep not to mention the 3 others he wrote in the last few years.

 

[DaveBond21]

SPECTRE was so good that I am happy for it to be the same team.

[Orion]

SPECTRE was so good that I am happy for it to be the same team.

So would I, but it's unlikely to happen, unless Mendes comes up with an idea he really wants to explore, with Skyfall it was the problems we face when we get older, whilst Spectre was how you need to face, accept and embrace your past to move forward. How well he accomplished those is subjective taste, but Mendes clearly connects best with a story on its thematic level, which is why its so much more prominent in his Bond films (and his CV generally) than it is for many other directors. Christopher Nolan is the only other director who I immediately think of where the thematic notions are often so prevalent.

[antovolk]

Here's one change:

https://twitter.com/...578487908892672

[coco1997]

What is left of Logan´s idea?  Wasn´t it Blofeld as black warlord - with a finale in a South African mine?  

 

Never heard about the finale being set in a South African mine. Where'd you read this?

[sharpshooter]

SPECTRE was so good that I am happy for it to be the same team.

I think we'll have a new director and composer next time, even though I don't think either dropped the ball. Mendes probably feels like he's done all he wanted with the franchise.

[Dustin]

What is left of Logan´s idea? Wasn´t it Blofeld as black warlord - with a finale in a South African mine?

Never heard about the finale being set in a South African mine. Where'd you read this?

I've read that too but, try as I might, I can't remember where. Think it was a while ago.

[SecretAgentFan]

Finally got the chance to read the chapter on SPECTRE in the "SPECTRE-edition" of the "James Bond Archives" from Taschen.

 

Interesting tidbits on the script:

 

- John Logan´s first outline was given to EON in December 2012 - when SKYFALL had just been released.

 

- Logan´s first draft was called "The Death Collector"

 

- Mendes and Logan wanted "Spectre" and "Blofeld"

 

- Purvis & Wade completed the torture scene during principal photography in 2015

 

- the car chase in Rome was supposed to have the two vehicles jump over famous statues but the city officials changed their minds and did not allow it

 

- Mendes told van Hoytema that he wanted extremes in the film: hot and cold

 

- Van Hoytema wanted to contrast all major sequences in the film.  The Austrian scenes were supposed to look almost like black and white, therefore the good weather at the time was only used for rehearsals and cloudy skies were used for filming

 

- Daniel Craig got his knee injury while rehearsing the fight scene with Bautista at the beginning of 2015, bandaged his knee and carried on; later on in spring the injury got really bad during the Mexico shoot and DC had to have it operated on.  Must have been one hell of a shoot for him with all the pain during these months before Mexico then.

 

- Originally, the funeral scene was supposed to take place on a cemetery - but again, city officials refused the permit - but the actual location was preferred by Mendes after all.

[Dustin]

Interesting details there, haven't heard most of this before. I have to say at no point did I get the feeling Craig wasn't well during shooting. Even if Mendes will have directed him to best make up for the injury I think Craig is a much better actor than some realise. Also would seem to explain a lot of his feelings towards the production right after they were finished.

[Orion]

Interesting details there, haven't heard most of this before. I have to say at no point did I get the feeling Craig wasn't well during shooting. Even if Mendes will have directed him to best make up for the injury I think Craig is a much better actor than some realise. Also would seem to explain a lot of his feelings towards the production right after they were finished.

I didn't realise he injured himself so early on. I've had the leg injury he suffered and I can confirm he'd have been in quite agonising pain. Full credit to the man for standing on his feet let alone giving as brilliant a performance as always.

[Dustin]

Absolutely. Having been a runner myself I know how an ankle the size of an elephant's does feel. And such things certainly don't put you in the mood to play Bond...

[Harmsway]

Here's my timeline of the broad changes between script versions:

 

• In autumn of 2013, Mendes and Logan deliver the first draft. It features a number of pieces that would make their way into the finished film (the idea of Bond romancing Mr. White's daughter, named Kaja at this stage, along with the shadowy meeting in Rome, the car chase, and the smart blood). The secondary Bond girl here is named Charlotte, a CIA agent who also turns out to the be a villain (Bond gets an assist from Felix Leiter in taking her down). The version of Blofeld in this one is revealed to be some kind of African warlord after a lot of Dan Brown-style codebreaking. The drama for MI6 is also in early shape here, with Tanner as a mole for SPECTRE. There is a climax in a diamond mine. Bond departs the secret service at the end with Kaja. One element that's also in play in these early drafts is a retcon of Vesper's motives in dealing with the SPECTRE organization, but it's unclear what that actually entails. The script meets with generally positive reception upon delivery, though warlord Blofeld is generally viewed to come off poorly (accused of being "small potatoes"), and his scheme (involving a NATO meeting of some kind) is generally seen as not being big enough to pay off the previous films.
• March 2014: The script is refined. The African warlord interpretation of Blofeld remains in place while boosting his "Bond villain" credentials a bit. Set-pieces shift and they try a pre-title sequence involving Bond in a cage match. The snow plane material debuts here. The general feeling is that the script still doesn't click, and that whatever tweaks have been performed don't make Charlotte and Blofeld compelling.
• May 2014: There is a period of long delay somewhere in here as Mendes and Logan do some heavy work on rewriting the script, presumably retaining the same angle on Blofeld. Additional pieces are added and removed (the Day of the Dead opener debuts here), though the essential narrative framework remains the same. The script Logan delivers in May 2014 is deemed to be a total failure, inferior to previous drafts, with a story that feels clunky and disjointed. It's back to the drawing board for Blofeld.
• At this stage (mid-May 2014), a lesbian Blofeld is pitched. The idea does not meet with a warm reception on the Sony end of things. It's unclear whether this idea actually got beyond this meeting to the script stage, but it's clear that Sony wants nothing to do with the idea.
• At some point after that, the Oberhauser angle comes into play. The structure locks into its more familiar form, with the locations and essential set pieces being set in place. Logan has departed the project and Purvis & Wade have been brought in for their emergency rewrite. Charlotte has been jettisoned altogether, as has Felix Leiter. What emerges is close to the finished film as far as the first two acts are concerned, but the final act is a bit different; Bond and Madeleine end up at Blofeld's desert lair, where Q has been imprisoned. Q helps Bond sabotage Blofeld's HQ after they almost meet their doom via a solar furnace. The final stretch involves Bond and the MI6 crew fighting the clock and henchwoman Irma Bunt to discredit Blofeld by finding damning evidence that he is, in fact, Franz Oberhauser and murdered his father (in this version, Blofeld is a much more public figure, and seemingly fills the "C" role as well as simply being Blofeld).
• By mid-October 2014, both P&W and Jez Butterworth have done some work on the script. The October draft is submitted to Sony for approval purposes for budgeting even though the third act is still being reworked. In general, the October script, even in its unfinished state, is agreed to be the best draft so far, and the Oberhauser material, while in need of additional development, is generally agreed to be a compelling angle that gives Bond's conflict with Blofeld some needed oompf. Blofeld is now an entirely shadowy figure, whose face we don't even glimpse until the confrontation in the desert (Venician masks are worn during the SPECTRE meeting in Rome). At this stage in the game, the Oberhauser reveal is designed to work with Blofeld being the known name and his identity as Oberhauser being the secret reveal in the final act. Q's role is decreased to what it is in the finished film. They try out a very mediocre version of the torture scene here. Bond kills Blofeld on the bridge at the end in a scene that borrows from Fleming's The Man with the Golden Gun.
• The December revisions tighten up some loose pieces in the first two acts (slight dialogue polishes, etc.), but maintains the structure. The third act gets a big overhaul. Oberhauser is now the known identity (as in the finished film, Bond recognizes Oberhauser in the Rome meeting), and Blofeld is the revealed name (here, Bond uses the reveal to one-up Oberhauser; as Oberhauser rants about how Bond destroyed his childhood, Bond informs Oberhauser that Oberhauser was actually adopted, and that his real name is Blofeld). Instead of the solar furnace sequence, Bond and Oberhauser play poker against one another in a game for Madeleine's life. In the final London stretch, Bond, not M, confronts C and kills him in a scene that has been seemingly designed as a bookend to Casino Royale's opener, only for Blofeld to reveal that he is, in fact, alive. Blofeld lives at the end of this draft.
• As shooting progressed, the script was further tightened, particularly where the third act is concerned. The Colonel Sun torture sequence was loosely adapted for the finale, and the beats of the Madeleine/Bond romance were slightly adjusted.

[Dustin]

Tremendous thanks for going to the trouble of typing all this up for us, Harmsway; most appreaciated!

[SecretAgentFan]

Yes, absolutely - and very interesting what actually went on through the re-write process.

 

In a way, all those versions - I think - do have something interesting in them.  Maybe there were just too many ideas to make everything fit.

[Dustin]

As so often, in the process of trying to make it big the pieces seem to lose connection with one another.

[MattofSteel]

As so often, in the process of trying to make it big the pieces seem to lose connection with one another.

 

It's the ongoing battle behind the scenes of these behemoth productions. Producers, directors, studios - all have different ideas and notes that they're constantly trying to inject the film with. Not a bad thing - there's a shared interest in making the best experience possible - and a writer's job is to integrate them believably and serve countless masters as well as the film itself. 

 

Where it becomes a nightmare for the writer is in trying to maintain narrative and character cohesiveness while also accounting for many of these very practical considerations: rhythm, tone, audience engagement, and cinematic value. It's a thrilling challenge and a daunting day-to-day at the same time. A director's tasked (and often the most-credited) with being the arbiter for the audience experience, but a writer shares that responsibility and in many respects drives it equally - if not more so. 

 

It breaks my heart whenever I see a good "ideas" film that can't land that seamless execution; likewise, when a writer so very clearly struggled to integrate a nuclear-refrigerator-sized-high-concept that a higher power clearly insisted had to be present despite obviously negative ramifications for the overall piece.

 

Seeing SPECTRE's behind-the-scenes journey is fascinating. A very "ideas"-driven Bond film, and a final product that blends them together admirably well. One can't dismiss the flaws that are, in large part, a byproduct of this process. But I'm ultimately more impressed by the sheer fact that they were able to translate such high cinematic ambitions as well as they did. 

 

Getting quite technical with this last point (and happy to debate it endlessly): ironically, the "through-line" of Bond's childhood connection to the villain that they tried to apply to help the cohesiveness of the story is - in my humble opinion - a narrative degree too far. If they'd lost that angle entirely and given more equity to the fact that Blofeld was Craig's hidden nemesis through the past three films (and let that compelling angle stand prominently on its own), it would have carried far more weight and ultimately been a more emotionally effective story. Less would have been more, and I daresay we'd have had another undisputed modern classic on our hands.