41 replies to this topic

[seawolfnyy]

I believe he's still Hargreaves. The Bond series is notorious for continuity errors.

FRWL- Bond: Well there was this one time with M in Tokyo...(M cuts Bond off before he can tell the story) -- Clearly this happened.
YOLT- Tiger: You've never been to Japan before have you Bond-san?
Bond: No, never. -- 4 years later and Bond has completely forgotten his story with M in Tokyo

[Dr. Tynan]

This was discussed on another thread a few years back can't remember what conclusion they came to.

I like to think Hargreave's been promoted, that would be better.

[triviachamp]

This was discussed on another thread a few years back can't remember what conclusion they came to.

I like to think Hargreave's been promoted, that would be better.

You mean this one? http://debrief.comma...ves#entry886408
Or this one? http://debrief.comma..._hl__hargreaves

Octopussy publicity material says he's playing the same character as Bernard Lee (I don't have this in front of me but someone in a different thread stated this - I'll have to check. I don't suppose it says Miles Messervy - just M, but I'll have to see.)

I am pretty sure that I remember that post as well. Can't find it though.

[seawolfnyy]

At this point, I believe it is up to us as viewers to decide how we believe it is. I believe Miles Masservy retired with Bernard Lee and that Robert Brown was still Admiral Hargreaves, but I can also understand why others think it is the other way.

[RJJB]

Does it really matter? It doesn't affect the plots of any of the movies.

[glidrose]

So I guess Sir Hilary Bray decided to forego the College of Arms and join the Royal Navy submarine service, since George Baker is in OHMSS and TSWLM, and Shane Rimmer's radar operator in YOLT also decides to join the US Navy submarine service.

Let's not forget Peter Porteous: the curator in Octopussy who gets demoted to gasworks supervisor in TLD. Now I dare you to convince me they're not one and the same!

[glidrose]

And what are we to make of Bernard Lee's portrait seen in TWINE?

Imagine if we saw Sean Connery's portrait adorning the MI6 walls in a Daniel Craig film.

[seawolfnyy]

We would if Lee Tamahori were directing.

[freemo]

Er, not sure what any of this proves, other than that in the Bond series there have been instances of:

1) the one character being played by multiple actors (James Bond, Felix Lieter, etc)

2) the one actor playing multiple characters (Charles Gray, Shane Rimmer, etc)

3) the one codename used by the one character played by multiple actors (e.g James Bond is "007")

4) the one codename used by multiple characters (e.g. Boothroyd and 'R' are "Q")

After having seen SKYFALL last night, all I can say is oh for the days when the part of M was so small that you couldn't even tell if the character was meant to be the same as the one from before.

[graric]

Ok I could be wrong here, cause it's been a while since I've listened to it but I seem to remember on the Audio commentry of Octopussy, John Glen clearly states that Robert Brown was cast to replace Bernard Lee's character of M/Sir Miles

But I could be wrong ...

Yes, but the most compelling "evidence" for those who believe that Brown played Adm. Hargreaves from 1983 to 1989 (apart from the aforementioned Micheal G. Wilson interview) is the Danjaq produced CD-ROMs that clearly state that Brown played Hargreaves in all those movies.

Interesting look at those old threads, I was not aware of the existance of these Danjaq Produced CD's with the 'Official James Bond encyclopedia' on them before reading those threads.
However having read through the threads I now know that:
John Glen apparently viewed Brown's character as a replacement for Meservy (does not garuntee he is Hargreves and could be taken as either a new character or as a replacement in the sense of Roger Moore's Bond being a replacement for Connery's)
Michael G Wilson has apparently stated in interviews that Brown's M is Hargreaves (about as close to a definitive statement as you can get)
The Danjaq produced Bond Enyclopedia CD Roms from the 90's reinforce this statement stating that Brown's M is Hargreaves (suggesting this is the Official EON view point)
The changing Uniform could be taken as a continuity error or a sign that he is Hargreaves younger brother with a lower rank (in the same manner in which the change in General Gogol's first name between Spy Who Loved Me and Living Daylights could be taken as a continuity error or, as some suggested in those posts, a sign that Gogol's identical brother took over his post at some point between Spy Who Loved Me and Living Daylights before retiring.)

[Double-0-Seven]

All signs indicate that Brown-M is a promoted Hargreaves.

What "signs" are those? You must give me the name of your occulist. The signs I see say just the opposite.

1) Different, lower rank.
2) Octopussy publicity material says he's playing the same character as Bernard Lee (I don't have this in front of me but someone in a different thread stated this - I'll have to check. I don't suppose it says Miles Messervy - just M, but I'll have to see.)
3) No on screen or even in script reference that he was a "new" M.

Are Morenzy and Gogol the same person?

I think you could look at it like this:

1) The lower rank was probably, as others have pointed out, a continuity error. To be honest, I've never even looked at his rank.
2) I guess he's technically playing the same character in the sense that, for all intents and purposes, he's playing a character called M. Unless that material explicitly states "Miles Messervy" then I think it leaves the question as open-ended as it is now.
3) True, but if there were no on screen reference in GoldenEye, would we also assume Judi Dench is still the same M? Just kidding, but to me it's pretty clear that the likes of "M" and "Q" are just titles, and therefore it wouldn't be entirely necessary to explain it on screen.

Morzeny and Gogol are like a Jack Wade/Whitaker or Henderson/Blofeld situation - clearly two different characters. Those characters were not titles nor linked within the continuity, whereas "M" is succeeded by someone else after one retires or leaves. Skyfall also supports this, although since Skyfall is part of the "reboot" then the continuity is even more crazy. Only in a Bond film!

In light of graric's post - if Michael Wilson said it's a promoted Hargreaves, that's as close to official as we'll get.

[marktmurphy]

All signs indicate that Brown-M is a promoted Hargreaves.

Well, as doublenoughtspy said above, he'd actually have to have been demoted.

Plus I'm not sure why MI6 would feel the need to get so many Naval folk in all the time.


On the subject of actors appearing more than once, I was watching the deleted scenes of TWINE earlier and noticed that Tom Chadbon appears as an MI6 officer; he later appears in CR as Le Chiffre's accountant fella.