135 replies to this topic

[DLibrasnow]

Well EON obviously does believe he is a promoted Adm. Hargreaves by the info listed above.

[stromberg]

Well EON obviously does believe he is a promoted Adm. Hargreaves by the info listed above.

What leads you to that conclusion? It isn't even mentioned that Brown was in a Bond movie before, and I don't see the name "Hargreaves" in this information. They talk about the Brown M's predecessor, and not a single word about Brown M's job before he became the new M.

Sorry, not convinced.

[hrabb04]

Sorry to throw a monkey wrench into things, but I have it on good faith that Robert Brown's M was actually Castor Troy from Face Off, surgically made up to look like the head of MI6...so you're all wrong.

Seriously, who gives a ? Is anyone's life going to change if someone is proven right here? Will there be any shocking revelation made here if someone is proven wrong here? Will it be proven that M was really a woman trapped in a man's body? Who cares!

[DLibrasnow]

Well EON obviously does believe he is a promoted Adm. Hargreaves by the info listed above.

What leads you to that conclusion? It isn't even mentioned that Brown was in a Bond movie before, and I don't see the name "Hargreaves" in this information. They talk about the Brown M's predecessor, and not a single word about Brown M's job before he became the new M.

Sorry, not convinced.

Because two EON-approved sources identifty Brown as a promoted Adm. Hargreaves in OP.

Do you think that EON would have put its stamp of approval on something if it didn't agree with it? I think not.

Also we have Wilson (admittedly vague) referring to the fact that Sir Miles will not be recast in the early 1980s (the reference is somewhere in that overly long "R to Q" thread should anyone have too much time on their hands).

[stromberg]

The EON CD ROM info only mentions the fact that that Brown and Lee didn't play the same M.
As I already stated above, I agree to that. There has been evidence enough.

The "EON approval" of the Rubin source is to me more sort of permission: "Publish - we won't sue" and not "We the Almighty EON declare this book to be the Holy Bible of Bond". That ice is a bit thin. But I guess we won't ever hear any official word on the subject, so I still take this as a matter of personal preference.

Believe it or not: to me, it's 80% sure that Brown's M is Hargreaves, always been of that opinion. But 80% is not 100% - and so this discussion can continue to go on forever...

[DLibrasnow]

Okay, I agree Stromberg. It is a matter of personal preference. One thing that EON does make clear is that Brown did not play Sir Miles so we can agree on that at least.

[00Twelve]

Read the signature.

[DLibrasnow]

Read the signature.

Right 00Twelve and you are in good company. EON would seem to agree with you.

[Donovan]

Whatever people's personal beliefs may be, the intention by the producers is that Robert Brown was playing Admiral Sir Miles Messervy.

Just like there's been 5 James Bonds, 3 Miss Moneypennys, 3 Blofelds, 6 Felix Leiters, and a partridge in a pear tree....

[Blofeld's Cat]

Whatever people's personal beliefs may be, the intention by the producers is that Robert Brown was playing Admiral Sir Miles Messervy.

This is my view too. If there's no indication on screen to say Brown portrays a different character why assume he could be or is?

[DaveBond21]

I personally believe that Brown played Admiral Hargreaves in all his 007 movie appearances. But in the end there is no conclusive evidence either way so it's all personal preference.

I agree. I was going to start a new thread about this but thought I'd check if there was one already. I voted that Brown plays Admiral Hargreaves the entire time.

I think Bernard Lee's M is one person and Brown's M has a different personality and way of talking.

[The Richmond Spy]

I think he is M in those films. Why? Because when I had to choose my favorite M on my dossier, Robert Brown's name was listed. Also, Robert Brown's wikipedia page mentions there is the M/Hargreaves dispute, but ultimately labels his character as M in the filmography section. Therefore, it is a close race, but M wins by a nose!

[Major Tallon]

I vote for Messervy. If they'd meant his character to be different, I think they'd have made a reference to his being the new M, or some kind of acknowledgment that he'd had a predecessor. Instead they just carry on. Same guy.

[The Richmond Spy]

Woah...this is an extremely close poll...one of the closest I've seen....as of right now it 28-27 in favor of M...and that will probably change by the time I post this.

[DaveBond21]

SOLVED in EON's view at least!

I have the Ultimate James Bond Interactive Dossier enciclopedia, the CD-ROMs produced by MGM with Danjaq in 1995,  it has a lot of info about the movies, and characters and considers Robert Brown's M as a second new M, a total different character, This are fragments of his Bio:

M2

Taking the helm beggining with the Octopussy mission. M was a staid, dignified englishman with small tolerance for 007's cocksure handling of woman and weaponry, like his PREDECESSOR, he tried to downplay his high regard for Bond, lest 007 ego expand even further, M also Retained the services of Miss Moneypenney...  The working relationship between M and Bond seemed more strained and confrontational a M found 007 becoming too personally involved in his missions, more notable in the TLD and LTK missions...  Like his PREDECESSOR the era of d�tente that was nutured during's the first  M's  tenure continued, and the realtionship of cooperation with general Gogol steadily grew.

These CD ROMs are very cool, with lots of pictures and lots of info on the movies and characters, but they don't seem to work with windows XP!!

Anyway since these were made by MGM interactive with Danjaq's blessing or/and input I believe that James Bond has had 3 bosses in the movie world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, must have missed this part of the discussion (which appears with the tedious unevitability of an unloved season ). I have the CD ROMs, but as it doesn't run on a Mac (or is a Mac version out there somewhere?), I always have to get the old 486/Win95 machine running to use it.

Well according to the EON/Danjaq produced CD-ROMS mentioned above Brown played a promoted Hargreaves in OP.

So, the assertion that Brown ever played Miles doesn't have a leg to stand on.

No dispute at all. EON says he's Adm. Hargreaves, thats good enough for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agree that it's clear now that Brown never played Sir Miles, but I can't read nowhere in the above text that he played a promoted Hargreaves.

If Eon said Brown played a promoted Hargreaves then it is settled.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing is settled. See above .

And there's an option missing on that poll:
Did he play a totally different character?
Let's say Admiral von Schneyder (if anyone ever heard of that guy ) , who happened to become Sir Miles successor and look incidentialy exactly like Admiral Hargreaves.

I didn't realise but there seems to be an official Eon document saying that Brown did indeed play a different person, described in the document as M2, who retained Moneypenny as his secretary.

[TheSaint]

Oh lord! Who opened up this bag of beans again?

[Skudor]

50/50 now :-)

I tend to think of Brown as a different M - it makes more sense - but in essense, transported into the literary world, he's the same M. Same character (M, James Bond's boss) but at the same time different (Hargreaves rather than Messervy). In other words the personality is the same (and therefore the character as defined by his actions and lines) but as it's a different actor it's a different person (the name). The two merge in both being called M.

It makes sense to me anyway...

[Mister Asterix]

All I know for sure is Brown did not play Hargreaves as M. Hargreaves was a Vice Admiral, Brown’s M — like Lee’s — was the lesser rank of Rear Admiral.

[marktmurphy]

All I know for sure is Brown did not play Hargreaves as M. Hargreaves was a Vice Admiral, Brown’s M — like Lee’s — was the lesser rank of Rear Admiral.

I don't remember seeing him in uniform; how was that established?

[Mister Asterix]

All I know for sure is Brown did not play Hargreaves as M. Hargreaves was a Vice Admiral, Brown’s M — like Lee’s — was the lesser rank of Rear Admiral.

I don't remember seeing him in uniform; how was that established?

M wears Rear Admiral stripes in the pre-titles of The Living Daylights.

[marktmurphy]

Ah yes; forgot about that one- very good!

[DamnCoffee]

I voted for Hargreaves - It would be really cool to imagine that the same guy in The Spy Who Loved Me was premoted to head of the secret service.

[Skudor]

All I know for sure is Brown did not play Hargreaves as M. Hargreaves was a Vice Admiral, Brown’s M — like Lee’s — was the lesser rank of Rear Admiral.

I don't remember seeing him in uniform; how was that established?

M wears Rear Admiral stripes in the pre-titles of The Living Daylights.

He was on an airplane - I'm sure that means you drop a couple of ranks if you're a navy guy.
Seriously.

[Napoleon Solo]

And there's the issue of the Bernard Lee/M portrait at the Secret Service castle in Scotland in The World is Not Enough. (Personally, I had viewed Lee and Brown as the same character but based on the on-screen clues, I can see why you can make the case otherwise.)

[Mister Asterix]

I voted for Hargreaves - It would be really cool to imagine that the same guy in The Spy Who Loved Me was premoted to head of the secret service.

Perhaps it would be really cool. But, alas, it is not the case.

And there's the issue of the Bernard Lee/M portrait at the Secret Service castle in Scotland in The World is Not Enough. (Personally, I had viewed Lee and Brown as the same character but based on the on-screen clues, I can see why you can make the case otherwise.)

So if Lois Maxwell’s picture showed up in a future Bond film (ignoring the continuity reboot) would that mean that Samantha Bond and Caroline Bliss were different characters from her? I’m not getting your point.

The only on-screen evidence I’ve seen is the rank issue, which proves Brown’s M is not Hargreaves.

[Publius]

I'm not sure whether Brown's M is the same as Lee's or not, but I don't think that issue even crossed the minds of EON when they cast him, just like they didn't worry about whether Dalton's Bond in TLD was different from Moore's (and in that case there was a 15+ year age difference!).

I chose Sir Miles as the "lesser of two evils" option because I think the Hargreaves theory requires a conscious decision whereas the Messervy theory can be presumed as the default.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Where's DLib!?

[Mister E]

Robert Brown was Admiral Sir Miles Messervy just like Caroline Bliss was Moneypenny.

[DaveBond21]

I've always seen them as different people.

[Single-O-Seven]

I think Judi Dench's M in the Brosnan era was Sir Miles with a different appearance.