64 replies to this topic

[cory47]

I think all of the comments being written here are interesting. This scene in the film is very striking and my initial reaction is shock at the brutality of Sylva. It is instrumental in revealing his sadism. However, I think the "waste of good whiskey" line is inappropriate. What is needed is a silent Bond with a burning look of hatred/revenge for Sylva. Take a look at Connery as Bond in "Goldfinger" when he sees each of the deaths of the Masterson sisters. Fleming's Bond has a great appreciation (and sometimes love) for women, especially hurt or 'damaged' women. Severine certainly qualifies as a hurt/abused/damaged woman. Maybe Craig's Bond in this scene IS masking his disgust by uttering the "waste of good whiskey" line but it isn't very clear to me. Certainly not as effective as a "you're going to get yours, you bastard" look would have been. Even a weakened and confused Bond would have managed this. As I said, this is a striking scene and certainly stands out in the film.

[Dustin]

I'm undecided there. What does the line really mean? Bond claims the waste of good whiskey because Silva would not have needed to put up all the show when he was determined to shoot Severine anyway, which in turn might have Bond move earlier. So Bond was tricked into believing it mattered if he failed the contest. He let Silva win thinking he would then let Severine off the hook, either immediately or after he's shown his superior marksmanship.

[Shot Your Bolt]

The only real reason I can figure why Bond let the assination happen is because it needs to happen for plot purposes. He cashes in the chip, gets the briefcase to fight with, gets to meet with sexy dress lady.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

At least

Spoiler

Bond prevents Patrice to kill the chinese guy in

007 Legends. I can die happy now (no pun intended)

[Iceskater101]

I mean I get what you mean, but at the same time. I understand what you mean with Severine because he clearly could have attacked everyone else and prevented that from happening... I feel like he could have done something about it especially because he promised her he could he kill him which technically he did later.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

I feel like he could have done something about it especially because he promised her he could he kill him which technically he did later.

That's what it got me doubtful. Remember in GOLDENEYE, the "Kill her, she means nothing to me" line and what Bond does there! I think the only time before SKYFALL that Bond did nothing to prevent an innocent woman from being killed was DAF (Plenty thrown out of the Whyte House window).

[Publius]

As a side note, if Bond was so sure the cavalry was coming, why didn't he try playing for time?

As someone who wholeheartedly enjoyed Bond using a Komodo dragon as a stepping stone, even in the context of a relatively realistic CraigBond, this scene was a rare one that bothered me. Not so much the game that he was forced to play (which was a great bit of film actually), given that he had no way of knowing how Silva would choose to end it, but in how abruptly everything changed to "we weren't actually in much danger after all!... oh, well at least I wasn't..."

I just rolled with it for the sake of the movie, and at least they later made sense of it from Silva's perspective, but it was still an odd and, dare I say it, lame moment. If you're going to trumpet the Bond theme and have Bond heroically one-up the bad guy, then I'd personally prefer it wasn't by radioed-in choppers. Just fell flat for my tastes.

[Iceskater101]

That's what it got me doubtful. Remember in GOLDENEYE, the "Kill her, she means nothing to me" line and what Bond does there! I think the only time before SKYFALL that Bond did nothing to prevent an innocent woman from being killed was DAF (Plenty thrown out of the Whyte House window).

Yeah I mean shortly after Bond took out all the guys why couldn't he have done it earlier?

[sharpshooter]

Seeing the Severine moment play out in the film, it didn’t bother me like it did some. I’m sure Bond purposefully misses, choosing not to engage in the duel because of the chance of shooting her in the head.

I knew beforehand Silva was going to shoot Severine, but really, it would’ve been unexpected for Bond. If there’s a whisky glass on her head, you naturally assume that’s what he’s going to aim for. If Bond knew what was going to happen I’m sure he would’ve lashed out earlier. For all he knew, it was purely a one-upmanship thing, ala Silva’s innuendo of “let’s see who comes out on top.”

As for the Bond theme playing while the choppers arrive, and Severine slumped dead in the background? There's a few moods going on. Silva has had a showcase of his disturbed evil. Bond has come out on top, ala Silva’s comment, but at a cost. Like the overall movie, like I’ve seen it been described, it’s a pyrrhic victory. Ultimately I think the Bond theme use is justified in the moment. Overall, he’s successful – but then we discover Silva planned to be caught.

I didn’t have a problem with the choppers arriving. I liked how Bond activated the radio on the Chimera in advance. Felt like old school Bond, ala Goldfinger.

Edited by sharpshooter, 27 November 2012 - 02:34 AM.

[Revelator]

Severine's demise definitely feels off. I'm wasn't even sure if she's dead or just fainted--she leans over but doesn't fall down. And that scene has become a lightning rod for those who didn't like the film and accuse it of callous misogyny.
Part of the problem is that we're given a detailed backstory for Severine, along with Bond's promise to protect her. Those, along with the realization that the actress playing Severine is both affecting and gorgeous, immediately create a large level of audience involvement with the character. And after all that, the character quickly gets killed off. Craig's delivery of the Scotch line is neutral enough to seem either callous or slightly shaken, and Severine gets forgotten afterward, along with Bond's failure to protect her.
The film would have been better if, after the shot of the helicopters, with the Bond theme still playing, we saw Bond walk over to the statue and revive the fainted Severine, followed by both of them looking skyward at the cavalry that's come to their rescue. While I love most Bond traditions, the sacrificial lamb/expendable bedmate nonsense should be permanently junked. CR (with Solange), QoS, and SF all have perpetuated the puritanical idea that Bond girls who have sex will die, whereas those who don't live to see the end. I'd like to see a future Bond film where there's only one Bond girl and Bond has plenty of sex with her!

Edited by Revelator, 27 November 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[Quintin Sayers]

There were elements on this in QoS too - Bond putting Mathis' body on the skip - this brutal element doesn't really come from Fleming, but is rather an invention of the screenwriters over the years (factor in JB's rough treatment of women FRWL and TMWTGG).

I thought the same about the Chinese guy being assassinated!

Edited by Quintin Sayers, 27 November 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[Iceskater101]

Severine's demise definitely feels off. I'm wasn't even sure if she's dead or just fainted
Part of the problem is that we're given a detailed backstory for Severine, along with Bond's promise to protect her. Those, along with the realization that the actress playing Severine is both affecting and gorgeous, immediately create a large level of audience involvement with the character. And after all that, the character quickly gets killed off. Craig's delivery of the Scotch line is neutral enough to seem either callous or slightly shaken, and Severine gets forgotten afterward, along with Bond's failure to protect her.

Yeah it's funny because the first time I was watching the movie, I didn't even realize that she died. I asked my mom what happened to her and when she told me Silva shot her I was confused, I mean after the second time I saw that okay she's dead. I agree with you though I think it definitely feels off. I was also dissappointed because it seemed like they were hyping her character up so I thought that she would have a way longer part in this movie then I thought, but I can't believe she was killed right away. It kind of made me mad, but whatever it isn't that big of a deal. I also don't like how Severine is forgotten. I mean Bond did fail to protect her, he told her he would kill Silva and protect her and he failed to do that. I mean I think Bond has enough sense to know that she is in danger, he definitely could have done something about it.

[PPK_19]

Yeah it's funny because the first time I was watching the movie, I didn't even realize that she died. I asked my mom what happened to her and when she told me Silva shot her I was confused, I mean after the second time I saw that okay she's dead. I agree with you though I think it definitely feels off. I was also dissappointed because it seemed like they were hyping her character up so I thought that she would have a way longer part in this movie then I thought, but I can't believe she was killed right away. It kind of made me mad, but whatever it isn't that big of a deal. I also don't like how Severine is forgotten. I mean Bond did fail to protect her, he told her he would kill Silva and protect her and he failed to do that. I mean I think Bond has enough sense to know that she is in danger, he definitely could have done something about it.

Exactly. I saw Skyfall with my sister and when she asked me what i thought of the film, i said i loved it, but was disappointed with how quickly Severine was killed off. Her reaction was "What? She died?"

Having seen Skyfall a few times now i can see how it isn't clear to some people. It does look like he missed and she merely fainted. Because of the 12A certificate i guess they couldn't show a lingering shot of a bullet in her head or anything, so they cut away quickly.

Bond did his best to protect her but as he said in the casino, "Someone usually dies." Just a shame it was her.

[jamie00007]

Not sure why people get hung up on this scene, Connery and Moore weren't above using a woman as a human shield for a bullet in the back, a lot worse than not saving Severine. I know they made Severine more sympathetic but still, she did come into Bond's life to set him up to be killed, as she did Patrice's target. And what action could he do, he had a gun literally at his head. It was only after the shooting contest and Bond and Silva had emptied their guns that the goon lowered his gun allowing Bond to act. And Bond's line about a waste of whiskey was clearly Bond showing that Silva's attempts at shocking and intimidating were useless. Just like the "What makes you think it's my first time" line.

And let's not forget that the very first scene in the film is Bond trying to save a persons life, and has to be ordered by M several times to leave him before he does.

The scene is fine.

Edited by jamie00007, 29 November 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[PPK_19]

The scene is fine.

Nothing wrong with the scene but a bit more clarity into Severine's fate wouldn't go amiss. I have no problem with Bond's reaction- like you said Bond is unflappable- i'm just annoyed that Severine didn't get a more prominent role.

[thecasinoroyale]

Me too! The BMAIS has already written a complaint to EON and Sam Mendes about Berenice's lack of screen-time in her excellent role.

But on a morbid note, I did enjoy the Silva/Bond duel, it was very well shot and very tense. And the fact Silva kept saying to her "Don't lose your head!" spelt it out what would happen - and that horrid splat when he shoots her and the glass drops. You get enough to know she's not going to be walking away from that.

And when she lifts her head up as Bond stands there, I looked past the wonderful cleavage shot the 3rd time I watched it, and the haunting look on her face, the fear in her eyes and battered face is very powerful. Yet another brilliant scene I feel.

[PPK_19]

And when she lifts her head up as Bond stands there, I looked past the wonderful cleavage shot the 3rd time I watched it, and the haunting look on her face, the fear in her eyes and battered face is very powerful. Yet another brilliant scene I feel.

Hahaha! We are cut from the same cloth, i too decided on my third viewing to actually look at her face instead of...further below. Her eyes said it all, she's a good actress. And to think i feared she would be Caterina Mourinho mark II...

[Revelator]

Not sure why people get hung up on this scene, Connery and Moore weren't above using a woman as a human shield for a bullet in the back, a lot worse than not saving Severine.

Those women were either out to kill Bond or working against him. Severine not only gave Bond vital information, but she entrusted herself to his care, despite the horrible consequences.

I know they made Severine more sympathetic but still, she did come into Bond's life to set him up to be killed.

No, she came in to be protected, and for Bond's only reaction to his failure to be a line about scotch is inadequate.

The scene is fine.

If people can't tell whether a character has died or fainted, then the scene is not fine.

[00Twelve]

Looks like Severine's death is becoming "Mathis and the dumpster" Mk. II.

He should have made out with her corpse like a real Bond actor.

[Iceskater101]

The scene is fine.

That's your opinion, I however disagree with you. I think Bond could have done something, I mean he had guards standing around him who were armed and he still did something although they clearly could have shot him. Bond definitely could have tried to save Severine and he didn't, that's just my opinion.

[thecasinoroyale]

I don't see how he could have saved Severine, he was unarmed except for the one-shot pistol, with 4 guards around him and Silva, all with weapons. If Bond tried to take either Silva out or even a well aimed shot at a guard, he would be dead.

The fact Silva's guard had a gun to his head would have rendered an escape plan useless, until Severine had been killed and there was that moment where everyone was taken aback, even Bond, but he reached for the upperhand with Silva gunless.

I really don't think he could have saved her without either him being killed, or still Severine. It was pretty much death on legs from the moment she was taken onto the island, which shows Bond disposable pleasures with the women to get what he wanted, which was only to "Meet your employer," and so he had to wait until the right moment, to think of himself, and not her.

Cold hearted bastard if you ask me, but perfect Fleming Bond.

[Dustin]

Ahem, it's not really as if Bond lets Severine die. At the beginning of Silva's game he must have gotten the impression it really is a contest, that Silva would let her go. If I replay the scene step-by-step there is no indication Silva intends to kill her. From Bond's POV it may even have seemed a good idea to deliberately miss the shot to give Silva the - false - impression he couldn't perform at this range. It's not resolved in the scene whether this was the case, but Bond has no serious problems to overcome the goons once he's in fighting mode, so the one shot at the glass must at least have been within his abilities.

Only when Silva kills Severine Bond becomes aware of his mistake. But he didn't just let her die.

[Quintin Sayers]

Ahem, it's not really as if Bond lets Severine die. At the beginning of Silva's game he must have gotten the impression it really is a contest, that Silva would let her go. If I replay the scene step-by-step there is no indication Silva intends to kill her. From Bond's POV it may even have seemed a good idea to deliberately miss the shot to give Silva the - false - impression he couldn't perform at this range. It's not resolved in the scene whether this was the case, but Bond has no serious problems to overcome the goons once he's in fighting mode, so the one shot at the glass must at least have been within his abilities.

Only when Silva kills Severine Bond becomes aware of his mistake. But he didn't just let her die.

No, at first I missed the fact she was dead, I thought he had merely shot the glass off her head. James Bond meets William Tell, an interesting idea, nonetheless. It smacked of overkill - like Zorin with the miners in AVTAK - and not really suitable for James Bond, I'm afraid. Barbarity for barbarity's sake. This should have no place in Bond - it's not in Flemuing or many of the earlier films and it shouldn't be coming in now. My brother noted the same point on his earlier visit to see Skyfall, and I imagine a lot of Bond fans actually thought the same. That's the cruelty and the sickness world we live in, sadly. See also Bond's handling of Mathis' body in QoS - in a dumper. I, for one, am happy to leave the real world at the door of the cinema - Bond should be about escapism from our fearful real world existence - not social commentary on the fates of prostitutes and pimps (although see Casino Royale novel) . I go see a Ken Loach film for that sort of thing, not a James Bond film. James Bond meets A Clockwork Orange and This is England is not a good directoruial move, but I suppose that Wade, Purvis and Logan are all equally to blame.

Edited by Quintin Sayers, 29 November 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Fgmun]

We all know Bond is supposed to be as cold as a surgeon about death, but in many films we saw him avoiding an innocent death at all costs. Why in SKYFALL he lets two innocents get killed?

STRONG SPOILERS

Spoiler

-The chinese guy with Severine: he could have prevented Patrice from shooting him.
-Severine: Silva shoots her and he does nothing!

He couldn't stop any of the events as they unfolded too quickly in front of him.

[PPK_19]

He couldn't stop any of the events as they unfolded too quickly in front of him.

Nonsense.

He had an age to stop Patrice. As for Severine, he was being held at gunpoint so there was little he could do.

Welcome to CBn by the way Fgmun

[Jim]

MooreBond sucks the air out of Fekkesh's bird then, having suitably weakened her, deliberately shoves her in front of Sandor's bullet and flings her aside.

What a bastard.

[jamie00007]

The scene is fine.

That's your opinion, I however disagree with you. I think Bond could have done something, I mean he had guards standing around him who were armed and he still did something although they clearly could have shot him. Bond definitely could have tried to save Severine and he didn't, that's just my opinion.

Like what exactly could he have done? Theres a difference between having a gun literally held an inch away from your head (as he had the entire time during that scene that Severine was alive) and armed guards who've lowered their guard (as they did after Bond and Silva emptied their guns) and given you room to act. Bond may be one to help a damsel in distress but hes not one to commit almost certain suicide and fail the mission to save a femme fatale he's known for a day and who *might* be about to be killed.

Those women were either out to kill Bond or working against him. Severine not only gave Bond vital information, but she entrusted herself to his care, despite the horrible consequences.

Yes. AFTER she introduced himself as part of an attempt to have him killed in the casino.

And what of women like the Masterson sisters? Were they not in Bond's care? Did Jill not give Bond vital information only for him to get her killed?

Edited by jamie00007, 02 December 2012 - 03:58 AM.

[baerrtt]

As the 50th anniversary entry what I liked about both those scenes were that they were reminders, forgotten it seems by some, that what helped Bond stand out in the first place compared to other fictional heroes back in the day was that he didn't always act or think in the way you expected such characters to supposedly act. Bond is not Batman, Superman or Doctor Who..consider how he is completely indifferent to Andrea in THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN for example.

[honeyjes]

The demise of Severine is part and parcel of the formula and it's not as if in the other films Bond has applied due dilligence when it came to:

Jill Masterson's safety
Tilly didn't fare much better when decapitated
Corrine Dafour became dog meat
Andrea was used discarded and forgotten by both Bond and scaramanga
Paris carver another piece of debry

There are other examples of Bond's less than chivalrous acts:

Slapping, choking and using women as shields
Forcibly ripping a womans clothes off to distract a guard
Pinning down and treating Galore with the utmost kindness (not)
And least we forget he was a real gent when he tricked Solitare into losing her virginity.

I guess some of us have selective memory when it comes to scrutinising the actions of the various Bond carnations.

[stamper]

Agreed. One thing that bothered me in that scene thought, was that the vilain shoots a guy standing in front of a valuable painting. Imagine he misses, or what's probable, that the bullets rips through the victim. He should have damaged that painting.