64 replies to this topic

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

We all know Bond is supposed to be as cold as a surgeon about death, but in many films we saw him avoiding an innocent death at all costs. Why in SKYFALL he lets two innocents get killed?

STRONG SPOILERS

Spoiler

-The chinese guy with Severine: he could have prevented Patrice from shooting him.
-Severine: Silva shoots her and he does nothing!

[thecasinoroyale]

I think for your two cases -

1) He had to let this happen, probably because if he didn't, he could cause greater damage in following a suspected trail if word got out the target was still alive, and he had no idea who the target was and if he was as innocent as he felt.

His job was Patrice, not protecting the other guy and as he wasn't aware of Silva and his motives then, he had to let as much happen as possible without blowing anything he may need in the future.


2) Bond said he would help Severine and he did as much as he could - from the man we know, he can use women as disposable pleasures, and Severine is really one of the first we see Craig's Bond do that. He had no emotional attatchment to her and did what he could do, and he learnt lessons from being too attatched to women. It's clear he's not happy with what has happened when Silva does the deed, and from that moment, he takes his time to survey the situation and manage to break away and call in back-up.

If Bond had tried anything before, like with Patrice, he may have either got himself killed or blown all possibilities for escaping with Silva, so he had to let it happen until the right moment.


An assassin by name, and by nature. A blunt instrument.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

Good points there,still it's shocking to think of

[Aris007]

Bond couldn't have done much to save Severine I'm afraid. His hands were tied. As for the chinese man perhaps he wanted to draw attention from those in the appartment. If he had stopped Patrice, he'd have reached a dead-end on his investigation.

[I never miss]

Mark Kermode said in his BBC Radio 1 review that he was shocked at how DC's Bond reacted when Severine was killed but Empire's spoiler review on itunes claimed that Bond was clearly masking his true feelings so that Silva would not get the reaction that he hoped to get. I happen to agree with Empire's take on this.

[MkB]

I'm not too sure about Patrice's target: Bond was making his approach as stealthily and slowly as possible through the glass panels, I'm not certain he could actually have acted before the shot. Something to check on DVD later!

About Severine, I'm sorry but I have a huge problem with this part of the film. His flippant comment after her death is callous (for one thing), and he has no reason to whack Silva's bodyguards after her death rather than before. After my first viewing, I thought that maybe he had needed the opportunity of her death to create a diversion and take the upper hand - which would have been a redeeming feature. But no. I've pai close attention on my 2nd viewing, and in fact he does not particularly use the diversion, he uses brute force attack, something he could have chosen to do a little earlier. As a side note, if Bond was so sure the cavalry was coming, why didn't he try playing for time?

Mark Kermode said in his BBC Radio 1 review that he was shocked at how DC's Bond reacted when Severine was killed but Empire's spoiler review on itunes claimed that Bond was clearly masking his true feelings so that Silva would not get the reaction that he hoped to get. I happen to agree with Empire's take on this.

Well really that Empire's interpretation is the only excluse for this scene. My problem is not only with the flippant comment, it's with the combination of the flippant comment and a lack of action.

[The Shark]

Looks like Severine's death is becoming "Mathis and the dumpster" Mk. II.

[FOX MULDER]

Newsflash...

Bond doesn't have feelings for women.

Casino Royale, the book and the film, made sure of that.

Girls like Severine are collateral. Bond's looking at the bigger picture.

[I never miss]

You're correct Fox. For Bond, from CR onwards, a clear focus on the mission is always foremost in his mind.

Btw the first time I saw SF in the cinema I wasn't actually sure that Severine had been killed until a few moments later. I half expected him to walk over and untie her after the helicopters arrived.

[MkB]

Actually, Fox Mulder and I never miss, I beg to disagree. Bond, in the books, DOES care about the women involved in his mission. He's a modern avatar of St George, so the damsel-in-distress-because-of-a-dragon pattern certainly is a very prominent one in Fleming's novels.

In terms of St-Georgeness, Severine's death is an epic fail.

[FOX MULDER]

Well, there's feelings, and there's 'feelings'.

I suspect Bond - and probably St George's - 'feelings' for women came mainly from somewhere between their thighs and their stomach.

Caring about saving the woman, and caring about the woman, are not necessarily the same thing.

Edited by FOX MULDER, 03 November 2012 - 11:54 PM.

[MkB]

Fox... no. Just... no!

[stromberg]

Bond couldn't have known that Silva would simply shoot Severine with his first shot. Up to this point it could all have been some sort of game to make her suffer, with Silva forcing Bond into shooting her with his trembling hand. When I first saw the scene, I thought "He didn't just shoot her now?" It was totally unexpected, for both Bond and the audience.

The "waste of Scotch" line was the distraction: "I don't care. What's next?", after which he strikes all of a sudden and kills Silva's men.

[Pussfeller]

I don't see how it's very different from the moment in GoldenEye where Bond dares Trevelyan to kill Natalya. How would it have looked if Trevelyan had done it? The only difference with GoldenEye is that the villain didn't really want the girl dead, and there happened to be a follow-up scene in which Bond reassures Natalya - and the audience - that he was bluffing. Broz and Craig wear the same mask of callousness, but Craig's film trusts the audience to understand, whereas GoldenEye chickens out and includes a scene making it explicit that Bond isn't a psycho.

[MkB]

Bond couldn't have known that Silva would simply shoot Severine with his first shot. Up to this point it could all have been some sort of game to make her suffer, with Silva forcing Bond into shooting her with his trembling hand. When I first saw the scene, I thought "He didn't just shoot her now?" It was totally unexpected, for both Bond and the audience.

The "waste of Scotch" line was the distraction: "I don't care. What's next?", after which he strikes all of a sudden and kills Silva's men.

That's the right way of seeing the scene, granted. But what can I say? I don't like it. It's still a failure on Bond's part, and he's not supposed to miss.

[Pussfeller]

He misses loads. That's sort of his character arc for the film.

[MkB]

I don't see how it's very different from the moment in GoldenEye where Bond dares Trevelyan to kill Natalya. How would it have looked if Trevelyan had done it? The only difference with GoldenEye is that the villain didn't really want the girl dead, and there happened to be a follow-up scene in which Bond reassures Natalya - and the audience - that he was bluffing. Broz and Craig wear the same mask of callousness, but Craig's film trusts the audience to understand, whereas GoldenEye chickens out and includes a scene making it explicit that Bond isn't a psycho.

You see, that's precisely my point. Bond can get away with a lot of things because he never misses (usually). He can dare the Villain to kill the girl if the Villain finally does not kill her. If he does, Bond has just lost his little psychological contest and is the fool.
Same goes for everything Bond does. Why do we cheer when he recklessly drives a 2-tons car at silly speed among crowds of innocent passers-by? Because we KNOW he will not run over a couple of children. If he did, it would certainly be the same action, but (hopefully) not the same reaction from the audience. And that's why it's escapism.

[sharpshooter]

Bond couldn't have known that Silva would simply shoot Severine with his first shot. Up to this point it could all have been some sort of game to make her suffer, with Silva forcing Bond into shooting her with his trembling hand. When I first saw the scene, I thought "He didn't just shoot her now?" It was totally unexpected, for both Bond and the audience.

The "waste of Scotch" line was the distraction: "I don't care. What's next?", after which he strikes all of a sudden and kills Silva's men.

I probably shouldn't be looking in the spoiler threads, but this moment in the film interest me, and by the sounds of it, you've nailed it. The scene seems to set up a William Tell game scenario, and this doesn't exactly eventuate. Silva goes straight for the kill, with Bond hiding any sense of anger or sorrow with a quip. Which doesn't mean he isn't hurting. And then lashing out to take charge, realising anything could happen at any moment, like it did with Severine - as drawn out games aren't on the cards.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

Bond couldn't have done much to save Severine I'm afraid. His hands were tied.

Nope! Silva untied his hands so he can play the William Tell style game

Btw the first time I saw SF in the cinema I wasn't actually sure that Severine had been killed until a few moments later.

My feelings exactly. Not until much later I've realized it.

[Germanlady]

Bond couldn't have known that Silva would simply shoot Severine with his first shot. Up to this point it could all have been some sort of game to make her suffer, with Silva forcing Bond into shooting her with his trembling hand. When I first saw the scene, I thought "He didn't just shoot her now?" It was totally unexpected, for both Bond and the audience.

The "waste of Scotch" line was the distraction: "I don't care. What's next?", after which he strikes all of a sudden and kills Silva's men.

I probably shouldn't be looking in the spoiler threads, but this moment in the film interest me, and by the sounds of it, you've nailed it. The scene seems to set up a William Tell game scenario, and this doesn't exactly eventuate. Silva goes straight for the kill, with Bond hiding any sense of anger or sorrow with a quip. Which doesn't mean he isn't hurting. And then lashing out to take charge, realising anything could happen at any moment, like it did with Severine - as drawn out games aren't on the cards.

To me, this was very clear - its very Bondian in the way, all the old films were going. Its just, that we are getting used to Crag Bond playing it differently - up to now.

1) He didn#t expect Severine to be shot right away. To me, this was a moment of surprise, that gave me another of those "unexpected" moments in the film, which I liked.
2) I thougt his response was a great ond moment. Playing the cool fish, not showing what's inside. Would YOU let your enemy know what you feel? I don't think so and much less a Bond.
3) I think, it sorta set up his immediate reaction. Without it, he might have waited for the helis and who knows, what Silva would have done then.

4) Patrices image was doubled by the mirrors or whatever and Bond needed to make sure, which was the actual person. But yes, I was waiting for him to take action, when the man was targeted. NOT doing that had an impact on me, that made pretty clear, what Bond IS - he IS a killer and has the blood of a killer. Whether we like it or not. Mission comes first and we can discuss forever, if he could have prevented it without engangering his mission, I have no answer to that. But I like, that we VERY clear now have both - the killer, with a killers instincts and reactions and the human. Makes it more interesting.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

he takes his time to survey the situation and manage to break away and call in back-up.

Nope. He uses the homing device right before showing himself up to Silva's men in the Chimera yatch.

[thecasinoroyale]

Yes, sorry Nicolas - I meant he has the chance to take down the bad guys and get the upper hand on Silva and have the back-up there to take him away.

[Hitmonk]

Bond firing on all cylinders would have surely tried to save Severine, but at this point Bond certainly isn't firing on all cylinders. I think it takes the shock of her death to wake him out of his lethargy and provoke something of the old Bond to resurface. As other people have said, the flippant remark shouldn't be taken at face value and he's really masking his true thoughts behind this.
The only problem I have with this scene is how did Bond know that the helicopters would turn up at that point in time...

[Dustin]

Vibrator alarm in his tracker device...

[chileanoperative]

Bond firing on all cylinders would have surely tried to save Severine, but at this point Bond certainly isn't firing on all cylinders. I think it takes the shock of her death to wake him out of his lethargy and provoke something of the old Bond to resurface. As other people have said, the flippant remark shouldn't be taken at face value and he's really masking his true thoughts behind this.
The only problem I have with this scene is how did Bond know that the helicopters would turn up at that point in time...

Maybe he had a watch that cued the Monty Norman Bond theme and helicopters.

[Peckinpah1976]

Looks like Severine's death is becoming "Mathis and the dumpster" Mk. II.

Totally different IMO - Mathis' death had huge impact for me because Bond held him during his dying seconds, what he did with the body afterwards isn't what's important, Severine's death on the other hand is barely acknowledged because the film-makers were too focussed on bringing the second act to a close with the helicopters and the Bond theme - I accept Bond couldn't save her but it's not even reflected upon and given the 'shag her, drop her' approach ranks as one of the most sexist uses of a female character since Roger Moore retired his eyebrow.

Edited by Peckinpah1976, 09 November 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[JazzyBond]

In all honesty why did Silva feel he needed to kill Severine in the first place? That still puzzles me! All she did was tell Bond where the boat was and what did Bond expect when he came out in the broad daylight to stand next to her? To not be caught by the goons? I guess he was just throwing himself wrecklessly in the fray to see what would happen!

[Single-O-Seven]

Silva seemed content to let those who were no longer useful to him die off. Each of his breadcrumbs, from Patrice, to Severine, to his hired guns on the island, were ultimately expendable, and he was probably glad to let them be done in so there were no loose ends.

[Golddragon71]

It's funny. When I was driving home I thought of Rosamund Pike's Line in Die Another Day "Remember i know all about you 007,..."Sex for dinner, Death for breakfast." Well, it's not gonna work with me."

Oddly enough it seems to work on everyone since her as every woman Bond slept with died

Casino Royale
Vesper had lot's of sex after the mission, then killed in Venice (by herself or another doesn't matter, dead is dead)

Quantum of Solace
Bond had sex with Miss fields....she died.
Bond never had anything more than a kiss with Cami and she survived.

Skyfall (spoilers)

Spoiler

Bond had sex with Severigne on the boat and she was killed in the morning
There's no evidence that Bond did anything with Eve other than let her shave his stubble and she survived to become.........

Lois Maxwell

Caroline Bliss

Samantha Bond

Get the idea?

Moderator's note: edited your post and put the spoilers into

[spoiler][/spoiler]

tags. Makes an easier reading and helps to avoid them.

Edited by stromberg, 09 November 2012 - 09:19 PM.

[Goldbadge]

I think in the Casino when Severine asks Bond if he can kill Silvia, it's kind of a fortelling moment because doesn't Bond reply by saying "someone usually dies" or something to that effect? Unfortunately in this case, it is Severine.