49 replies to this topic

[PrinceKamalKhan]

Which is better? Sir Rog's 3rd Bond film, The Spy Who Loved Me or his finale, A View to a Kill?

In breaking down and analyzing their components:

1977 Roger Moore > 1985 Roger Moore. I always prefered 1970s Moore to 1980s Moore when it looked more like he could possibly pull off the stunts. TSWLM wins.

Anya Amasova > Stacy Sutton. I find Anya's Russian agent the more interesting of these two, plus the fact that most of her dialogue is not screaming "James!". TSWLM wins.

Karl Stromberg > Max Zorin. Stromberg's often criticized for being a Blofeld clone but I prefer him to Zorin although my initial bad opinion of Zorin has improved over the years. TSWLM wins.

Jaws > May Day. May Day is definitely scary but Jaws is the more iconic of the two. TSWLM wins.

Naomi > Pola Ivanova. Pola's lovely but there's just something about Naomi and her wink . Both 2nd leading ladies deserved more screen time than they received. TSWLM wins.

Commander Carter < Sir Godfrey Tibbett. Both of these Bond allies are terrific but Tibbet gets the edge because of Patrick Macnee. AVTAK wins.

Felicca < Jenny Flex. Alison Doody(Indiana Jones & The Last Crusade) is one of my very favorite minor Bond girls. AVTAK wins.

MI6 Staff in TSWLM > MI6 Staff in AVTAK. TSWLM has Bernard Lee's M, hence TSWLM wins.

General Gogol in TSWLM > General Gogol in AVTAK. An equally good performance from FRWL veteran Walter Gotell in both but in TSWLM, the character is more interestingly written. TSWLM wins.

TSWLM PTS > AVTAK PTS. Both feature action in the snow, but TSWLM's is far more iconic with the Union Jack Parachute and the music never turns silly on us. TSWLM wins.

TSWLM main plot > AVTAK main plot. Saving the world from WWIII has a greater sense of urgency than saving Silicon Valley. TSWLM wins.

Lotus car chase > Fire truck car chase. I like the fire truck chase more than most but the Lotus chase with Naomi's wink and its turning into a submarine is so much more iconic. TSWLM wins.

Sequence aboard the Liparus including rerouting the nuclear weapons > Sequence in the Silicon Valley Mines including Bond and May Day's stopping the bomb. TSWLM's sequence is infinitely more exciting, action-packed and suspenseful. TSWLM wins.

Bond going to rescue Anya from Atlantis > Bond going to rescue Stacy from Zorin's blimp. The sequence with Bond coming to Anya's rescue is the most effective since Bond going to rescue Tracy in OHMSS. TSWLM wins.

Marvin Hamlisch < John Barry. Hamlisch's score is fine but John Barry is the master Bond composer with yet another haunting score. AVTAK wins.

The Spy Who Loved Me: 12
A View to a Kill: 3

TSWLM wins for me and is the much more entertaining film of the two.

[elizabeth]

Hmm, tough call, Kamal, since I don't consider those two films to be Moore's best efforts as Bond. I would say that the better of the two is AVTAK. I think it has better comedy elements and more action than TSWLM.

[Safari Suit]

So this is pitting off the most popular Moore era film with the least popular?

Hmm, I wonder which will win...

[darthbond]

To me, it's an obivious. The Spy Who Loved Me is the much better film. I agree with you in every category, with the possible exception of Zorin. I liked Walken in AVTAK. His scene with the heads of his productions on the blimp is so wonderfully played, with just the right notch of sinster played on the "drop out" line. I could also go either way on Jenny Flex and Felicia.

darthbond

[Matt_13]

Any particular reason why you're asking for feedback on this issue? I think it's pretty obvious which is preferred by most. Now, if you did, say, FYEO and TSWLM, it'd be different, but this is a bit ridiculous and will only result in the bashing of AVTAK.

[The Shark]

A VIEW TO A KILL by a nautical mile.

Infinitely stronger screenplay, performances, direction, editing, cinematography, and score. A far more sincere, humane, and "Fleming-esque" if you will (however trite and overused that phrase is) - take on Bond by Moore, despite his physical deterioration.

Can't stand the mindless praise SPY gets from the public and media institutions. An overblown, campy, mess - riding under a false pretence of tragic drama. Completely shot in the foot by Barbara Bach's inability to emote (at least Tanya Roberts did her damsel in distress role some justice), and Roger Moore's smug, foppish take on Bond (a regression from his unique turn in TMWTGG).

[Matt_13]

While I'm completely not surprised you prefer AVTAK, Shark, I think your praise of AVTAK's cinematography is laughable. None of Glen's films have any visual flair, a two year old could see that. SPY is definitely campy, but it definitely doesn't take itself nearly as seriously as AVTAK does. And neither Bach nor Roberts deserve any praise whatsoever. Moore is on form both times.

[The Shark]

While I'm completely not surprised you prefer AVTAK, Shark, I think your praise of AVTAK's cinematography is laughable. None of Glen's films have any visual flair, a two year old could see that. SPY is definitely campy, but it definitely doesn't take itself nearly as seriously as AVTAK does. And neither Bach nor Roberts deserve any praise whatsoever. Moore is on form both times.

Although some of the action sequences were lensed poorly (Firetruck chase, taxi chase etc... could have been better) - Alan Hume and Willy Bogner's cinematography throughout the opening ski/snow board sequence, is first rate. Ascot, the arrival at the Château, the murder of Tibbet, Stacey's arrival at her suburban house - Are exquisitely shot.

I'd agree some of the stuff in the San Fransisco docks and mines are dull, but there's gems among them. Hume's work is not to be understated.

As for the overall tone, I'd say both films try to take themselves fairly seriously. However, apart from some of the mid 80s fashion and cringe-worthy one liners - AVTAK has a great deal less camp. In fact it's decidedly harder-edged, interspersed with some pretty brutal deaths.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

AVTAK is my favourite of the two no question, although Spy is probably the better film. I enjoy both movies, but as a thirty something who grew up in the eighties when AVTAK was released I really can't work myself into it's faults.

[sharpshooter]

This is an instant decision. TSWLM in all areas with no competition at all.

[jaguar007]

Easily TSWLM. While TSMLW has many of the elements that I usually don't prefer in a Bond movie, it all works in that film. It teeters on that edge of going too far over the top but manages to keep from falling over.

Without TSWLM is it probably that Moore would be just as fondly remembered in the role of Bond as Lazenby and Dalton were with the public at large. It is by far the most iconic of Moore's films (and apart from GF and TB, the most iconic of all Bond films).

[The Shark]

This is an instant decision. TSWLM in all areas with no competition at all.

Score, for one.

[jaguar007]

This is an instant decision. TSWLM in all areas with no competition at all.

Score, for one.

Well not everyone will agree with that, especially the voters of the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences. Afterall, Hamlische's score for TSWLM did receive an Oscar nomination (and to date is the only Bond movie to have done so)

[Colossus]

TSWLM is one of the movies that never ceases to amaze. Also i think moore should've done TLD and LTK.

[sharpshooter]

Without TSWLM is it probably that Moore would be just as fondly remembered in the role of Bond as Lazenby and Dalton were with the public at large. It is by far the most iconic of Moore's films (and apart from GF and TB, the most iconic of all Bond films).

Agreed. In comparing the two as whole films, AVTAK isn’t even close. It doesn't even come into the equation. To me, we’re talking about Moore’s all time high and Moore's all time low. Snow Job is decent, as is Walken’s Zorin. But neither outweigh the other negative elements in the film. And they certainly don't elevate things to or above TSWLM standards.

[Messervy]

Without TSWLM is it probably that Moore would be just as fondly remembered in the role of Bond as Lazenby and Dalton were with the public at large. It is by far the most iconic of Moore's films (and apart from GF and TB, the most iconic of all Bond films).

Agreed. In comparing the two as whole films, AVTAK isn’t even close. It doesn't even come into the equation. To me, we’re talking about Moore’s all time high and Moore's all time low. Snow Job is decent, as is Walken’s Zorin. But neither outweigh the other negative elements in the film. And they certainly don't elevate things to or above TSWLM standards.

I agree on the iconic side of TSWLM. It's one of the reasons I'm so fond of it. It's actually one of my top-5 Bond movies.
But, to be honest, AVTAK isn't the "all time low" depicted by some. It has a great villain (cleverly written, and splendidly performed by Walken), some great moments (notably the scenes with Tibett), some good lines, an interesting plot, etc. Sure, Moore was too old. Sure, some scenes are plain idiotic. But on the whole it is highly enjoyable, and is a very solid Bond movie.
I'd much rather have AVTAK than, say, TMWTGG.

[The Shark]

This is an instant decision. TSWLM in all areas with no competition at all.

Score, for one.

Well not everyone will agree with that, especially the voters of the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences. Afterall, Hamlische's score for TSWLM did receive an Oscar nomination (and to date is the only Bond movie to have done so)

I'm sure they sincerely regret that decision in hindsight. Even a board as tasteless, elitist, and out of touch with the public as AMPAS.

[The Shark]

This is an instant decision. TSWLM in all areas with no competition at all.

Score, for one.

Well not everyone will agree with that, especially the voters of the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences. Afterall, Hamlische's score for TSWLM did receive an Oscar nomination (and to date is the only Bond movie to have done so)

I'm sure they sincerely regret that decision in hindsight. Even a board as tasteless, elitist, and out of touch with the public as AMPAS.

Without TSWLM is it probably that Moore would be just as fondly remembered in the role of Bond as Lazenby and Dalton were with the public at large. It is by far the most iconic of Moore's films (and apart from GF and TB, the most iconic of all Bond films).

Agreed. In comparing the two as whole films, AVTAK isn’t even close. It doesn't even come into the equation. To me, we’re talking about Moore’s all time high and Moore's all time low.

That is just the sort of mindless orthodoxy that you'd find on a Radio Times review. But one generally expects Bond fans to be a little more open minded and free thinking - as opposed to witless drivel such as:

GOLDFINGER IS the ultimate Bond film
David Arnold IS the true heir to John Barry legacay
ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE IS one of the worst Bond films
George Lazenby and Timothy Dalton ARE the worst official Bond actors
THE SPY WHO LOVED ME IS Moore's greatest Bond films
THUNBDERALL IS a tedious bore
A VIEW TO A KILL, MOONRAKER and DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER are three of the worst Bond films
YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is iconic
Éric Serra composed an awful score for GOLDENEYE
Pierce Brosnan saved the franchise
Daniel Craig IS the first (and only) 'human' and 'Fleming-eque' Bond actor

Prescribed mediocrity.

No questioning, just accepting the mainstream collective thought.

[Messervy]

Éric Serra composed an awful score for GOLDENEYE

Well, at least they got this one right!

[jaguar007]

Shark,
You may have noticed that I said

with the public at large

and then attack me by saying

That is just the sort of mindless orthodoxy that you'd find on a Radio Times review. But one generally expects Bond fans to be a little more open minded and free thinking

. This does not mean it is my opinion, just a factual statement about the public in general.

Personally I think TSWLM (along with FYEO) to be Moore's best Bond film
I personally prefer the score to AVTAK over TSWLM, but as I pointed out, back in 77 the score received honors that no other Bond score had.

There is a reason many of those things you listed are thought of in the mainstream, it is because so many people liked them. If everyone hated them as much as you do, they would have never reached those "mainstream" status.

Personally I prefer FRWL over GF, but I recognize that GF really is the Bond movie that started "Bond mania". It was so popular because there was nothing like in back in 1964. It does have some of the most memorable (iconic) scenes in the entire series. Just because you may not like it does not make it so.

Some people like country music, some prefer Rock n' roll. Just because someone does not agree with The Shark does not mean that they are mindless drones.

I personally get a little bit tired of all your negativity. I don't recall ever reading a positive post from you. You may say something good about a Bond film, but only to compare it to something negative you are saying about something else.

I sincerely hope you do not take this negative approach about everything in daily life.

[sharpshooter]

That is just the sort of mindless orthodoxy that you'd find on a Radio Times review. But one generally expects Bond fans to be a little more open minded and free thinking - as opposed to witless drivel such as:

GOLDFINGER IS the ultimate Bond film
David Arnold IS the true heir to John Barry legacay
ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE IS one of the worst Bond films
George Lazenby and Timothy Dalton ARE the worst official Bond actors
THE SPY WHO LOVED ME IS Moore's greatest Bond films
THUNBDERALL IS a tedious bore
A VIEW TO A KILL, MOONRAKER and DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER are three of the worst Bond films
YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is iconic
Éric Serra composed an awful score for GOLDENEYE
Pierce Brosnan saved the franchise
Daniel Craig IS the first (and only) 'human' and 'Fleming-eque' Bond actor

Prescribed mediocrity.

No questioning, just accepting the mainstream collective thought.

Eh, you’ve got me wrong. I’m not subscribing to “mindless orthodoxy” at all. The majority seem to share my opinion regarding TSWLM, but so what? I have a mind of my own, and think things through on a case by case basis. I know what I like, and what I don’t. I love DAF, MR, Serra's score and all those things. I just don’t like AVTAK to the extent that you do. To me, it's average. And therefore not a challenger to TSWLM.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

So this is pitting off the most popular Moore era film with the least popular?

Hmm, I wonder which will win...

I think The Spy Who Loved Me is definitely the more popular film among most fans who lived through the Moore era. Among fans who came along later, I'm not quite so sure. This may be a fairer fight than initally thought.

Any particular reason why you're asking for feedback on this issue? I think it's pretty obvious which is preferred by most. Now, if you did, say, FYEO and TSWLM, it'd be different, but this is a bit ridiculous and will only result in the bashing of AVTAK.

At one time, I would've thought The Spy Who Loved Me would've won in a landslide but more recently, I've read a lot more negative reviews of it amongst fans and a lot more positive reviews of A View to a Kill amongst fans than it got when it was first released. In this thread, elizabeth, sthgilyadgnivileht and, of course, The Shark clearly prefer it. I actually enjoy reading A View to a Kill's fans defense of the 1985 Bond film even though it's #20 out of #22 on my current Bond film ranking list.

That is just the sort of mindless orthodoxy that you'd find on a Radio Times review. But one generally expects Bond fans to be a little more open minded and free thinking - as opposed to witless drivel such as:

GOLDFINGER IS the ultimate Bond film
David Arnold IS the true heir to John Barry legacay
ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE IS one of the worst Bond films
George Lazenby and Timothy Dalton ARE the worst official Bond actors
THE SPY WHO LOVED ME IS Moore's greatest Bond films
THUNBDERALL IS a tedious bore
A VIEW TO A KILL, MOONRAKER and DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER are three of the worst Bond films
YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is iconic
Éric Serra composed an awful score for GOLDENEYE
Pierce Brosnan saved the franchise
Daniel Craig IS the first (and only) 'human' and 'Fleming-eque' Bond actor

Prescribed mediocrity.

No questioning, just accepting the mainstream collective thought.

Don't hold back, Shark. Tell us what you really think

I bolded the ones I agree with(or at least partially agree with) but I do agree that sometimes it seems there is a lot of parroting of mantras among fans concerning opinions about Bond films, characters, scores, gadgets, other aspects rather than independent thought. Speaking for myself, sometimes my opinions are with what appears to be the collective majority and other times, not. There's a terrific thread in the general Bond film discussion forum about "unorthodox" Bond opinions.

http://debrief.comma...s/page__st__390

To add to The Shark's list, some "orthodox" opinions I read a lot from fans and critics but do not necessarily hold to myself:

"On Her Majesty’s Secret Service and Licence to Kill were box office failures."
"The Man with the Golden Gun is John Barry's worst Bond score."
"Tiffany Case and Mary Goodnight are the worst and most irritating Bond girls in the series."
"Moonraker is dreadful and almost ended the series because spies should never ever go into outer space."
"For Your Eyes Only is the great savior of the series and the best Bond film made between From Russia With Love and Casino Royale."
"The fire truck chase in A View to a Kill is dreadful and should've been cut."
"Robert Brown is the worst M."
"Caroline Bliss is the worst Miss Moneypenny."
"Lupe Lamora is awful but Pam Bouvier is magnificent."
"Pierce Brosnan is the best James Bond since Sean Connery."
"Paris Carver is terrible but Wai Lin is terrific."
"The World is not Enough is the closest that the Brosnan era ever got to Ian Fleming."
"Die Another Day is the worst Bond film of all time."
"The microchip in the arm bit in Casino Royale is cool."

[The Shark]

That is just the sort of mindless orthodoxy that you'd find on a Radio Times review. But one generally expects Bond fans to be a little more open minded and free thinking - as opposed to witless drivel such as:

GOLDFINGER IS the ultimate Bond film
David Arnold IS the true heir to John Barry legacay
ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE IS one of the worst Bond films
George Lazenby and Timothy Dalton ARE the worst official Bond actors
THE SPY WHO LOVED ME IS Moore's greatest Bond films
THUNBDERALL IS a tedious bore
A VIEW TO A KILL, MOONRAKER and DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER are three of the worst Bond films
YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is iconic
Éric Serra composed an awful score for GOLDENEYE
Pierce Brosnan saved the franchise
Daniel Craig IS the first (and only) 'human' and 'Fleming-eque' Bond actor

Prescribed mediocrity.

No questioning, just accepting the mainstream collective thought.

Eh, you’ve got me wrong. I’m not subscribing to “mindless orthodoxy” at all. The majority seem to share my opinion regarding TSWLM, but so what? I have a mind of my own, and think things through on a case by case basis. I know what I like, and what I don’t. I love DAF, MR, Serra's score and all those things. I just don’t like AVTAK to the extent that you do. To me, it's average. And therefore not a challenger to TSWLM.

As long as you thoroughly question and doubt your high praise for TSWLM, then you're not mindless drone.

Personally I think TSWLM (along with FYEO) to be Moore's best Bond film
I personally prefer the score to AVTAK over TSWLM, but as I pointed out, back in 77 the score received honors that no other Bond score had.

There is a reason many of those things you listed are thought of in the mainstream, it is because so many people liked them. If everyone hated them as much as you do, they would have never reached those "mainstream" status.

I understand it thus far, but why did it strike such a chord with the masses? How has the public's conception of it changed through the last 30 years? Was the cultural Zeitgeist it captured at the time any more significant than AVTAK?

Personally I prefer FRWL over GF, but I recognize that GF really is the Bond movie that started "Bond mania". It was so popular because there was nothing like in back in 1964. It does have some of the most memorable (iconic) scenes in the entire series. Just because you may not like it does not make it so.

Don't get me wrong - I've got a lot of love GOLDFINGER. However, I just find it a bit overrated. Especially when it's almost ritualistically held in high regard, when the likes of DR. NO, FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE, THUNDERBALL, ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE, OCTOPUSSY and THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS are sorely neglected. It's a self-perpetuating cycle in the mainstream, that no one seems to question. Almost as if they're doing it by rote.

I personally get a little bit tired of all your negativity. I don't recall ever reading a positive post from you. You may say something good about a Bond film, but only to compare it to something negative you are saying about something else.

Criticism (amateur or professionalism) of any art form is meaningless without contrasts and comparisons. Art doesn't exist within a vacuum.

I sincerely hope you do not take this negative approach about everything in daily life.

I'm very upbeat in public.

[Colossus]

GOLDFINGER IS the ultimate Bond film
David Arnold IS the true heir to John Barry legacay
ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE IS one of the worst Bond films
George Lazenby and Timothy Dalton ARE the worst official Bond actors
THE SPY WHO LOVED ME IS Moore's greatest Bond films
THUNBDERALL IS a tedious bore
A VIEW TO A KILL, MOONRAKER and DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER are three of the worst Bond films
YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is iconic
Éric Serra composed an awful score for GOLDENEYE
Pierce Brosnan saved the franchise
Daniel Craig IS the first (and only) 'human' and 'Fleming-eque' Bond actor

Prescribed mediocrity.

There are a few of those that i DO agree with but none of those matter in the complete agreement in this piece of gigantic nonsense with "David Arnold IS the true heir to John Barry legacay". holy crap Eric Serra's GE score alone is better (even counting the pørn chase music) than all of Arnold's work combined!!!!!!!!

I also freakishly support YOLT the way Loomis does TMWTGG especially in the TB vs. YOLT wars but lately even TB is good so forget that.

[The Shark]

GOLDFINGER IS the ultimate Bond film
David Arnold IS the true heir to John Barry legacay
ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE IS one of the worst Bond films
George Lazenby and Timothy Dalton ARE the worst official Bond actors
THE SPY WHO LOVED ME IS Moore's greatest Bond films
THUNBDERALL IS a tedious bore
A VIEW TO A KILL, MOONRAKER and DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER are three of the worst Bond films
YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is iconic
Éric Serra composed an awful score for GOLDENEYE
Pierce Brosnan saved the franchise
Daniel Craig IS the first (and only) 'human' and 'Fleming-eque' Bond actor

Prescribed mediocrity.

There are a few of those that i DO agree with (sometimes the masses are right) but none of those matter in the complete agreement in this piece of gigantic nonsense with "David Arnold IS the true heir to John Barry legacay". holy crap Eric Serra's GE score alone is better (even counting the pørn chase music) than all of Arnold's work combined!!!!!!!!

I also freakishly support YOLT the way Loomis does TMWTGG especially in the TB vs. YOLT wars but lately even TB is good so forget that.

No, you have good taste my friend.

[jaguar007]

Well I guess I have bad taste in your eyes because I find Serra's score to be the worst in the franchise (almost as bad as NSNA, but not quite). I ESPECIALLY hate the Ferrari/Aston Martin pørn music. I'm actually quite fond of Arnold's TND score.

[The Shark]

Well I guess I have bad taste in your eyes because I find Serra's score to be the worst in the franchise (almost as bad as NSNA, but not quite). I ESPECIALLY hate the Ferrari/Aston Martin pørn music. I'm actually quite fond of Arnold's TND score.

Disliking the "Ferrari/Aston Martin pørn music" or "The Experience of Love" (as I do on both accounts) is one thing, but trashing the entire score is another.

[Turn]

Am I running some kind of risk on bringing down everybody's wrath on myself by saying I am not a big fan of either film?

Based on my very first viewings of both (TSWLM on its first ABC showing and AVTAK on opening weekend), I didn't take highly to either and my feelings haven't really changed. I like them in many ways since they are James Bond films, but don't rank either very highly.

That said, this is one of the more spirited discussions I've seen here in a while.

[Mr. Blofeld]

TSWLM is one of my favourite Bond films; AVTAK, well... it's a Bond film, I'll give it that.

It's not the worst movie ever made, but out of only 22 movies, it's near the bottom of the list, in terms of quality -- alongside Mssrs. MR, TMWTGG, DAF, YOLT, and TWINE.

...and, yes, I did form these opinions all by myself; why do you ask?

[Safari Suit]

So this is pitting off the most popular Moore era film with the least popular?

Hmm, I wonder which will win...

I think The Spy Who Loved Me is definitely the more popular film among most fans who lived through the Moore era. Among fans who came along later, I'm not quite so sure. This may be a fairer fight than initally thought.

Fair point; I'm an 86 kid and I'd probably side with AVTAK. TSWLM is definitely a far more significant film in the Bond cannon (and popular culture in general), and I certainly think Lewis Gilbert is/was a vastly more talented director than John Glen, but I've probably gotten more enjoyment out of AVTAK.