76 replies to this topic

[David Schofield]

Funny, I never heard any complaints about Pierce Brosnan or his fighting abilities when he was James Bond, but once EON didn't rehire him and he popped off about his disappointment regarding his exit and EON hiring Daniel Craig and the release of Casino Royale, then all of a sudden it's a free-for-all nit-picking feeding frenzy on Brosnan. Appratently Craig is the end all, be all, embodiment of 007 perfection while Brosnan is the good for nothing, waste of space 007 impostor.

Brosnan was a great James Bond who had lots of charm, wit, and fighting ability.

Sadly, you're absolutley right.

Though with the mentality displayed by many CBNers, not surprising.

As I summarised earlier, for many its a case of "my Daniel's harder than your pretty Pierce."

Ludicrous!

[Trident]

Funny, I never heard any complaints about Pierce Brosnan or his fighting abilities when he was James Bond, but once EON didn't rehire him and he popped off about his disappointment regarding his exit and EON hired Daniel Craig and the release of Casino Royale, then all of a sudden it's a free-for-all nit-picking feeding frenzy on Brosnan. Apparently Craig is the end all, be all, embodiment of 007 perfection while Brosnan is the good for nothing, waste of space 007 impostor.

Makes me wonder how many of these Brosnan bashers are pro-Daltonites (and pro-Craigers) who are trying to cut the popular and successful Brosnan down to size and exact a little revenge on him and EON for the abbreviated tenure of their man and the resultant general public's belief that Dalton was an unsuccessful Bond.

Brosnan was a great James Bond who had lots of charm, wit, and fighting ability--just like ALL the other Bonds.

Certainly, the manner of Brosnan's demise may play a big role in the way Brosnan is picked about now. But my impression is he simply came at the end of that particular era in Bond films. I have no illusions, should the wheel keep on turning there may easily come a time when another manner of shooting this genre makes Craig's films looking outdated. If we keep with the 'fighting' scenes one could assume the various brands of 'ultra fighting' viewers are accustomed with today would perhaps in the future lead to a similar change of style in films.

Personally, I doubt it for this kind of fighting doesn't lend itself easily to setting it in scene. It's downright ugly and lacks all kinds of effects a director would want for his film language. Yet it could come, nothing's impossible.

[DR76]

Any actor can be made to look good in a fight. Agree the GE fight is excellent. But I credit Martin Campbell (and the stunt coordinator and editor,etc.) as much as Pierce. It was a good collaboration. I think everyone wanted that to be the "Hey, Pierce can fight" fight, and it was.

I think you just described the situation for all of the Bond actors. And as I recall, the directors for REMINGTON STEELE must have done the same for Brosnan on that show. Because I do recall seeing him in a few fight scenes. Even his Steele character had some experience as a boxer and it showed.

[Colossus]

I'd just like to add that the 006 vs. 007 fight in Goldeneye is still the best fight sequence since the hotel fight in OHMSS.

It's the best fight in the series for me!

You know it just might overcome the hotel fight for me as well, even if the hotel fight had amazing choreography, the 006/007 fight had the great choreography but also the added emotional weight making it more powerful since we've been invested into both characters throughout the entire film. So far i have yet to see a good Craig fight anywhere near the 006/007 fight. For me the totem-pole fight is probably still the FRWL train fight, it's pretty much the crown jewel scene of the movie. Followed by TSWLM's rooftop fight.

In Quantum of Solace i hate the Bourney (unforunately have to use this tired word) influence especially the Slate fight, they might as well just stood together before the fight and said to the camera at the same time "Hey guys we're going to replicate the Tangier fight from Ultimatum since we loved it's oh-so-cool flippy camera and neato object improvization!" In CR it was a bit better due to a the confident action director who actually knows how to do this, The stairwell fight was good but it was against some nameless thug and had no weight to it so they figured the gimmick of being on those unbalanced stairs would make it more interesting but i dislike those gimmicks, similar to how in Revenge of the Sith the vaunted ObiWan/Anakin fight had them hopping around platforms like out of Super Smash Bros. The problem with Craig's fights since he's more effeminate sucking on fingers, and making him a 3D person with feelings, they have to make up for it by overemphasizing the grit and brutality in their insecurity, each time the camera focuses on his bleeding dirt ridden pores or when he is smashing through walls in that devil-may-care attitude i just hear "see, SEE he IS brutal and gritty!!", this in contrast to the older Connery movies when Bond choked Grant or executed Dent, this violence was treated with a ho-hum matter-of-factly way and it made them all the more brutal because of that. I know we'll get a more respectable fight scene for Craig but so far he hasn't had anything like Brosnan's/Lazenby's 1st movies or Connery's 2nd. But then again Moore had his greatest in his 3rd...

As for Dalton he is the least of all Bonds on the fighting scale, the Necros vs. MI6 agent fight was pointless even with the great choreography, because it was: some badguy we barely knew vs. some nobody. The cargo plane fight was better even if it was slow as molasses and more of a pushathon because at least we cared more about the two fighters then. And of course Roger Moore had the rooftop fight in TSWLM which was really good.

[jaguar007]

The problem with Craig's fights since he's more effeminate sucking on fingers, and making him a 3D person with feelings, they have to make up for it by overemphasizing the grit and brutality in their insecurity

Did you just say Craig's Bond was effeminate????

In the 006/007 Fight in GE, it was basically 006 beating up 007. Re watch the fight. Brosnan flys back very limped-wrist after Bean punches him. Bean did most of the fighting. Brosnan threw 2 punches, a few knee kicks and 1 body throw(he grabbed Bean and threw both bodys down).

The stairwell fight was good in CR, but Craig fighting off the guards at the Embassy really showed us his fighting skills.

[Colossus]

Yes 006 did have the upper hand in that fight but it went with the more senior/experienced angle they hinted with him between the two and pulled through with that here. This happens to be my only problem with the FRWL train fight since Bond seems to be on top of it most of the time and Grant was made out to be a more physically imposing badguy, especially in the book it's shown how Bond would barely stand a chance against him but Bond was pretty much doing most of the hitting in here and they were sort of hinting at it since Grant was lifting/throwing him around like a Gorilla.

[Trident]

Yes 006 did have the upper hand in that fight but it went with the more senior/experienced angle they hinted with him between the two and pulled through with that here.

Where did you get that impression, 006 being senior/more experienced? I had the impression both 006 and Brosnan were roughly at the same level of experience, if perhaps not ability.

[Turn]

I'd just like to add that the 006 vs. 007 fight in Goldeneye is still the best fight sequence since the hotel fight in OHMSS.

It's the best fight in the series for me!

You know it just might overcome the hotel fight for me as well, even if the hotel fight had amazing choreography, the 006/007 fight had the great choreography but also the added emotional weight making it more powerful since we've been invested into both characters throughout the entire film. So far i have yet to see a good Craig fight anywhere near the 006/007 fight. For me the totem-pole fight is probably still the FRWL train fight, it's pretty much the crown jewel scene of the movie. Followed by TSWLM's rooftop fight.

In Quantum of Solace i hate the Bourney (unforunately have to use this tired word) influence especially the Slate fight, they might as well just stood together before the fight and said to the camera at the same time "Hey guys we're going to replicate the Tangier fight from Ultimatum since we loved it's oh-so-cool flippy camera and neato object improvization!" In CR it was a bit better due to a the confident action director who actually knows how to do this, The stairwell fight was good but it was against some nameless thug and had no weight to it so they figured the gimmick of being on those unbalanced stairs would make it more interesting but i dislike those gimmicks, similar to how in Revenge of the Sith the vaunted ObiWan/Anakin fight had them hopping around platforms like out of Super Smash Bros. The problem with Craig's fights since he's more effeminate sucking on fingers, and making him a 3D person with feelings, they have to make up for it by overemphasizing the grit and brutality in their insecurity, each time the camera focuses on his bleeding dirt ridden pores or when he is smashing through walls in that devil-may-care attitude i just hear "see, SEE he IS brutal and gritty!!", this in contrast to the older Connery movies when Bond choked Grant or executed Dent, this violence was treated with a ho-hum matter-of-factly way and it made them all the more brutal because of that. I know we'll get a more respectable fight scene for Craig but so far he hasn't had anything like Brosnan's/Lazenby's 1st movies or Connery's 2nd. But then again Moore had his greatest in his 3rd...

As for Dalton he is the least of all Bonds on the fighting scale, the Necros vs. MI6 agent fight was pointless even with the great choreography, because it was: some badguy we barely knew vs. some nobody. The cargo plane fight was better even if it was slow as molasses and more of a pushathon because at least we cared more about the two fighters then. And of course Roger Moore had the rooftop fight in TSWLM which was really good.

A few responses to this post:
-You assume everybody who has seen GE is automatically "invested" in 006. Sorry, I didn't find him to be anywhere near any of the great Bond villains and therefore wasn't holding any great anticipation of an epic battle. It was a good fight and I enjoyed it, but didn't feel any more emotionally involved than any other of the best fights in the series.

-The Craig as thug thing seems to be a defensive point for a lot of Brosnan fans/defenders. All the points above concerning CR should take into consideration this is Bond at the beginning of his career. I like that these fights look brutal and that he comes out of them with cuts, nicks and bruises that don't disappear in the next scene. It is a welcome change after many years of what were basically overly choreographed and somewhat sanitized fights.

-The cargo plane fight is unique in that rather than just a bunch of fisticuffs, the two opponents have to fight for survival on the back of a plane, fighting for dear life while trying to do away with each other. It's a lot more drama than just throwing punches.

[Trident]

-You assume everybody who has seen GE is automatically "invested" in 006. Sorry, I didn't find him to be anywhere near any of the great Bond villains and therefore wasn't holding any great anticipation of an epic battle. It was a good fight and I enjoyed it, but didn't feel any more emotionally involved than any other of the best fights in the series.

The 006 plotline was the hardest thing to swallow on GE. Out of the blue Bond suddenly had a close buddy in the service and he, of all people, turned out to be a traitor. Most unconvincing and there was actually little I did 'invest', especially not belief or empathy. The fight itself was quite good, but nothing in it really kept me more on the edge of my seat than the other fights up to that point.

[Colossus]

A few responses to this post:
-You assume everybody who has seen GE is automatically "invested" in 006. Sorry, I didn't find him to be anywhere near any of the great Bond villains and therefore wasn't holding any great anticipation of an epic battle. It was a good fight and I enjoyed it, but didn't feel any more emotionally involved than any other of the best fights in the series.

I meant invested in that he is not just a random thug who pops out and fights Bond but someone we have seen from the beginning of the movie so we at least care about 006 more than a random thug, just like the end fights in FRWL and TLD too.

-The Craig as thug thing seems to be a defensive point for a lot of Brosnan fans/defenders. All the points above concerning CR should take into consideration this is Bond at the beginning of his career. I like that these fights look brutal and that he comes out of them with cuts, nicks and bruises that don't disappear in the next scene. It is a welcome change after many years of what were basically overly choreographed and somewhat sanitized fights.

Yes that is understandable that he is more rougher around the edges but that doesn't mean i like Bond to be that way, i dislike the "Bond Begins" they went for since Bond isn't Batman, in the books he never became Bond but was shaped how he was through his life experiences. His fight training is something that should have been completed before entering MI6 for cripesakes.

-The cargo plane fight is unique in that rather than just a bunch of fisticuffs, the two opponents have to fight for survival on the back of a plane, fighting for dear life while trying to do away with each other. It's a lot more drama than just throwing punches.

I did not really feel that danger of life from the airplane honestly.

[bondrules]

-You assume everybody who has seen GE is automatically "invested" in 006. Sorry, I didn't find him to be anywhere near any of the great Bond villains and therefore wasn't holding any great anticipation of an epic battle. It was a good fight and I enjoyed it, but didn't feel any more emotionally involved than any other of the best fights in the series.

The 006 plotline was the hardest thing to swallow on GE. Out of the blue Bond suddenly had a close buddy in the service and he, of all people, turned out to be a traitor. Most unconvincing and there was actually little I did 'invest', especially not belief or empathy. The fight itself was quite good, but nothing in it really kept me more on the edge of my seat than the other fights up to that point.

I agree. Even worse, is the fact that GE was Brosnan's best movie.

[dinovelvet]

The only fight Pierce put any effort into was the one against EON when they dropped him

[Turn]

[quote name='Colossus' post='1082760' date='16 January 2010 - 20:40'][quote name='Turn' post='1082626' date='15 January 2010 - 20:24']A few responses to this post:
-You assume everybody who has seen GE is automatically "invested" in 006. Sorry, I didn't find him to be anywhere near any of the great Bond villains and therefore wasn't holding any great anticipation of an epic battle. It was a good fight and I enjoyed it, but didn't feel any more emotionally involved than any other of the best fights in the series.[/quote]
[/quote]
I meant invested in that he is not just a random thug who pops out and fights Bond but someone we have seen from the beginning of the movie so we at least care about 006 more than a random thug, just like the end fights in FRWL and TLD too.[quote]

You have interesting standards then. I'd hardly call Red Grant and Necros random thugs who pop out to fight Bond. Both are in their respective films early on and establish themselves as more than just thugs. Grant in particular is set up as this menacing guardian angel of death, killing people and shadowing Bond along the way, paving the way for an anticipated showdown.

And the main villain doesn't have to appear early to make an impression Dr. No appears in the last quarter of Dr. No, but his presence is felt throughout it. Blofeld in YOLT as well.

The only real mystery I had about 006 was how he survived an explosion in the beginning of the film. His motivation is one of the thinnest of a major villain in a Bond film.

[Trident]

The only real mystery I had about 006 was how he survived an explosion in the beginning of the film. His motivation is one of the thinnest of a major villain in a Bond film.

It's also not particularly well explained when 006 changed sides and what exactly made him do it? Was he selling out on Bond and the SIS from the start? Seems unlikely, as he and Bond keep rigging up the plant with explosives. Was he changing sides when he was catched and Bond continued the operation? Why ever would he do so? The explanation of Linzer' cossack his parents apparently had been seems pretty farfeched. At any rate it hasn't prevented him from working successfully for the SIS for some time ('...all those systems we destabilised...' suggests a longer working relationship).

Also, why he should survive the explosion and turn up as the leader of 'Janus' years later seems unrealistic. If he escapes the blast it would surely still have been as Ourumov's prisoner. When the USSR tumbled down it would just be natural that Ourumov would build up the Janus organisation and make a living as their leader. How 006 should have come out of this affair on top is not tackled by the script and further undermines the 006 plotline. This would have called for more attention.

[Colossus]

You have interesting standards then. I\'d hardly call Red Grant and Necros random thugs who pop out to fight Bond. Both are in their respective films early on and establish themselves as more than just thugs. Grant in particular is set up as this menacing guardian angel of death, killing people and shadowing Bond along the way, paving the way for an anticipated showdown.

Yes isn't that what i put?

And the main villain doesn\'t have to appear early to make an impression Dr. No appears in the last quarter of Dr. No, but his presence is felt throughout it. Blofeld in YOLT as well.

I agree because a large part of it is they have been built up and hinted on before their unveilings, unlike say the guy with the machette on the stairwell in CR.

The only real mystery I had about 006 was how he survived an explosion in the beginning of the film. His motivation is one of the thinnest of a major villain in a Bond film.

I agree but then again this goes back to the old movies of SPECTRE which weren\'t exactly fleshed out badguys either!

[jamie00007]

heh, the main forum page just had this thread down as:

In: Pierce Brosnan could fight
By: Colossus

Edited by jamie00007, 19 January 2010 - 09:44 AM.

[Colossus]

Oh i see.....