76 replies to this topic

[Trident]

Craig's Bond is not a martial arts expert, just an overwhelmingly quick, athletic, and resourceful operative who uses his environments and his strength to overpower his opponents. The Slate fight is the best example of this, with Bond making use of the glass partition, book, shoe, and scissors to subdue his assailant. There is hardly any formal fighting used in that exchange, just solid reflexes.

I thought I had detected some pretty advanced Wing Tsun in Craig's fights. The close contact held over the entire scenes to me speaks of that, although I may be wrong there. Anyway, looks pretty advanced to me.

As for Fleming's Bond, he knew Judo, and was looking to write a book on the matter, so surely he had a sound knowledge of the subject. He seldom had to put it to use, but it was within his power to utilize it when needed. That is how I felt about Brosnan's Bond.

I think Bond wanted to put up a compilation of various services' textbooks on close quarters combat, IIRC. Putting together the best and most practical techniques from the point of a field agent. Judo didn't feature in the project as far as 'Goldfinger' mentions. But 'Goldfinger is the source for another vital piece of information:

Goldfinger: 'I can tell you that if Oddjob the appropriate single blow on any one of seven spots on your body, you would now be dead.'

Bond: 'That's interesting. I only know five ways of killing Oddjob with one blow.'

Apart from Bond's usual show of confidence and bravado, this fits the general impression of Bond as having undergone some commando training that's chiefly based of bludgeoning an enemy's skull as fast as possible, no holds barred, no finer points of any martial arts concerned. Also interesting here: the technique mentioned is 'blows' while Judo on the other hand for the most part is based on throws, grappling techniques and grips.

But Bond's alleged judo expertise is also questionable in light of one other circumstance, his encounter with Tiger Tanaka. Tanaka is a former kamikaze who only was alive because Japan surrendered in time. But Tanaka was also a black belt of the seventh dan with a prospect of becoming one of the highest judo practitioners of the Kodokan Academy. The matter is discussed at some length and detail, yet Bond doesn't mention with one single word his own experiences. To me this suggests he's only ever had a very passing and brief dabble into the world of judo. Probably deeper than a white belt but hardly with a more versatile knowledge, most likely concentrating on the most effective moves, grips and throws.

[jaguar007]

I wasn't as impressed with Lazenby as some folks are. Sometimes he did really well, but some of the punches he threw seemed to have none of his body behind them--just his fist swinging at the end of a flailing arm, his head going back instead of forward. So he was mixed for me.

That is how I remember Brosnan's punches. He fligs back his arm and punches, does not throw any weight apart from his shoulder into it.

[elizabeth]

as far as i can recall, brosnan was the one getting hit all the time. he reminded me of the fight scene between spider-man and the green goblin at the end of spider-man, when the camera slows down and tobey maguire's mouth is all over the place.

[Colossus]

I'd just like to add that the 006 vs. 007 fight in Goldeneye is still the best fight sequence since the hotel fight in OHMSS.

[Conlazmoodalbrocra]

I'd just like to add that the 006 vs. 007 fight in Goldeneye is still the best fight sequence since the hotel fight in OHMSS.

It's the best fight in the series for me!

[The Shark]

I'd just like to add that the 006 vs. 007 fight in Goldeneye is still the best fight sequence since the hotel fight in OHMSS.

Best fight seqeunce since Bond vs. Necros and Necros vs. MI6 agent in kitchen, for sure.

[Judo chop]

He looked pretty good in GOLDENEYE.

After that, TPTB decided to make his fight choreography less stylized and more brawlish. It didn't work for me. After seeing he and Bean going back and forth in a way that was obviously meant to look as if they'd been trained the same martial art-derived way, it looked a bit silly when all that was gone in favor of big swinging blows and wild kicks.

Also, he wasn't really of the physical stature to be as believable while performing the latter. Even when he'd gained weight for TND. The faster style of GE suited him much better, I think.

Took the words right out of my mouth. In fact, since we’ve discussed this same topic at length elsewhere, I wouldn’t be surprised if those actually were my words at one point.

Brosnan doesn’t know how to throw a convincing punch or how to run. He doesn’t know how to brawl. Not only does his stature not suit it, he is also BAD at it. To say it wasn’t his fault that his fights mostly suck and to blame the writers for putting him in failing situations is like saying it wasn’t Lazenby’s fault that his dramatic moments sucked because he is primarily a physical actor and shouldn’t have been put in dramatic situations. There’s blame all around.

The GE fight (and the TND PTS) were definitely his cup of tea. Agility vs. power. It’s a shame because Bond hasn’t really had the former for any appreciable length of time. Dalton got no time in the limelight even though he’d have been perfectly capable, I think, and now we’re with Craig whose got more Rottweiler in him than any other before.

[Trident]

Brosnan doesn’t know how to throw a convincing punch or how to run.

This is the one thing that I really have to criticise with Brosnan. I can live with fights that at times aren't that impressive; after all they are staged. But seeing him run is truly a most unconvincing spectacle, his arms and knees rising in an almost laughable way far beyond what would be physically effective. I have to say the running Brosnan always makes me think of a marionette and it's a mystery to me why this wasn't dealt with by a coach. Ok, Brosnan's specific built gives him that particular style, up to a point. But the most ludicrous sights could and should have been avoided.

[Conlazmoodalbrocra]

Brosnan doesn’t know how to throw a convincing punch or how to run.

This is the one thing that I really have to criticise with Brosnan. I can live with fights that at times aren't that impressive; after all they are staged. But seeing him run is truly a most unconvincing spectacle, his arms and knees rising in an almost laughable way far beyond what would be physically effective. I have to say the running Brosnan always makes me think of a marionette and it's a mystery to me why this wasn't dealt with by a coach. Ok, Brosnan's specific built gives him that particular style, up to a point. But the most ludicrous sights could and should have been avoided.

Hmm, not sure I agree. Craig's running along the Miami airport runway is very similiar to Brosnan's high arms and legs. I think this may be the way they're told to run. Who knows?!

[Trident]

Brosnan doesn’t know how to throw a convincing punch or how to run.

This is the one thing that I really have to criticise with Brosnan. I can live with fights that at times aren't that impressive; after all they are staged. But seeing him run is truly a most unconvincing spectacle, his arms and knees rising in an almost laughable way far beyond what would be physically effective. I have to say the running Brosnan always makes me think of a marionette and it's a mystery to me why this wasn't dealt with by a coach. Ok, Brosnan's specific built gives him that particular style, up to a point. But the most ludicrous sights could and should have been avoided.

Hmm, not sure I agree. Craig's running along the Miami airport runway is very similiar to Brosnan's high arms and legs. I think this may be the way they're told to run. Who knows?!

May perhaps be true, overpronouncing the moves for more dramatic effect. But I have seen Craig running in reality in Kralovy Vary and in the film and I didn't have that same impression of over-stretching. It may be the camera angles or the specific scenes. Have to watch CR again with an eye on Craig's style.

[Tybre]

I still doubt Brosnan had it in him to be comparable to Craig, Connery, or Dalton in terms of being a believable fighter

Dalton a believable fighter? I would put Lazenby way ahead of him in those stakes. Laz definitely looks like he could do some serious damage in all the OHMSS fights. I suppose Dalton gets a +1 for head-butting, but I don't think Dalton ever had an actual traditional two men in hand to hand combat fight to judge him by, did he? He did manage to beat up the fat prison guard from Brookside in TLD but that's not really a great accomplishment.

Airplane fight. Not a traditional round of fisticuffs, per se, but that's as close as we're gonna get.

[00Twelve]

Brosnan doesn’t know how to throw a convincing punch or how to run.

This is the one thing that I really have to criticise with Brosnan. I can live with fights that at times aren't that impressive; after all they are staged. But seeing him run is truly a most unconvincing spectacle, his arms and knees rising in an almost laughable way far beyond what would be physically effective. I have to say the running Brosnan always makes me think of a marionette and it's a mystery to me why this wasn't dealt with by a coach. Ok, Brosnan's specific built gives him that particular style, up to a point. But the most ludicrous sights could and should have been avoided.

Hmm, not sure I agree. Craig's running along the Miami airport runway is very similiar to Brosnan's high arms and legs. I think this may be the way they're told to run. Who knows?!

May perhaps be true, overpronouncing the moves for more dramatic effect. But I have seen Craig running in reality in Kralovy Vary and in the film and I didn't have that same impression of over-stretching. It may be the camera angles or the specific scenes. Have to watch CR again with an eye on Craig's style.

Think of the Madagascar sequence. His running looks absolutely nothing like Brosnan's. No ninety-degree angle to the arms, no labored breathing (notice the often-closed mouth). Craig runs quite a bit differently from Brosnan. To be fair, he spent much more time and effort training to be believable in his physical scenes. His level of physical preparation surpassed all the previous actors.

[Trident]

Brosnan doesn’t know how to throw a convincing punch or how to run.

This is the one thing that I really have to criticise with Brosnan. I can live with fights that at times aren't that impressive; after all they are staged. But seeing him run is truly a most unconvincing spectacle, his arms and knees rising in an almost laughable way far beyond what would be physically effective. I have to say the running Brosnan always makes me think of a marionette and it's a mystery to me why this wasn't dealt with by a coach. Ok, Brosnan's specific built gives him that particular style, up to a point. But the most ludicrous sights could and should have been avoided.

Hmm, not sure I agree. Craig's running along the Miami airport runway is very similiar to Brosnan's high arms and legs. I think this may be the way they're told to run. Who knows?!

May perhaps be true, overpronouncing the moves for more dramatic effect. But I have seen Craig running in reality in Kralovy Vary and in the film and I didn't have that same impression of over-stretching. It may be the camera angles or the specific scenes. Have to watch CR again with an eye on Craig's style.

Think of the Madagascar sequence. His running looks absolutely nothing like Brosnan's. No ninety-degree angle to the arms, no labored breathing (notice the often-closed mouth). Craig runs quite a bit differently from Brosnan. To be fair, he spent much more time and effort training to be believable in his physical scenes. His level of physical preparation surpassed all the previous actors.

This is exactly what I mean. Craig is evidently used to working out, used to physical effort and used to move his own body on a level familiar to the habitual athlete. Unfortunately, this wasn't the case with Brosnan, nor with his predecessors. They acted their physical parts (as far as possible of course) while being not overly physical in real life whereas Craig has a fair share of athletic training incorporated into his lifestyle.

Don't get me wrong, this is nothing to do with his impressive roman-statue style chest. Or not all of it. It just shows if somebody is doing sports of a kind as a part of his regular lifestyle when it comes to such scenes. You can see it every day in most every western city when observing the people 'jogging'. There are joggers and there are runners and the difference isn't youth, weight, speed or sex appeal. It's the simple fact that some of these people are doing their rounds for years and years while others feel pressed by their new year's resolution to 'do something' until their own sluggishness, beer, chips and tv gets the better of them by the end of January. And you have actually no problems at all to decide, which is a new year jogger and which a seasoned runner (even if he/she just idly joggs along).

[bondrules]

Brosnan fights as much as Jude Law can. Only difference, Law is a pretty good actor.

[jaguar007]

Hmm, not sure I agree. Craig's running along the Miami airport runway is very similiar to Brosnan's high arms and legs. I think this may be the way they're told to run. Who knows?!

I disagree totally. Brosnan runs as if he is "act-running", Craig looks like he is actually sprinting.

I don't say that to bash Brosnan. I really like Dalton's take on Bond but he also was not naturally physical (but he at least had a dangerous presence). I think Dalton was the worst runner of all the Bonds, he ran with his arms straight.

[Safari Suit]

What film are we talking about again? Chariots of Fire?

[Trident]

What film are we talking about again? Chariots of Fire?

LOL!

Yes, you're right. The actual running parts in the Bond films are what? 20 seconds? 30? At the most. Not quite in perspective weighing them against the entire films.

[Conlazmoodalbrocra]

Brosnan doesn’t know how to throw a convincing punch or how to run.

This is the one thing that I really have to criticise with Brosnan. I can live with fights that at times aren't that impressive; after all they are staged. But seeing him run is truly a most unconvincing spectacle, his arms and knees rising in an almost laughable way far beyond what would be physically effective. I have to say the running Brosnan always makes me think of a marionette and it's a mystery to me why this wasn't dealt with by a coach. Ok, Brosnan's specific built gives him that particular style, up to a point. But the most ludicrous sights could and should have been avoided.

Hmm, not sure I agree. Craig's running along the Miami airport runway is very similiar to Brosnan's high arms and legs. I think this may be the way they're told to run. Who knows?!

May perhaps be true, overpronouncing the moves for more dramatic effect. But I have seen Craig running in reality in Kralovy Vary and in the film and I didn't have that same impression of over-stretching. It may be the camera angles or the specific scenes. Have to watch CR again with an eye on Craig's style.

Think of the Madagascar sequence. His running looks absolutely nothing like Brosnan's. No ninety-degree angle to the arms, no labored breathing (notice the often-closed mouth). Craig runs quite a bit differently from Brosnan. To be fair, he spent much more time and effort training to be believable in his physical scenes. His level of physical preparation surpassed all the previous actors.

I accept your opinion and you raise some good points. Although when you describe Craig's running style (particularly the closed mouth), I immediately think of Brosnan running for the plane in Goldeneye. I'm 99.9'% sure that Brosnan's mouth was closed when he ran for the plane, although his running was a lot less robotic then. I think it's fair to say that after Goldeneye, he put on weight and took his eye of the ball in terms of the physical side of his portrayal of Bond.

[Jim]

What film are we talking about again? Chariots of Fire?

LOL!

Yes, you're right. The actual running parts in the Bond films are what? 20 seconds? 30? At the most. Not quite in perspective weighing them against the entire films.

Yes, but Mr Brosnan does appear to be pumping away for all he's worth, with both hands. Talented man.

[Trident]

What film are we talking about again? Chariots of Fire?

LOL!

Yes, you're right. The actual running parts in the Bond films are what? 20 seconds? 30? At the most. Not quite in perspective weighing them against the entire films.

Yes, but Mr Brosnan does appear to be pumping away for all he's worth, with both hands. Talented man.

He does. Perhaps this was a specific style of 'acting running'? Like the way they acted in the old silent films, with overpronounced gestures and mimic so the audience gets what happens on the screen in between the text panels. Would be a most traditional style.

[Jim]

What film are we talking about again? Chariots of Fire?

LOL!

Yes, you're right. The actual running parts in the Bond films are what? 20 seconds? 30? At the most. Not quite in perspective weighing them against the entire films.

Yes, but Mr Brosnan does appear to be pumping away for all he's worth, with both hands. Talented man.

He does. Perhaps this was a specific style of 'acting running'? Like the way they acted in the old silent films, with overpronounced gestures and mimic so the audience gets what happens on the screen in between the text panels. Would be a most traditional style.

Reminded me more of him frenziedly masturbating two giant invisible herons, over each shoulder.

[The Shark]

What film are we talking about again? Chariots of Fire?

LOL!

Yes, you're right. The actual running parts in the Bond films are what? 20 seconds? 30? At the most. Not quite in perspective weighing them against the entire films.

Yes, but Mr Brosnan does appear to be pumping away for all he's worth, with both hands. Talented man.

He does. Perhaps this was a specific style of 'acting running'? Like the way they acted in the old silent films, with overpronounced gestures and mimic so the audience gets what happens on the screen in between the text panels. Would be a most traditional style.

Reminded me more of him frenziedly masturbating two giant invisible herons, over each shoulder.

I egret that remark.

[jaguar007]

I just rewatched the 007/006 fight on youtube. Yes, it is a pretty good fight but it is mostly Sean Bean throwing the punches while Brosnan falls back limp wristed. Brosnan did a few knee kicks but only threw 2 punches in the entire fight and the camera angle was fairly close up so you really could not get much out of Brosnan's fighting style.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I think it's fair to say that after Goldeneye, he put on weight and took his eye of the ball in terms of the physical side of his portrayal of Bond.

He still pumped his arms, even then, though...

[bondrules]

I think it's fair to say that after Goldeneye, he put on weight and took his eye of the ball in terms of the physical side of his portrayal of Bond.

He still pumped his arms, even then, though...

He was pumping many things back then.....I suspect he still is.

[DaveBond21]

Brosnan's Bond could indeed fight, and the fight with Trevelyan is one of the best in the entire series. I also enjoy his fights with Graves in DAD (both the sword fight and the climactic battle on the plane). He also has a good battle with quite a few of Carver's men, after breaking into the safe in TND.

Plus the way he quickly turns the situation around in the banker's office at the beginning of TWINE is as much about quickness of movement and brutality as it is about the nifty gadget in his glasses.

[David Schofield]

Why do I feel that this thread is returning to the classic lines of "My Daniel's more manly than your Pierce"?

[Conlazmoodalbrocra]

Why do I feel that this thread is returning to the classic lines of "My Daniel's more manly than your Pierce"?

You could be on to something there!

[Trident]

Why do I feel that this thread is returning to the classic lines of "My Daniel's more manly than your Pierce"?

You could be on to something there!

This is certainly no question of 'manlyness' in my view. What we witnessed with the Brosnan/Craig Bonds is a general development in the style films with an emphasis on physical action were shot traditionally and are shot today. It's been stated somewhere above, with the right direction, cutting, camera work and stunt coordinator anybody can be depicted like a fierce and dangerous fighter. And this is what's been made, not just in Bonds but in most action flicks, for decades. The leading role generally was casted with a view on acting ability/box office potential/charisma. Ideally, all criteria were considered, but often a single criterium (money!!!) was enough.

The ones casted with the physical emphasis generally were the baddies: henchmen, bouncers, crooks, villains. Of course, when Lazenby was considered the producers also wanted to see him fight. But the fighting of the relatively inexperienced model Lazenby just had to convince by standards of the late 60's. And Lazenby was reasonably fit, far more than Connery at the time, and he had a very defined and impressive physique. I can see very well why he passed the test and the final product makes this side of him really shine.

What followed with Connery's comeback, Moore and Dalton were reasonbly well staged fights that at times made the most of their confined space (the lift fight in DAF) or incorporated a variety of battlegrounds (Venice fight in MR). Dalton's fight with Necros in TLD is certainly a highlight as is the film's other Necros fight with the guard.

Brosnan's struggles tried for the most part to keep this tradition up. What worked against him was not a general lack of ability but a growing indifference on the audiences' side to accept such fights and be thrilled by them. Two main reasons for this are

a)a growing ridiculousness where a middle-aged (or is the term en vogue now best-ager?) hero single-handedly subdues whole gangs of adversaries while his pouch is only too visible

b)the competition working the genre turning up with younger, fitter and more versatile heroes that really look as if they could hold themselves in a fight.

The problem here is not that the usual fights were staged; the 'modern' ones still are, even to a higher degree with less room for failure. The whole dynamic of film fighting (at least the top segment of film fighting, and this is where Bond should be found) has changed. Fights are developed with a higher speed, leaving out all gaps. Take a look at the Necros/guard fight of TLD. While doubtlessly speedy there are still breaks, tiny moments where the actors could get their bearings. The Moore fights were full of them, attack, defence, retreat with ample room for cuts and pauses.

Now take a look at a Craig or Bourne fight. There is far less of this stuff, the phases of attack-defence-retreat-counterattack are completely blended into each other, the speed is up several notches and the whole affair is happening so fast and so blurred that you only can follow its details on DVD. The effect on the audience is that these fights seem somehow more 'real' or 'authentic'. Of course they aren't'; they still are staged, artificial affairs only tailored to satisfy our viewing appetite and expectations on 'action' in this particular genre (and neither Craig nor Damon are vicious killing machines; they just can look the part if necessary).

Brosnan's problem, or perhaps better our problem with Bronsnan's fights, is that he came to the party at the very end of the 'classic' era when audiences were already a bit tired of these traditional fighting scenes. I daresay had he started 15 to 20 years earlier we wouldn't discuss much of his fights or his general physical ability.

Brosnan was casted because he absolutely looked the part, his presence was what probably every art director in every ad agency would have ordered if he had to start a Bond-themed campaign. But the moving Bond had become an affair that relied to an increasing degree on abilities that called for a far greater physical presence. No, the stuntmen weren't kicked out of the picture, but the times when Moore just could hold his face to the camera in front of a blue screen were also gone. Audiences wouldn't get to know Bourne or Craig's Bond for some years, but the day they entered the picture was also the day that made Brosnan's work pale in comparison.

Which wasn't Brosnan's fault. It's just the times moving on.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Funny, I never heard any complaints about Pierce Brosnan or his fighting abilities when he was James Bond, but once EON didn't rehire him and he popped off about his disappointment regarding his exit and EON hired Daniel Craig and the release of Casino Royale, then all of a sudden it's a free-for-all nit-picking feeding frenzy on Brosnan. Apparently Craig is the end all, be all, embodiment of 007 perfection while Brosnan is the good for nothing, waste of space 007 impostor.

Makes me wonder how many of these Brosnan bashers are pro-Daltonites (and pro-Craigers) who are trying to cut the popular and successful Brosnan down to size and exact a little revenge on him and EON for the abbreviated tenure of their man and the resultant general public's belief that Dalton was an unsuccessful Bond.

Brosnan was a great James Bond who had lots of charm, wit, and fighting ability--just like ALL the other Bonds.