76 replies to this topic

[007mission]

Many people say that he doesn't fight good but everyone doesn't remember the fight with Sean bean in goldeneye

[jaguar007]

yes, and if I recall, Sean Bean did most of the punching

[The Shark]

Many people say that he doesn't fight good but everyone doesn't remember the fight with Sean bean in goldeneye

Yes he could. But not better than Roger Moore, Daniel Craig, Timothy Dalton, George Lazenby, and Sean Connery.

[Dell Deaton]

Many people say that he doesn't fight good but everyone doesn't remember the fight with Sean bean in goldeneye

There are numerous examples of excellent fights where Pierce Brosnan credibly delivers a James Bond as winner. I've often wondered if "Many people" don't feel insecure about the Bond actor they are advocating, thus bash (no pun intended) Mr. Brosnan in a (sorry) attempt to enhance their argument.

Obviously it's as silly as any comparison to Sean Connery. After all, it's not exactly like he is, today, in 2010, a viable candidate to play 007 again.

Let each stand on his own.

[Dr.Fell]

Many people say that he doesn't fight good but everyone doesn't remember the fight with Sean bean in goldeneye

Yes he could. But not better than Roger Moore, Daniel Craig, Timothy Dalton, George Lazenby, and Sean Connery.

Watching Sean Connery in The Rock the following year, he could still kick Pierce Brosnan's in Goldeneye.

[Turn]

While not a huge fan of Brosnan's Bond, I have never had any problems with believing in his fighting abilities or his physical side when it comes to action.

No, he isn't a patch on most of the other actors who've played Bond, but I have to admit I was surprised he delivered pretty well in my view.

[Publius]

I think the problem I have with seeing him as a credible physical threat is that in so many respects he was set up to be the ever-polished Bond with the always perfect hair. Even when they tried to go "gritty," it fell flat, as if their hearts weren't really in it and they were just forcing it to prove his Bond wasn't one-dimensional. He always came across as an upper-class, socialite Bond.

I still doubt Brosnan had it in him to be comparable to Craig, Connery, or Dalton in terms of being a believable fighter, but I'm sure it could have been respectably closer if the approach was completely different from the pastiche they were going for with his movies.

[dinovelvet]

I still doubt Brosnan had it in him to be comparable to Craig, Connery, or Dalton in terms of being a believable fighter

Dalton a believable fighter? I would put Lazenby way ahead of him in those stakes. Laz definitely looks like he could do some serious damage in all the OHMSS fights. I suppose Dalton gets a +1 for head-butting, but I don't think Dalton ever had an actual traditional two men in hand to hand combat fight to judge him by, did he? He did manage to beat up the fat prison guard from Brookside in TLD but that's not really a great accomplishment.

[Dr.Fell]

I still doubt Brosnan had it in him to be comparable to Craig, Connery, or Dalton in terms of being a believable fighter

Dalton a believable fighter? I would put Lazenby way ahead of him in those stakes. Laz definitely looks like he could do some serious damage in all the OHMSS fights. I suppose Dalton gets a +1 for head-butting, but I don't think Dalton ever had an actual traditional two men in hand to hand combat fight to judge him by, did he? He did manage to beat up the fat prison guard from Brookside in TLD but that's not really a great accomplishment.

I have to agree. Dalton to me appeared very physical but not a fighter. And given that you never saw him any intense hand to hand combat it's had to say if he would 1up Brosnan's Bond.

[00Twelve]

He looked pretty good in GOLDENEYE.

After that, TPTB decided to make his fight choreography less stylized and more brawlish. It didn't work for me. After seeing he and Bean going back and forth in a way that was obviously meant to look as if they'd been trained the same martial art-derived way, it looked a bit silly when all that was gone in favor of big swinging blows and wild kicks.

Also, he wasn't really of the physical stature to be as believable while performing the latter. Even when he'd gained weight for TND. The faster style of GE suited him much better, I think.

After those first two movies, there was much less to be impressed with. But he was given less to do as well. The crowning turd, IMO, was the Renard fight. That, though, had more to do with a failure to use the potential that Renard had been given with his lack of feeling. That should have been downright grisly and it was weaker than a can of O'Doul's.

[crheath]

Many people say that he doesn't fight good but everyone doesn't remember the fight with Sean bean in goldeneye

Yes he could. But not better than Roger Moore, Daniel Craig, Timothy Dalton, George Lazenby, and Sean Connery.

Lazenby, now that guy could kick some !

[Monkeyfoahead]

He could fight, but Connery was Highlander, so that means it's an instant win.

[DR76]

After that, TPTB decided to make his fight choreography less stylized and more brawlish. It didn't work for me. After seeing he and Bean going back and forth in a way that was obviously meant to look as if they'd been trained the same martial art-derived way, it looked a bit silly when all that was gone in favor of big swinging blows and wild kicks.

Also, he wasn't really of the physical stature to be as believable while performing the latter. Even when he'd gained weight for TND. The faster style of GE suited him much better, I think.

After those first two movies, there was much less to be impressed with. But he was given less to do as well. The crowning turd, IMO, was the Renard fight. That, though, had more to do with a failure to use the potential that Renard had been given with his lack of feeling. That should have been downright grisly and it was weaker than a can of O'Doul's.

Sounds like to me that the problem was not Brosnan. Not only was he impressive in GE, he was pretty good on REMINGTON STEELE. Sounds like the directors for TND, TWINE and DAD were the problem.

[00Twelve]

myself

Sounds like to me that the problem was not Brosnan. Not only was he impressive in GE, he was pretty good on REMINGTON STEELE. Sounds like the directors for TND, TWINE and DAD were the problem.

I'd say that's ultimately the situation, yep.

[David Schofield]

Here's a thought, though.

How many fights did Fleming's Bond have, particularly in the early novels?

Its not all about bench pressing a truck, this James Bond lark.

[00Twelve]

Here's a thought, though.

How many fights did Fleming's Bond have, particularly in the early novels?

Its not all about bench pressing a truck, this James Bond lark.

Not many, that's for sure.

His violent moments were short bursts of fury, like The Robber's demise. Still, I could see someone like Craig in that moment a lot sooner than Brosnan.

[Trident]

Here's a thought, though.

How many fights did Fleming's Bond have, particularly in the early novels?

Its not all about bench pressing a truck, this James Bond lark.

That's a very good point. Fleming's Bond isn't the martial arts expert. Physical fights are few and then generally of the version where Bond just throws himself onto his adversary to try to strangle him, as he once tries (without success) on Goldfinger at his factory and later with better luck on the airplane.
Similarly with Blofeld at his Japanese castle, where a short sword vs. cane fight prolonged matter.

The hardest fight I seem to remember would have been with Red Grant, but even that was only roughly a page. Bond stabs with his dagger and even after that Grant is still almost able to overpower him. The rescue comes in the shape of Grant's book-gun that Bond fires at his face. After the fight Bond has to struggle to get back his bearings.

I really only remember one fight where Bond wasn't armed himself, the moment he was beat up at Blofeld's castle before the Question Room. He takes several heavy punches but remains conscious. After the tenth blow he knows he must defend himself as long as he's still got the strength. He kicks his adversary's balls and throws a chair at one of the other guards. But he would doubtlessly have soon been taken out by the numbers of remaing guards, had Blofeld not ended their advance on Bond with the order to take him to the geyser seat.

[David Schofield]

Yes, Fleming's Bond invariably hid his physical weakness (compared with the oposition - though Brozza-bashers should take note) by being behind a gun, knife or "Rolex as knuckle-duster" whenever possible.

Now, it might be that EON could have played up to this by having Brosnan get involved in fewer fisticuffs, BUT it IS more in keeping with the literary Bond for the character to be less physically cabable than his opponent.

I don't see lit-Bond chasing a villain up a crane; he'd wait for him to come down and then disarm him with the gun in his - BOND'S - holster.

[Trident]

Yes, Fleming's Bond invariably hid his physical weakness (compared with the oposition - though Brozza-bashers should take note) by being behind a gun, knife or "Rolex as knuckle-duster" whenever possible.

Now, it might be that EON could have played up to this by having Brosnan get involved in fewer fisticuffs, BUT it IS more in keeping with the literary Bond for the character to be less physically cabable than his opponent.

I don't see lit-Bond chasing a villain up a crane; he'd wait for him to come down and then disarm him with the gun in his - BOND'S - holster.

Absolutely. In LALD Bond inspects the possible attacks on his and Solitaire's compartment in the Silver Phantom. He muses about the possibility of an attacker blowing some deadly agent through the waste pipes in the lavatory, but immediately dismisses the idea for 'the operator would have to be a daring and skilled acrobat'. For EON the chance to show such an operation, possibly jazzed up with a fight, would just be too good to let it go. That's just the demands of the big screen and the law of catering to a visual medium.


But back on topic, Brosnan's fights:

Somewhere along the line the decision was made to give Brosnan a very macho-approach, for example the TWINE scene at the casino when Bond want's to talk to Zukovsky. One of the (in-)security personnel is pinned with his tie to the bar and then is seperated from his gun. Apart from the enormous stupidness of the x-ray glasses (Bond would be able to identify the security people and would know they'd carry without the need to see it in the glasses) it's also a painfully bold move, rendering all cover useless and calling for the attention of the entire room.

It's a typical cowboy/saloon scene and apart from it's very unconvincing content it also just doesn't sit well with Brosnan's depiction of Bond. Compare that scene to NSNA's (basically same) scene when Connery traps the guard in a wardrobe and also disarms him. That scene is likewise over the top, but ever so far more in character with Bond. Plus, big plus, it doesn't stretch our suspend of disbelief by suggesting Bond could single-handedly stare down a whole platoon of security guards.

I think that's what went wrong with much of the fights in the Brosnan era, a too much of adversaries that resulted in none of them being very memorable or impressive.

[zencat]

Any actor can be made to look good in a fight. Agree the GE fight is excellent. But I credit Martin Campbell (and the stunt coordinator and editor,etc.) as much as Pierce. It was a good collaboration. I think everyone wanted that to be the "Hey, Pierce can fight" fight, and it was.

[Major Tallon]

Here's a thought, though.

How many fights did Fleming's Bond have, particularly in the early novels?

Its not all about bench pressing a truck, this James Bond lark.

That's a very good point. Fleming's Bond isn't the martial arts expert. Physical fights are few and then generally of the version where Bond just throws himself onto his adversary to try to strangle him, as he once tries (without success) on Goldfinger at his factory and later with better luck on the airplane.
Similarly with Blofeld at his Japanese castle, where a short sword vs. cane fight prolonged matter.

The hardest fight I seem to remember would have been with Red Grant, but even that was only roughly a page. Bond stabs with his dagger and even after that Grant is still almost able to overpower him. The rescue comes in the shape of Grant's book-gun that Bond fires at his face. After the fight Bond has to struggle to get back his bearings.

I really only remember one fight where Bond wasn't armed himself, the moment he was beat up at Blofeld's castle before the Question Room. He takes several heavy punches but remains conscious. After the tenth blow he knows he must defend himself as long as he's still got the strength. He kicks his adversary's balls and throws a chair at one of the other guards. But he would doubtlessly have soon been taken out by the numbers of remaing guards, had Blofeld not ended their advance on Bond with the order to take him to the geyser seat.

Don't forget Bond's fight with Frasso and McGonigle in Diamonds Are Forever, another combat where Bond didn't display much finesse, and certainly no martial arts prowess.

As for Brosnan, I think he's credible in the fisticuffs scenes. It's an aspect of his portrayal about which I have no complaints.

[jaguar007]

Fleming's Bond isn't the martial arts expert.

Bond has never been portrayed as a martial arts expert in the films either.

[Trident]

Fleming's Bond isn't the martial arts expert.

Bond has never been portrayed as a martial arts expert in the films either.

Not sure about that. It's not been mentioned per se, but the general impression given in the films is he's quite a very capable fighter and especially Craig's fights are hardly possible without a more than passing acquaintance with the matter. It's of course for visual reasons, but the emphasis on physical violence is at least one step from what Fleming depicted.

[Rufus Ffolkes]

Brosnan was fine in the fight scenes and brought far greater physicality to the role than say Moore, but he wasn't an imposing physical presence.

Rather than trying to look tough and intimidating, I think he should have gone the opposite route - playing Bond as a man who initially tries to avoid physical confrontation, but proves himself surprisingly capable in a fight.

[Trident]

Brosnan was fine in the fight scenes and brought far greater physicality to the role than say Moore, but he wasn't an imposing physical presence.

Rather than trying to look tough and intimidating, I think he should have gone the opposite route - playing Bond as a man who initially tries to avoid physical confrontation, but proves himself surprisingly capable in a fight.

Exactly what I meant with my earlier example, the macho-fighting didn't come well from Brosnan; less often but more memorable and tougher (as Goldeneye did) would have been the better route in my opinion. But Brosnan certainly wasn't unconvincing, at least not to the vast majority of his audiences and fans.

[jaguar007]

Fleming's Bond isn't the martial arts expert.

Bond has never been portrayed as a martial arts expert in the films either.

Not sure about that. It's not been mentioned per se, but the general impression given in the films is he's quite a very capable fighter and especially Craig's fights are hardly possible without a more than passing acquaintance with the matter. It's of course for visual reasons, but the emphasis on physical violence is at least one step from what Fleming depicted.

Capable fighter yes, but not in martial arts type fighting, more brawling style. Although if I recall correctly it is mentioned in one of Fleming's books that Bond was trained in judo or some other for of martial arts (some of the books I have not read in 20 years), it may have been in his dossier in FRWL.

[Trident]

Judo, yes. The dossier in FRWL mentions a basic familiarity with judo, as does LALD where Bond uses judo tactics on his underwater way to Mr Big. Also YOLT's epitaph mentions Bond started the first serious judo class at his school. But apart from these impressive entries in his file there is never given any substantial proof that he's ever done an 'uchi-geri','kesa-gatame' or 'uki-goshi'. It's much like Bond's everyday excersise regimen: apart from sounding impressive it's not terribly grounded in reality. Bond just kicks and punches as best he can and succeeds.

[Dell Deaton]

Here's a thought, though.

How many fights did Fleming's Bond have, particularly in the early novels?

Its not all about bench pressing a truck, this James Bond lark.

Maybe that's the real question-- "Who was/is most consistent with the Ian Fleming model. After all, if you want Arnold, you've got True Lies.

[Matt_13]

Brosnan was fine in the fight scenes and brought far greater physicality to the role than say Moore, but he wasn't an imposing physical presence.

Rather than trying to look tough and intimidating, I think he should have gone the opposite route - playing Bond as a man who initially tries to avoid physical confrontation, but proves himself surprisingly capable in a fight.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on this matter. Craig's Bond is not a martial arts expert, just an overwhelmingly quick, athletic, and resourceful operative who uses his environments and his strength to overpower his opponents. The Slate fight is the best example of this, with Bond making use of the glass partition, book, shoe, and scissors to subdue his assailant. There is hardly any formal fighting used in that exchange, just solid reflexes.

As for Fleming's Bond, he knew Judo, and was looking to write a book on the matter, so surely he had a sound knowledge of the subject. He seldom had to put it to use, but it was within his power to utilize it when needed. That is how I felt about Brosnan's Bond.

[MajorB]

I thought Brosnan did very well with most of the physical stuff. He didn't exude the physical power than Connery did, but he always seemed very quick--quick repsonses, moved fast, very agile. I wasn't as impressed with Lazenby as some folks are. Sometimes he did really well, but some of the punches he threw seemed to have none of his body behind them--just his fist swinging at the end of a flailing arm, his head going back instead of forward. So he was mixed for me.