352 replies to this topic

[Double-0-7]

Yes. I thought his work on Quantum of Solace was his best yet.

Same here. He went from improving with each film to 'right up there with Barry' with Quantum of Solace. I find myself skipping to that disk in my car on a regular basis.

[The Shark]

The very definition of complimenting an image is to create music that both responds to and supports it (at least that's all I meant). Of course Arnold's (and Barry's) tracks follow structurally what's happening onscreen. That's what I'm saying good action composing is. Highlighting that relationship and providing melodic and rhythmic drive that contributes to the entire sensual experience.

And how could you, personally, have any idea about the level of knowledge David has regarding musical theory? I'd think if he couldn't transpose between keys and understand scales, they likely wouldn't have put him in charge of scoring multiple films with budgets combining to form something near to or over $1 billion.

No proficient knowledge. Come on. At least some have an abundance of pretentious knowledge, it seems.

No, I've worked hard to gain the knowledge I have, nothing pretentious about this.

Yes you're all of the Bond composers (even Sierra to a lesser) created compsoitions taht followed strucually to narrative of a scene, fair point. But Arnold seems to have taken it another level, where the music is almost provdiing the job the visual story should be doing alone, and comes off as overbearing and uncessearly.

You don't don't several heavy synth tracks providing an intrusive rhythm, any moth than timpani, tempo, dynamics, editing, sound effects, and timpani can provide.

I don't have a personal knowledge of Arnold's understanding of music theory, but I've heard enough from his scores over the last decade, to make estimations about what he can and can't do. Not that I spend that much time thinking about it.

Naturally as the documentary pointed out he has a chief orchestrator and conductor who writes out individual orchestral parts for Arnold, so he could also be at fault, even if he has classical training (not even the most highly trained are infallible). So Arnold doesn't need to have a great understanding of music to do his job, all he needs is a close network of colleagues to help him out. I'd prefer someone who didn't need this helping hand, that's all.

You've got to be kidding on this one. Now he's not just 'unproficient' in terms of musical theory, but you want to suggest he's limited in his understanding of Barry's "sound"? What else can he possibly do (aside from producing Shaken & Stirred, and scoring 5 Bond films in the obviously referential yet progressive style) to acquit himself of another subjective load of whooey like that?

I'd say he's s got as much as understanding of Barry as the Propellerheads had. He's a electronics wizzard first and foremost, that's where his strengths lie.

You're getting unnecessary defensive here, I didn't mean to cause any offence. Don't what I say personally.

You're just equivocal padding.

**** it. If you want to resort petty ad hominem attacks twisting my words then so be it. You think I was attacking your religion for Christ's sake. I'm not asking you to appear in court before a defence on behalf of Arnold.

And it does mean something. It means that, in conjunction with my earlier point on his ability to compliment the image with the appropriate sound, his music stands alone as narratively driven and interesting to listen to. He tells the story through the score. It's not a REQUISITE for film scores, but it's impressive to me when it's pulled off.

In the context of the film maybe, when they're mixed in with the gunshots, crashes and talking. But on they're on I don't find them interesting or compelling to listen to. Kind of like a McDonald's meal, satisfying at first after you've eaten it, but soon want something more.

He doesn't drift off into "what would sound pleasant here" or leave the film behind to focus on the music. His score remains tightly connected to the story and the image throughout the duration. He scores everything very specifically. In other blockbuster films you'll often hear the same tracks re-used multiple times (think Spider-Man, or something) almost as if the studio had said "we like that piece, use it again. And again." That rarely seems to happen with Arnold.

I disagree. It's ratified find these days to hear a soundtrack composed with bits

that "would sound pleasant here", more often than not they're too focused being mini directors themselves and trying to focus on the intricacies of the narrative, to really about the music they're composing, and whether or not it will stand up to the test of time. Just because there's countless terrible soundtracks out now Spider-man included, doesn't mean one should aim slightly the gutter. What you're describing his is a default requirement, for the composer to score tracks individually, as have most composers done since the dawn of the industry.

don't mind to sound harsh with this, but we've got to be realistic in discussing it. Arnold isn't some dullard who just hums out redundant melodies, adds a techno beat, and then tells Nicholas Dodd to orchestrate and conduct it.

To be honest here, the documentary didn't do anything to disprove that rumour, let's just say that. I have respect for the guy (hey believe it or not) but I don't think he's right for the job.

Granted, his Brosnan scores weren't as differentiated as Barry's and he does borrow from himself quite often - but it's not like Barry himself didn't have similar trappings (using "007 theme" verbatim as action music, for example). I've never said Arnold was better, but I think he's by far the best alternate choice.

I still think there are better choices out there, at least for a one-only try out experiment, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and maybe we might even miss Arnold. Who knows?

[Professor Dent]

Yes. I thought his work on Quantum of Solace was his best yet.

Same here. He went from improving with each film to 'right up there with Barry' with Quantum of Solace. I find myself skipping to that disk in my car on a regular basis.

I've been enjoying the Quantum of Solace soundtrack a lot lately too. I'm hoping he gets the nod to score Bond 23.

[Turn]

He's very conscious of what a Bond score is, past and present, and what the fans expect to hear out of one.

If this is so, then why do I NOT want him to return?

After a promising start in TND, he's delivered four consecutive scores that are basically interchangeable with one another. I don't feel any helps to distinguish the films from each other although the action on the screen does.

Think of it this way: if there was to be a scene in the next film reminiscent of the resignation scene in OHMSS where memorable themes of past films come up as Bond goes through old memories, it likely wouldn't work. Or even in TMWTGG where Sheriff Pepper tries to place Bond and a few bars of LALD's theme are played.

I would gamble to say if you played me a random track from any Arnold score from TWINE through QoS, I may not be able to guess which it is from. And that seems to be the problem with Arnold's work for me.

He seems to do well with small tracks, such as Inside Man and The Dead Don't Care About Vengance from QoS, basically the same track, and the end of the teaser when Bond drives to the villa after the car chase with a hint of an Italian Bond theme. I also like the beginning of African Rundown, where the variant of the theme song works perfectly. We get snippets of it again later on, but it's sorely lacking when it counts.

As an example, I recall listening to the CR soundtrack a couple years ago on a long drive and the Miami International track was playing. My mind began to drift, I looked at the CD counter about 10 minutes later and it was the same track droning on and on. It left me wondering how a scene that was so intense and a rush in the cinema and on video can have the opposite affect when left with just the music? Same with the DC3 and Target Terminated tracks on QoS. Arnold's action themes especially go nowhere with just beats and nothing to accentuate the action.

I can listen to the OHMSS soundtrack time and again on such a trip and certain tracks can help make a tedious drive more enjoyable.

[mister-white]

I'm on the Giacchino band wagon, actually I've been there for 5 years in a couple of weeks, about half way through watching The Incredibles for the first time in the fall of 2004. Always been a fan of his, the guy can't go wrong, even when the movie he's scoring is terrible (see Land of the Lost), his score is in a completely other league.

[MattofSteel]

You're getting unnecessary defensive here, I didn't mean to cause any offence. Don't what I say personally.

Likewise, my defensiveness wasn't meant to be abrasive - I just have a strong opinion about how good of a job I think Arnold has done. I interpreted and likewise intended nothing personal.

You're just equivocal padding.

**** it. If you want to resort petty ad hominem attacks twisting my words then so be it. You think I was attacking your religion for Christ's sake. I'm not asking you to appear in court before a defence on behalf of Arnold.

That was intended in a far more sarcastic and jestful tone than the internet allows. Perhaps my own fault for not including some sort of winky-face.

I still think there are better choices out there, at least for a one-only try out experiment, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and maybe we might even miss Arnold. Who knows?

I agree. Who knows? All I have is the fear that, yes, we WILL suddenly miss Arnold if he isn't at the helm. He's delivered the complete package for me every time - memorable tracks, exciting action, grand "Bond arrival" moments that harken back to Barry's classics. I just think it takes a remarkable amount of skill to be inventive and yet familiar at the same time. It's why most franchises don't make it past the 3rd film, and Bond is still going. I think David's work very much imbues that same spirit.

I think part of the unfairness that tends to lead to my defensiveness comes with the fact that his work isn't compartmentalized the way it should be. His Craig scores really belong in a separate class. The Brosnan scores, while all bombastic, eventful, and varied (perhaps except TWINE, Arnold's poorest even in my book, but that goes hand in hand with the film) have obvious detractions.

CR was, in my mind, the closest thing to a Barry score composed by anyone other than Barry. Arnold completely takes away the "techno support" some suggest he leans on and, in my mind, acquitted himself of all the criticisms most frequently levelled at his work. We had compelling thematic material, a terrific base in rhythm for the action, and some brilliant use of the Bond theme. The conception of 'You Know My Name' and how, in Arnold's own words, its "DNA" is meant to integrate and mature with Barry's classic theme, was nothing short of genius in my book.

And then you've got QOS, which is easily his most diverse, mature, developed, and "un-Arnold" score to date. It acquits him of a second criticism - the suggestion his Bond scores are interchangeable. QOS has a DISTINCT regional feel to it almost universally, while still providing fans with those few 'hits' we need to keep us coming back. It married that classic Barry approach to a contemporary (and yes, techno-involved) execution, but never to the extent that the beeps and whistles overpowered the orchestra or the mood. Easily Arnold's best technical and theoretical score to date.

That's how I see it. It's like the minor criticisms are multiplied simply because he's not John Barry. A synthesized cymbal-tapping doesn't instantly ruin a track.

[00Twelve]

I've liked some of Arnold's work, the majority of it being on the CR & QOS scores. "Vesper," "Night At The Opera," "Inside Man," and Arnold's rendition of the Bond theme in "The Name's Bond...James Bond" are among my favorite non-Barry tracks in the series.

The only reason I would specifically want Arnold back is for the lovely Quantum motif. Other than that, I'm perfectly ready to hear another composer's take. Always optimistic, though, that if Arnold does return, he'll go another step further towards being a more eclectic and mature composer. His last two Bond scores were certainly strides in that direction after the Broz era.

Que sera, sera. Not really thinking much about the Bond 23 composer right now and won't until the announcement is made.

[Harmsway]

Arnold completely takes away the "techno support" some suggest he leans on

Well, not entirely. It still appears in CASINO ROYALE from time to time, though not as obtrusively. For what it's worth, though, I have no problem with his use of "techno" in CASINO ROYALE. Or QUANTUM OF SOLACE, for that matter.

We had compelling thematic material

We did. But it was also, by and large, underused, or at least, used in a forgettable fashion.

a terrific base in rhythm for the action

Maybe, but aside from "African Rundown" (which I've argued may be the single best non-Barry cue in the franchise), the action cues from CASINO ROYALE are wholly forgettable, and as poorly structured and cacophonous as his cues from the Brosnan films. Sometimes more so. Unlike Barry, Arnold has never really learned how to successfully integrate a clear thematic line throughout his action cues.

And then you've got QOS, which is easily his most diverse, mature, developed, and "un-Arnold" score to date.

Perhaps so. It's not the score I expected from him, by any stretch. But even so, most of the score is pretty forgettable (excluding high points like "Night at the Opera").

[Loomis]

If Arnold doesn't return, I doubt it'll be because Eon plans to replace him with someone more exciting (composers of the stature of Philip Glass, Joe Hisaishi and Ryuichi Sakamoto), so if only on that basis alone I'm happy for Arnold to stay.

[plankattack]

I don't disagree with those who point out Arnold's weaknesses, especially the generic nature of too many of his action sequences. But I do want to offer, if not a defense, then a talking point when it comes to the direct comparison with the only other multiple scorer, Barry.

Arnold has been hemmed in by the beast that the films have become. I don't think it's by accident that his better scores have been his last two. CR the film was structured more like an older Bond film, in that there were more moments when Bond was going about the business of spying; the universally loved Night at the Opera in QoS(maybe universally loved because it is Barry-pastiche in mood and rhythym) is an example of this. It's similar to the safecracking in OHMSS, or Bond "mountaineering outside the Whyte House" in DAF.

Now bear with me - some of Barry's best moments, in YOLT or OHMSS accompanied the more low-key visuals of Bond spying about. By the time Arnold has arrived (TND being the worst offender) the films were very much smash-bang-wallop. Arnold is composing for either establishing shots or action sequences and not too much else in between. TND plays out at great pace and so the soundtrack has to follow suit. Anything of mood isn't allowed to develop because the visuals on-screen are all at pace. DAD, especially the final hour, plays at breakneck speed, the only breaths taken for exposition, which hems in the composer, regardless of who he is. Other than cutting through the ice with the laser beam, it's all run-point-shoot (or is that Serra.... )

CR, similar to a 60s Bond-film in pace, allowed Arnold the room to "move about" a bit, and consequently it is as a whole his best score. But in the previous three efforts, I put forth the composer's job was to fill in the gaps between gunshots and explosions.

QoS as a film ebbs and flows a bit more, and so Arnold can again have room to expand, which is why I feel many of his quick cues (like Barry's) are some of the best bits.

My only point is that in Arnold's defense, his score is to some extent, a slave to what's up onscreen. I'm not convinced that Barry, or anyone else for that matter, could've done much when trying to accompany the slam-bam bang bang pacing of TND. It's loud and at speed because that's all there is to accompany.

[DAN LIGHTER]

I would be more than happy for him to do more. I cant get enough of the CR soundtrack. It was him who did it right?

[double o ego]

Yes. I thought his work on Quantum of Solace was his best yet.

Same here. He went from improving with each film to 'right up there with Barry' with Quantum of Solace.

Eh? I wouldn't go that far.

[The Shark]

My only point is that in Arnold's defense, his score is to some extent, a slave to what's up onscreen. I'm not convinced that Barry, or anyone else for that matter, could've done much when trying to accompany the slam-bam bang bang pacing of TND. It's loud and at speed because that's all there is to accompany.

I think he could quite easily, if he was well paid and had a good working relationship with those around him. The key difference between him and Arnold, in my opinion is that Barry is of the old school variety. The power and success of his scores, aren't dependent at all on the quality of the film, since he was never (like Arnold) a frame-for-frame, computer orientated, gadget laden composer. He sat down with his piano and manuscript paper, and wrote scores for the scenes, under the basic parameters such as the length of the scene and mood. This allowed for him, greater over all focus on the structure (like any manual composer), like a painting, as opposed to the fragmentary nature of digitally composing.

Even arguably week films in the franchise - particularly MR and DAF, still had very strong scores, among some of his best. The quality of the film had little effect on the evocativeness, interestingness, and re-listenability of each score, compared to Arnold.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

DAF is a sheer pleasure to listen to, unlike the Arnold's scores which need to the the context of the film in order stop you from falling asleep.

That's how I personally feel about Arnold's work. As good as it is, I can't listen to it without a film, whereas anything done by Barry is music to my ears!
I also agree in particular with Turn's post.


With any thread on Bond music I'm mindful what MGW said at a lecture given at the National Media Museum about studio involvement with Bond title songs. I wouldn't mind betting there are lots of people who now have their opinion (and maybe input) about what the Bond sound should be, and I don't think that was the case in Barry's time. I think for the most part he just has Broccoli and Saltzman and the director to deal with. This makes me wonder if there would be the massive difference musically that some of us would like to see, if a new composer was bought in.

I'm pretty sure I read something about the post production of QoS and Arnold starting work earlier on the film than usual, which was something that Forster wanted. If this is true, then its logical to suggest that it is perhaps his best work because he had more time than usual.

[Mr_Wint]

I wouldn't mind betting there are lots of people who now have their opinion (and maybe input) about what the Bond sound should be, and I don't think that was the case in Barry's time. I think for the most part he just has Broccoli and Saltzman and the director to deal with.

Maybe one Saltzman was enough to make life a hell back then.

[Sir Hilly 007]

Here are a few suggestions - Howard Shore, Thomas Newman, David Newman, Alexandre Desplat (this is an interesting one), Elliot Goldenthaal and James Horner.

Anyone got any others?

i really like the idea of howard shore taking the reigns!! james horner is a great idea as well. i also like hanz simmer, james newton howard, and john powell

Edited by Sir Hilly 007, 07 November 2009 - 05:24 AM.

[pbisjb007]

I think Arnold should be the composer again but I would really like to hear the Bond theme played out in the next one. CR lead up to the theme, which I thought worked really well and QoS had the theme very subtly. Craig is now well recognized as Bond and he should be given the music to show that, much like Arnold did for Brosnan in TND.

[Gabriel]

Like Brosnan's era, Arnold's music seems safe. Certainly, nothing he's written has excited me since TND. A bit of a one-hit wonder for me, I'm afraid.

Not to be mean to him, but I'd like to hear someone else taking a stab at the music for the films.

[O.H.M.S.S.]

I would not be extremely happy if David Arnold continues as the composer of the Bond films. He did some good work on the Craig films, but once you return to the more extravagant Bond film, he will be there throwing the James Bond Theme (techno remix) in whenever he is out of inspiration and that's pratically every action scene. Bring someone new, take some risks, Arnold was good, but let it go, he's not John Barry.

[General G.]

I wouldn't mind a change of composer for B23, but neither would I be disappointed by Arnold's return. He's gotten steadily better, IMO, with the two Craig films being the best of his tenure to date. (The Casino Royale score is terrific.)

[A Kristatos]

My only point is that in Arnold's defense, his score is to some extent, a slave to what's up onscreen. I'm not convinced that Barry, or anyone else for that matter, could've done much when trying to accompany the slam-bam bang bang pacing of TND. It's loud and at speed because that's all there is to accompany.

I think he could quite easily, if he was well paid and had a good working relationship with those around him. The key difference between him and Arnold, in my opinion is that Barry is of the old school variety. The power and success of his scores, aren't dependent at all on the quality of the film, since he was never (like Arnold) a frame-for-frame, computer orientated, gadget laden composer. He sat down with his piano and manuscript paper, and wrote scores for the scenes, under the basic parameters such as the length of the scene and mood. This allowed for him, greater over all focus on the structure (like any manual composer), like a painting, as opposed to the fragmentary nature of digitally composing.

Even arguably week films in the franchise - particularly MR and DAF, still had very strong scores, among some of his best. The quality of the film had little effect on the evocativeness, interestingness, and re-listenability of each score, compared to Arnold.

Excellent post Shark! You nailed Arnold's biggest problem and that is him mimicking every action scene on screen within his score. Barry wrote the score for each scene without actually even seeing the scene, and therefore his scores were imaginative and original.

Now when Arnold was given that same directive from Forster for his QOS soundtrack, his action scenes were more distinctive and actually more melodic. The recurring action theme he came up with for QOS (along with Greene's theme amongst others) was one of the most memorable Bond/action themes since OHMSS! It goes to show that putting Arnold on a "short leash" works to his benefit. If he can base his Bond 23 soundtrack (assuming he's coming back) on his prior two Craig soundtracks, I think he would be great. If however he bases Bond 23 on his Brosnan work, than bringing in someone else would be better.

I'm not sold on Michael Giacchino though. He did a fine job on "The Incredibles", but if a potential MG Bond 23 soundtrack sounds anything like his "Mission Impossible 3" soundtrack action queues, forget it! He's not much better than pre-Craig Arnold in that respect.

[sharpshooter]

Yes. I thought his work on Quantum of Solace was his best yet.

I think his Casino Royale score is better, but I do agree the follow up is good. I'm hoping for an expanded version, but I won't hold my breath. Anyway, I hope Arnold returns. He's really stepped things up in the Craig era. I think he deserves the chance to develop his themes further.

[bnz]

I'm always a little torn about David Arnold. The problem is, when i listen to the soundtrack separately, i mostly hear well done music, recurring themes and pretty much everything that a soundtrack should have. However, within the movie, a lot of that goodness suddenly disappears. The themes become forgettable, initially nicely done cues don't fit the screen (e.g., the African Rundown in Casino Royale didn't work at all for me to the pictures, however, incredible music!). I don't know what it is, but the key ingredient that makes the Barry scores memorable is missing from the Arnold scores. And i don't believe that it is a lack of musical talent from Arnold, but i suspect it is how the music is placed and used in the movies. Also, i find it absolutely necessary that the theme from the theme song is also the Leitmotif of the the soundtrack. In any way, these themes from movies like TLD or AVTAK (despite their overall lower ranking among the bond movies and soundtracks) i could hum instantly. I can't do that for any of the Arnold scores (except for TND oddly - love that theme song). Funny enough, i can do that for lot of the Michael Kamen music of LTK despite the fact that there is no proper Leitmotif. For me this is clearly the best non-Barry soundtrack - but i'm pretty sure that i am pretty alone with that opinion. That must be the result of me hearing that soundtrack over and over at an early teen age....

To answer the original question: yes, i think i would like a departure from David Arnold. I think he makes a good job, but something is missing and i'm not sure if we will get it from him. I don't have other suggestions though. I haven't heard an orchestral soundtrack for a long time that really caught my attention. Maybe this is also related to a change methodology in film scoring where cues and themes are created in fact before the composer gets to see the movie and what is left to do is basically to rearrange the score snippets. At least i have seen an interview with Hans Zimmer once where he explained that he is working like this to lower the time pressure. It seems pretty obvious to me that this can't work as well as tayloring a score to a movie. But then again, this may have always been common practice - i don't know.

[SecretAgentFan]

The basic "problem" of Bond scores IMO is this: John Barry set the tone. A 007 film without that typical Barry sound feels wrong or not "Bondian" enough (Legrand´s NSNA, Serra´s GE). Therefore, every composer has tried to emulate the Barry sound - and surely was required to do just that.

Personally, I do enjoy the Arnold scores and with CR and QOS he has proven himself to be a worthy successor to Barry IMO. I could imagine someone else take over. But in the end, whoever it would be, he/she will go for the Barry sound.

[O.H.M.S.S.]

You're right, but I did enjoy the one-time composers (Bacharach, Martin, Hamlisch, Conti, Legrand, Serra; not so fond of Norman and Kamen) because they were so unique and those movies had a special feel to them because of the unusual score. If I hear a piece of music from a Bond movie before TND, I know from which movie it is. But if I hear something of the TND, TWINE or DAD soundtrack I don't know from which of the three it is. Barry's scores might have had the same style, but every movie had a different sound and therefore also a different atmosphere. CR and QOS are better scores, but it's still not top 10 material.

Edited by O.H.M.S.S., 20 November 2009 - 03:33 PM.

[SecretAgentFan]

You're right, but I did enjoy the one-time composers (Bacharach, Martin, Hamlisch, Conti, Legrand, Serra; not so fond of Norman and Kamen) because they were so unique and those movies had a special feel to them because of the unusual score. If I hear a piece of music from a Bond movie before TND, I know from which movie it is. But if I hear something of the TND, TWINE or DAD soundtrack I don't know from which of the three it is. Barry's scores might have had the same style, but every movie had a different sound and therefore also a different atmosphere. CR and QOS are better scores, but it's still not top 10 material.

I agree but IMO this is due to the fact that film scoring, unfortunately, has changed during the last decade. Distinctive styles are becoming rarer and only allowed to composers of a certain status. Newcomers are quickly sucked into the Media Ventures style that producers want. The "old school"-approach of composing melodies gets replaced by more rhythm-oriented wallpapering. Considering that, Arnold is still one of those who try to get in as much melodies as possible.

[Professor Dent]

The one time composers have provided good scores but they are also some of the most dated sounding in the series. While Bond 77 is a personal favorite, Hamlisch's The Spy Who Loved Me score sounds like a product of the 70's. On the other hand, Barry's Moonraker score does not. I think some of Arnold's work like Tomorrow Never Dies, Casino Royale, & Quantum of Solace, will age well. Still a little close in time but Die Another Day strikes me as one that will sound dated - if it doesn't already.

[JADSTERSDAD]

He's done an ample temp job, but besides a couple of good compositions in QOS his music isn't that memorable. As RJJB just said, he lacks the ability to give each movie an individual character. Mix it up a bit, take a few risks, and try someone else!
Like they did for the main title design, switching to MK12 from Kleinman. It was a risk, but it worked (though not as good as Kleinman's, admittedly ). But music is such an important aspect, im sure they'd choose someone worthy.

Um... have you seen Goldeneye lately? A movie virtually ruined by the music.

YES...David Arnold should return. He belongs with the greats in the Bond history and is second only to John Barry musically.

[Tybre]

I really don't understand the hate GoldenEye's score gets. I like it, for the most part. A few tracks, like "Ladies First", are ear-grating, but for the most part I find it rather enjoyable. Certainly it works better as standalone than with the film, but I still think it works well within context of the film. Particularly the PTS music.

[Taro Todoroki]

No. I think his best work is behind him.