139 replies to this topic

[freemo]

Just because a character is of a particular race/religion/gender/whatever, does not mean they are intended to be representative of that entire collective.

Is the film racist? Maybe. Too late to do anything about it now though.

[Safari Suit]

Hmm, I suppose you're right (arf!) the Bond films have moved further left since the end of the cold war, which makes a certain amount of sense. That said, I think it's fair to say a certain level of scepticism about America, especially as a political force, is a trait fairly common among both sides of the spectrum in the UK, so I wouldn't count that as a particularly leftist trait.

The thing about the action genre is that many of the cosmetic elements are somewhat conservative; guns are cool, explosions are awesome, a clearly defined notion of right (what the good guys want) and wrong (what the bad guys want), violence is exciting and the best resolution to most problems as well as a good source of retribution. When action films have aimed for a more leftist message they have often seemed somewhat hypocritical and confused (e.g. Billy Jack, On Deadly Ground). There are exceptions, Robocop comes to mind.

[DR76]

Yes, I know we're talking about LALD, but while we're on the topic of people being offended by stupid things, thats one that comes up regularly and I want it explained to me whats remotely offensive about it.

Sometimes, I get annoyed when certain people accuse others of being "too politically correct" when the latter come across something that they see as offensive. If they are offended by it, they are offended.

And? If someone claims to be offended by something, others who enjoy it have the right to question them about what exactly is so offensive about it. Otherwise its just whining and playing the race card.

The problem is that many of those who WHINE about "political correctness" tend to ASSUME that someone is simply playing the race card, instead of taking the trouble to question why that person is offended by something. And when the latter explains why they are offended, they are still accused of playing the race card.


By the way, when I commented that LALD might be slightly racist, I was not simply talking about how the black characters were portrayed, I was also speaking of the characterizations of white Southern characters like Culpepper and the fact that Bond had been called the "H" word on several occasions.

Edited by DR76, 09 June 2009 - 02:39 PM.

[Judo chop]

LALD is probably the most racist Bond film.

Bond races in a car, and then again in a speedboat for quite a while.

[dee-bee-five]

Culpepper...

Maybe he was treated badly 'cos he shagged Ann Boleyn (allegedly).

On a more serious note, I often find that those who defend political correctness are themselves intolerant.

[Mister Asterix]

By the way, when I commented that LALD might be slightly racist, I was not simply talking about how the black characters were portrayed, I was also speaking of the characterizations of white Southern characters like Culpepper[sic] and the fact that Bond had been called the "H" word on several occasions.

But do racist characters make the movie racist? Is In the Heat of the Night Racist?

[DR76]

By the way, when I commented that LALD might be slightly racist, I was not simply talking about how the black characters were portrayed, I was also speaking of the characterizations of white Southern characters like Culpepper[sic] and the fact that Bond had been called the "H" word on several occasions.

But do racist characters make the movie racist? Is In the Heat of the Night Racist?

IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT questions and confronts the racism shown. Does LALD question the caricatures of both blacks and Southern white Americans? Does it question the fact that Bond is constantly being at the receiving end of racist slurs?

Edited by DR76, 09 June 2009 - 04:06 PM.

[dee-bee-five]

IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT questions and confronts the racism shown. Does LALD question the caricatures of both blacks and Southern white Americans? Does it question the fact that Bond is constantly being at the receiving end of racist slurs?

Well, no of course it doesn't because it's a cartoon. That's not its job. A more pertinent question surely is whether anyone is offended by it (and the mickey-taking is, as you yourself have pointed out, pretty evenly-spread). I would submit that the only people who could possibly be offended by LALD are those who actively go looking for it.

[DR76]

IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT questions and confronts the racism shown. Does LALD question the caricatures of both blacks and Southern white Americans? Does it question the fact that Bond is constantly being at the receiving end of racist slurs?

Well, no of course it doesn't because it's a cartoon. That's not its job. A more pertinent question surely is whether anyone is offended by it (and the mickey-taking is, as you yourself have pointed out, pretty evenly-spread). I would submit that the only people who could possibly be offended by LALD are those who actively go looking for it.

Then why bother having these stupid caricatures of both blacks and Southern whites in the first place? Why bother allowing black characters to call Bond the "H" word?

Why do people go to so much trouble to pretend that racism doesn't really exist anymore or complain about the so-called "political correctness"? I get the feeling that many people would prefer to go back to the days when we can openly call people names or openly behave in a racist manner toward others. Even if they are not willing to admit this.

[dee-bee-five]

Why do people go to so much trouble to pretend that racism doesn't really exist anymore or complain about the so-called "political correctness"? I get the feeling that many people would prefer to go back to the days when we can openly call people names or openly behave in a racist manner toward others. Even if they are not willing to admit this.

And here we have the classic response from those who defend political correctness. If you are against political correctness, they say, it means you want the freedom to be racist, homophobic, whatever. It's like claiming that anyone who opposes identity cards must have something to hide. And, d'you know what, it's tommy rot.

The best black jokes I've heard have been told to me by black friends (yes, I have many, along with a couple of ex-lovers who are now also friends). The best Jewish jokes have been told to me by Jewish friends. And I can assure you that the best (and filthiest) gay jokes have been told to me by my many gay friends. I have made jokes about camp gay men. I've made them about trannies. Does that make me homophobic? Er, no, that would be silly, wouldn't it?, given that I came out decades ago. So do let's all grow up.

[Judo chop]

Why bother allowing black characters to call Bond the "H" word?

Because that’s what they did in early 70’s Harlem?

Why do people go to so much trouble to pretend that racism doesn't really exist anymore or complain about the so-called "political correctness"?

I don’t pretend it doesn’t exist. But being not a racist, and actually finding the position to be one of the most unintelligible defects of humanity, I find the topic to be colossally boring.

I suppose there are people out there who think that the square root of 2 is 1. They are wrong, and there’s not much more to say about it than that. I’d consider a discussion about the matter to be a tiresome and pointless exercise. Same goes for discussing racists and their views.

Enforcing political correctness is not the way to fight racism. Not being racist is the way to fight racism. We should all do what we can in the fight against racism.

[Mister Asterix]

Then why bother having these stupid caricatures of both blacks and Southern whites in the first place? Why bother allowing black characters to call Bond the "H" word?

From memory, it seems every racist character in the film is either a bad guy or a buffoon (read Sheriff Pepper) therefore the film is showing racism in a negative light in a popular media without preaching it as films like In the Heat of the Night do. I’m not saying there is anything at all wrong with the films that preach against racism, but that may not reach some people like a Bond film would.

[dee-bee-five]

Why bother allowing black characters to call Bond the "H" word?

Because that’s what they did in early 70’s Harlem?

Why do people go to so much trouble to pretend that racism doesn't really exist anymore or complain about the so-called "political correctness"?

I don’t pretend it doesn’t exist. But being not a racist, and actually finding the position to be one of the most unintelligible defects of humanity, I find the topic to be colossally boring.

I suppose there are people out there who think that the square root of 2 is 1. They are wrong, and there’s not much more to say about it than that. I’d consider a discussion about the matter to be a tiresome and pointless exercise. Same goes for discussing racists and their views.

Enforcing political correctness is not the way to fight racism. Not being racist is the way to fight racism. We should all do what we can in the fight against racism.

Amen to that.

And just what is politically correct? The sands are shifting all the time. Take the word "queer". Is that offensive? Thirty years ago it was an insult. Then it became politically incorrect. Oh, but hang on. We "queers" have now adopted it as a badge of honour. There's a gay bar in Manchester which glories in the name "Queer". Russell T. Davies' groundbreaking gay series in 1999 (later adapted for US TV) was called "Queer as Folk"...

(And, please, before anyone comes on here and says it's okay if gays use the word about themselves, but it's not okay for other people to use it... just don't. It's a spurious argument at best).

[byline]

(And, please, before anyone comes on here and says it's okay if gays use the word about themselves, but it's not okay for other people to use it... just don't. It's a spurious argument at best).

But would you agree that was the case until gays took it on as a badge of honor and began using it themselves? In other words, when people chose to use it as an epithet, it really wasn't OK with homosexuals who were targeted with it. But then, once they expanded the meaning for themselves, then it did become OK, regardless of who used the term?

I agree with you on the whole "PC shifting sands" aspect. But I think what's important is trying to understand the impact that words have from someone else's point of view. For me, that's not PC; that's just trying to understand something that I may not have fully comprehended previously.

Edited by byline, 09 June 2009 - 08:33 PM.

[Sigma7]

LALD is not racist, although i took offence to the word "honkey" and didnt watch it for 10 years

[dee-bee-five]

(And, please, before anyone comes on here and says it's okay if gays use the word about themselves, but it's not okay for other people to use it... just don't. It's a spurious argument at best).

But would you agree that was the case until gays took it on as a badge of honor and began using it themselves? In other words, when people chose to use it as an epithet, it really wasn't OK with homosexuals who were targeted with it. But then, once they expanded the meaning for themselves, then it did become OK, regardless of who used the term?

I agree with you on the whole "PC shifting sands" aspect. But I think what's important is trying to understand the impact that words have from someone else's point of view. For me, that's not PC; that's just trying to understand something that I may not have fully comprehended previously.

I'm afraid I still find the argument in your first paragraph to be spurious. We seem to be in an age when everyone wants to be in an oppressed minority. It's all "me too!" and, personally, I find it tiresome. There are many occasions when I could have cried "homophobia!" if I'd wanted to. Others do. But the truth is I have never once encountered homophobia.

You second paragraph makes an important point. Those who uphold political correctness always argue that anyone who questions it wants the freedom to insult and deride other people because of their race, colour, religion, sexuality, whatever. But, to my mind, this is nonsense. The bigot will not be dissauded from his/her hatred because the Establishment says it's wrong; if anything, their views are more likely to become entrenched because of it. Incidentally, I first became aware of political correctness in the UK, believe it or not, when the "wimmin" (sic) started scrawling "sexist " on posters for Octopussy. It was stupid then and it's stupid now.

[O.H.M.S.S.]

Live and Let Die is not racist. If it is, Tomorrow Never Dies is racist against Germans, From Russia with Love against Bulgarians and so on. People are tended to be easily insulted these days.

[Panavision]

I don't find it offensive, Matt_13.
Here's the story: I was watching it with a friend and he claimed that it was racist. I don't find it offensive and I tried to find out where it was. I honestly don't know how this movie is offensive.

The book certainly shows how ignorant Fleming was. No one talked like in the 50s. Tom Mankiewicz admitted the same.

[Ambler]

The only "racist" part of the movie is when Sheriff Pepper says something about a "swamp full of 'Black Russians.'"

I always assumed that was a humourous reference to the so-called 'white russians' who fought against the Bolsheviks in the Russian Civil War.

Edited by Ambler, 18 June 2009 - 05:00 PM.

[Mister Asterix]

The only "racist" part of the movie is when Sheriff Pepper says something about a "swamp full of 'Black Russians.'"

I always assumed that was a humourous reference to the so-called 'white russians' who fought against the Bolsheviks in the Russian Civil War.

I always assumed it was a reference to the drink. Even so I must ask again, does a racist comment made by a character who is portrayed in a negative light racist? I don’t think so. Does the ‘Black Russian’ comment by the bartender in 48 Hrs make that film racist? Again, I don’t think so.

[Sark2.0]

I remember hearing a story that when Moore was in the south filming LALD, some "ladies" got wind that Bond would be shagging a black chick in the upcoming film. They took great offense to this and told Moore's wife they wouldn't see the film if that was the case. Which only gave Rog more of a motivation to include it. If that's the case, I think it shows how the film LALD was not racist at all. I can't remember where I heard that story, so I'm not 100% on its veracity.

[Ambler]

Wasn't the film banned or cut in South Africa because of said shagging scene?

[Zorin Industries]

Wasn't the film banned or cut in South Africa because of said shagging scene?

Not sure. But I know it brought the house down in the Deep South of America....literally - they burnt it down.

[B. Brown]

I'm not really sure how a film featuring black villains could be considered "racist", anyhow.

A villain could be of any race. It was good to see the producers mix it up a bit and use a black villain.

People just like coming up with this crap, and shouting "racism!" just for the hell of it. I was told that some considered "Casino Royale" to be racist because it featured Bond in Madagascar, and it didn't present a fair vision of the country.

As for Fleming's "Live and Let Die", I don't think it was a racist novel either. It was written in the 50's, when the n-word, or similar words, were more common, and a bit more accepted than they are now. Plus, Ian Fleming hardly seemed like an ignorant bigot - wasn't he friends with Noel Coward? And wasn't Noel Coward a homosexual?

[Mister Asterix]

As for Fleming's "Live and Let Die", I don't think it was a racist novel either. It was written in the 50's, when the n-word, or similar words, were more common, and a bit more accepted than they are now.

Yeah, I was watching the film The Dam Busters (1955) the other day and I shocked at the name of Wing Commander Gibson’s black Labrador Retriever.

[Ambler]

Ian Fleming hardly seemed like an ignorant bigot - wasn't he friends with Noel Coward? And wasn't Noel Coward a homosexual?

Well, you don't have to look very hard to find rumours that Fleming was himself bisexual - the suppressed letters between him and Bryce are usually held up as evidence, though to my knowledge no one has actually seen copies. But I agree, a lot of the stuff about Fleming's alleged bigotry is BS. For instance, it's likely that Fleming had an affair with Krystyna Skarbek (the basis for Vesper Lynd) and she was Jewish. LIberals who rant on about Fleming's supposed anti-semitism are either in ignorance of, or are willfully ignoring, that fact.

[Sark2.0]

I think the bottom line with Fleming is that he was fairly liberal by the standards of his time on these matters. If he lived today I don't think it would take him too long to acclimate to modern society. I don't think he'd be known as "that crazy old racist".

[Zorin Industries]

I'm not really sure how a film featuring black villains could be considered "racist", anyhow.

A villain could be of any race. It was good to see the producers mix it up a bit and use a black villain.

People just like coming up with this crap, and shouting "racism!" just for the hell of it. I was told that some considered "Casino Royale" to be racist because it featured Bond in Madagascar, and it didn't present a fair vision of the country.

As for Fleming's "Live and Let Die", I don't think it was a racist novel either. It was written in the 50's, when the n-word, or similar words, were more common, and a bit more accepted than they are now. Plus, Ian Fleming hardly seemed like an ignorant bigot - wasn't he friends with Noel Coward? And wasn't Noel Coward a homosexual?

I'm not saying (nor caring) if Fleming was a bigot (I would imagine he was not at all), but surely being friends with Noel Coward who was a gayer doesn't denote anything other than they were friends and neighbours. Also, most people's sexuality doesn't have any bearing on their relationships with friends.

[Ambler]

most people's sexuality doesn't have any bearing on their relationships with friends.

If one is a homophobe it surely does. Same with race and colour I would imagine.

[Zorin Industries]

most people's sexuality doesn't have any bearing on their relationships with friends.

If one is a homophobe it surely does. Same with race and colour I would imagine.

But then surely those people wouldn't be friends with each other?