139 replies to this topic

[ACE]

Octopussy having Roger Moore "white up" makes it viciously racist. Or clownist.

"That should keep him pork pies for a month..."
LOL. When I think of the "-ist" moments in Octopussy, this is the first thing I think of.

[zencat]

The film certainly depicts the African American community through a very specific stereotypical prism, which in itself can be considered racist. But at least it was the new prism of a "Blacksploition" films (Gloria Hendy calls them "Black Renaissance films"), which at the time was seen as empowering by turning old stereotypes (as found in the book) on their heads. Tom Mankowitz was a very hip young guy who I think was very aware to how he was depicting the community, while still understanding he was writing a James Bond movie. They were bad guys, but they were badass and smart badguys. I've always seen it as "new Black 70s cinema" meets James Bond (the ultimate 60s cinema), and I think the mix is pretty darn fun. But, yeah, crime, drugs, pimp mobiles, voodoo...30 years on and those come off as pretty derogatory, so it's a little uncomfortable in places. But it's a product of it's time and, understanding when it was made, not at all offensive to anyone who loves Bond or action cinema of the 70s.

[Stephen Spotswood]

I found this picture of Ian Fleming in 1929:

http://www.007magazi...eming_totd1.jpg

Bond like?

[clinkeroo]

No, is the simple answer. Nor was the book. Not when they were made/written. To our eyes, sure, there are some parts of both that grate. Just as the depiction of gay characters in the books and early films can jar.

But this is the problem with political correctness. It is absurd to try and impose prevailing social mores on films and books produced fifty years ago. There was some nonsense a while back about Gone With The Wind being racist. But I think most intelligent people saw it for the nonsense it was.

Half the time, I think we get these academics trotting to television studios to denounce this or that piece of popular culture as racist or sexist just to grab their 15 minutes of fame. They're tiresome, but they can be ignored.

Spot on. My thoughts exactly.

[00Twelve]

It is absurd to try and impose prevailing social mores on films and books produced fifty years ago.

That about sums up my sentiment on this. In short, no.

[DamnCoffee]

"Can't miss him, it's like following a cue-ball!"

[Dekard77]

Not all ! I think it's a film with more attention to exploitative genre therefore we have to look at it like that. Certain comments made by the black community in that movie are all in done in good faith or to show some humour nothing more. Roger fits well into that movie for that reason. The sheriff scenes are funny as hell. Didn't think DAD was racist at all. Bond films usually have bad guys and good guys thats how I see it. I want it to be kept like that .QOS dealt with a Military leader who robbed,killed and sexually abused women etc.... but that was his character.
Nothing to do with his nationality.
Also I feel that while today networks and movie studios are more open and trying to be less racist end up making the same mistakes they shouldn't. I remember in '90's there were certain movies and tones implying that white men can't dance or do things that are daring. Of course it's said with some level of humour but after a while it doesn't seem too funny. Even when watched Fast and Furious movies there are moments of banter which I feel is awkward. But what really annoys me is how the media plays the race/sex card when they want to black list an actor. Mel Gibson and that dude from Gary's Anatomy.
I think back in the day people were more racist than today but when they went to see a movie it was taken in good humour. That's all to it I guess.

[007½]

LALD isn't racist at all. I think that PC is taken too far all too often. This idea is an example of that.

[danslittlefinger]

It is absurd to try and impose prevailing social mores on films and books produced fifty years ago.

That about sums up my sentiment on this. In short, no.

Seconded. That was then, this is now so that should keep me in curries for awhile.

[Mister Asterix]

In fact, there are real life criminal organisations that are all, or nearly all, one ethnic group. (I know, Shock! Horror!) So wouldn’t not including this group because they are Black be racist?

I wonder if this film would be viewed in a better light by the PC masses had they went ahead with the casting of Diana Ross as Solitaire, and had Rosie Carver’s character be white?

Perhaps that’s how this film is racist in that it wouldn’t portray Bond finishing the film with a romance with a black leading lady.

[David_M]

From what I remember reading of Yaphet Kotto at that time, he wouldn't have willingly participated in a racist film, so I'll trust his judgement.

Still, it's fair to say I cannot imagine a major studio making a film like LALD today, just as I can't imagine a modern-day sitcom as daring as "All in the Family." We've come a long way in 30+ years, but I'm not always convinced it's in the right direction.

[jamie00007]

LALD is far from racist, its positively progressive for the times. How many other mainstream movies at that time had a white hero and a black love interest? Im sure that was more than enough to raise some eyebrows in mainstream 1970s audiences.

[baerrtt]

From what I remember reading of Yaphet Kotto at that time, he wouldn't have willingly participated in a racist film, so I'll trust his judgement.

Still, it's fair to say I cannot imagine a major studio making a film like LALD today, just as I can't imagine a modern-day sitcom as daring as "All in the Family." We've come a long way in 30+ years, but I'm not always convinced it's in the right direction.

I think the reasons for 'PC' in movies/television were sound in that the industry was being accused of making stuff that contributed and added to the woes and stereotypes of various ethnic minorities in the 70s (particularly in the UK). "Till Death Do Us Apart" (which inspired "All In The Family") for example may have been made with the mission statement of making bigots look foolish but It's creator, Johnny Speight, and leading man (Warren Mitchell) always spoke with despair that far, far too many people on the street congratulated them on 'telling it like it is' and thus continued to miss the point.

LALD isn't racist but the caution shown towards such films/tv shows today is the fact that audiences which held certain prejudices appropriated the work to fit their own dubious viewpoints.

Then again the hasn't the whole Bond franchise been accused of racism and sexism?

Edited by baerrtt, 02 June 2009 - 01:56 PM.

[Stephen Spotswood]

Is the pope jewish?

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

Not as racist as the novel.

[Eddie Burns]

Lol!

Assuming most of the posters on the CBn forums are Caucasian, then I hardly doubt any of you are authorities when it comes to racism. Unless you've experienced a similar type of discrimination (individually, in regards to your color) to that of other minorities, then I don't think anyone is in a position to say whether something is racist or not. Especially the type of racism that is far subtler than the one found in Hitler's Germany or Apartheid S.Africa.

Saying that, Yaphet Kotto did complain as to how he was treated by his peers during the production, and really didn't have anything nice to say about Roger Moore. He also disapproved of how the rest of the black cast was shoved aside during the promotion of the movie.

[DR76]

It might be . . . a little. Between some of the African-American stereotypes, the white Southern American stereotypes and Bond being called the "H" word . . . perhaps.

[David_M]

Assuming most of the posters on the CBn forums are Caucasian, then I hardly doubt any of you are authorities when it comes to racism.

A black viewer is certainly qualified to judge whether the film is offensive to them personally, but even if it is, does that make it "racist"? Indeed, is anything that anyone says necessarily "racist" because someone else takes offense, regardless of the intent of the speaker? This is the kind of PC BS that's stifled real dialog in the US (and elsewhere, I'm sure) for years.

To me, something is "racist" if it promotes one race over another, or perpetuates negative or inflammatory propaganda about a race, with deliberate intent. I don't see any such agenda in LALD. The worst you can say about it is that it tries to cash in on the blaxploitation craze of the moment for a quick buck, and if you view that craze as films made by blacks, about blacks, for blacks, then I suppose there's a certain offensiveness to "Whitey" horning in on the act. But I don't for a moment think EON meant any offense, and indeed they took some heat -- and financial risk -- making a film with prominent black characters...and most daringly for the time, a black lover for 007...despite the possibility that whole swaths of the US might refuse to screen it.

By the way, when you say you "hardly doubt that we're qualified," that means you don't doubt it. So thanks for the vote of confidence.

[Mister Asterix]

Lol!

Assuming most of the posters on the CBn forums are Caucasian, then I hardly doubt any of you are authorities when it comes to racism.

That seems a racist statement. (Not calling you racist, but you might want to re-examine that statement.) As a child I was assaulted merely because of the colour of my skin, but you seem to not know anything about whites being victims of racism.

Racism affects everyone.

[Jim]

Lol!

Assuming most of the posters on the CBn forums are Caucasian, then I hardly doubt any of you are authorities when it comes to racism. Unless you've experienced a similar type of discrimination (individually, in regards to your color) to that of other minorities, then I don't think anyone is in a position to say whether something is racist or not.

Try me.

And I agree with Mister Asterix. Everyone has a race, therefore everyone is potentially subject to the ism.

[coco1997]

Lol!

Assuming most of the posters on the CBn forums are Caucasian, then I hardly doubt any of you are authorities when it comes to racism. Unless you've experienced a similar type of discrimination (individually, in regards to your color) to that of other minorities, then I don't think anyone is in a position to say whether something is racist or not. Especially the type of racism that is far subtler than the one found in Hitler's Germany or Apartheid S.Africa.

Are you ing kidding me?

[Zorin Industries]

Lol!

Assuming most of the posters on the CBn forums are Caucasian, then I hardly doubt any of you are authorities when it comes to racism. Unless you've experienced a similar type of discrimination (individually, in regards to your color) to that of other minorities, then I don't think anyone is in a position to say whether something is racist or not. Especially the type of racism that is far subtler than the one found in Hitler's Germany or Apartheid S.Africa.

Saying that, Yaphet Kotto did complain as to how he was treated by his peers during the production, and really didn't have anything nice to say about Roger Moore. He also disapproved of how the rest of the black cast was shoved aside during the promotion of the movie.

Being an "authority" on "racism" is not confined solely to anyone who is ethnically different. That is sort of missing the point. And yes - a lot of people are minorities of one sort or another.

Actually, your comments that claim only people of colour can decide whether something is racist or not is so loaded with irony that it is not even worth defending here. Needless to say - it is a naive comment.

[Sniperscope]

There's only one "race" I'm part of folks (if I want to use such a term) - the HUMAN RACE.
Half the problem with everyone is the outmoded, antediluvian notion of separate "races" that still seems to persist in common discourse.
I don't associate myself with any ideology based on ethnicity or something as bogus and intellectually limiting as different "races."
It strikes me that any notion of separate "races" is potentially racist... "Race" tends to identify (and limit) individuals based upon often derogatory stereotypes based on skin colour, their so-called "culture" and supposed or apprehended behaviour.
Have we moved out of the 19th century yet?

Edited by Sniperscope, 05 June 2009 - 10:39 AM.

[jamie00007]

People also use the word race (maybe incorrectly) in regards to culture, not just skin color. And everyone may be equal, but there are vast differences between cultures. And why is that a negative thing? Shouldnt the differences be celebrated for their uniqueness and diversity? And as such, why shouldnt the differences also be open to humour?

I see nothing remotely offensive or racist about something like the "curry" remark in Octopussy. Now if the same remark was said to an englishman in London who had an Indian background, yes I could see how it could be racist, its stereotyping. But the line was said to an Indian in India. Curry is Indias national dish. Its one of Indias biggest exports. Every Indian restaurant specıalıses in curry. The line is nothing more than a gentle dig at Indian culture, it is no more racist than if someone made a joke about the english liking to drink tea. Would you get offended at that? I know I wouldnt.

I really think people are getting a little precious about such things.

Edited by jamie00007, 08 June 2009 - 08:52 AM.

[DR76]

People also use the word race (maybe incorrectly) in regards to culture, not just skin color. And everyone may be equal, but there are vast differences between cultures. And why is that a negative thing? Shouldnt the differences be celebrated for their uniqueness and diversity? And as such, why shouldnt the differences also be open to humour?

I see nothing remotely offensive or racist about something like the "curry" remark in Octopussy. Now if the same remark was said to an englishman in London who had an Indian background, yes I could see how it could be racist, its stereotyping. But the line was said to an Indian in India. Curry is Indias national dish. Its one of Indias biggest exports. Every Indian restaurant specıalıses in curry. The line is nothing more than a gentle dig at Indian culture, it is no more racist than if someone made a joke about the english liking to drink tea. Would you get offended at that? I know I wouldnt.

I really think people are getting a little precious about such things.

They were not talking about the use of the word "curry" in OCTOPUSSY. This is supposed to be about LIVE AND LET DIE. Now if an individual of a certain cultural group, religious group, skin color or even gender found something offensive in the movie - regardless of their background - then he or she is going to view it as offensive. Sometimes, I get annoyed when certain people accuse others of being "too politically correct" when the latter come across something that they see as offensive. If they are offended by it, they are offended.

Edited by DR76, 08 June 2009 - 06:05 PM.

[jamie00007]

Yes, I know we're talking about LALD, but while we're on the topic of people being offended by stupid things, thats one that comes up regularly and I want it explained to me whats remotely offensive about it.

Sometimes, I get annoyed when certain people accuse others of being "too politically correct" when the latter come across something that they see as offensive. If they are offended by it, they are offended.

And? If someone claims to be offended by something, others who enjoy it have the right to question them about what exactly is so offensive about it. Otherwise its just whining and playing the race card.

Edited by jamie00007, 08 June 2009 - 09:29 PM.

[ACE]

I guess some people on this thread think "The Office" is a documentary...

[right idea, wrong pussy]

I think (for me at least) that a far more interesting question with regards to LALD (and Bond movies in general) is less race or sexism or what not than the political slant of the film. I think Tom Mankiewicz may have been right and either Rosie should have been white or Solitaire black, but by and large, the fact that LALD is shown constantly on TV without TV stations being boycotted says a bit. The fact that the black cast members of the film still talk fondly about their experiences on the film is significant too. I think the racial issue is a function of the blacksploitation territory.

To get back to my politics comment, I think it's interesting how right-wing in a sort of Dirty Harry way LALD is. It seems to have no trouble having the CIA as good guys, blacks as bad guys and third world leaders as tin pot dictators railing in a pseudo-Marxist way against the US from the safety of the UN.

In fact, the more I think about it, the politics of James Bond would be a fascinating topic. Is he a character of the left or right? Or are some films more right-wing (LALD, OP) and other more left (QOS, GF with its opposition to capitalism)?

[Safari Suit]

The action genre as a whole (at least in the west) generally leans to the right.

[Sniperscope]

The action genre as a whole (at least in the west) generally leans to the right.

Wouldn't be entirely sure about that in regards to Bond though...
When you think about it virtually all of Bond's adversaries in the Brosnan / Craig eras have been right-wing Capitalists (Carver, Elektra, Graves, Greene). Medrano is a fascist and Trevelyan is a gangster that has been allowed to rise specifically because of his betrayal by the powers that be and the fall of the Left. Leiter aside there is also a very negative attitude towards the US, specifically in QoS and DAD...
Not entirely right-wing, for me.

People also use the word race (maybe incorrectly) in regards to culture, not just skin color. And everyone may be equal, but there are vast differences between cultures. And why is that a negative thing? Shouldnt the differences be celebrated for their uniqueness and diversity? And as such, why shouldnt the differences also be open to humour?

I see nothing remotely offensive or racist about something like the "curry" remark in Octopussy. Now if the same remark was said to an englishman in London who had an Indian background, yes I could see how it could be racist, its stereotyping. But the line was said to an Indian in India. Curry is Indias national dish. Its one of Indias biggest exports. Every Indian restaurant specıalıses in curry. The line is nothing more than a gentle dig at Indian culture, it is no more racist than if someone made a joke about the english liking to drink tea. Would you get offended at that? I know I wouldnt.

I really think people are getting a little precious about such things.

They were not talking about the use of the word "curry" in OCTOPUSSY. This is supposed to be about LIVE AND LET DIE. Now if an individual of a certain cultural group, religious group, skin color or even gender found something offensive in the movie - regardless of their background - then he or she is going to view it as offensive. Sometimes, I get annoyed when certain people accuse others of being "too politically correct" when the latter come across something that they see as offensive. If they are offended by it, they are offended.

Complete agreement with you DR76.

Edited by Sniperscope, 09 June 2009 - 08:33 AM.