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How Does Dalton Now Stand With Fleming Purists?


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#91 Harmsway

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 06:55 PM

The impression I had of Bond's physique was wiriness, not heavy musculature, he was built for speed, for the fast assasination, for the chase.

I didn't see him as necessarily wiry (Bond shouldn't be a beanpole, like Brosnan). But I did see him as a slimmer chap without bulging muscles (for this reason, I was happy to see Craig slim down from his CASINO ROYALE physique for QUANTUM OF SOLACE).

Tough looking could refer to everything from the expression on his face, a certain wariness, perhaps casing every room he enters, to even physical posture.

Oh, for sure. But I don't think Roger Moore fits that passage in the slightest, which is why I originally brought up the quote. He might be able to have a cruel expression on his face, but I don't think anyone looking at him is going to start imagining that he was involved in the Mau Mau rebellion, as is suggested in this passage.

I could see Connery, Dalton and Craig giving off such a vibe. Dalton's time in the casino in LICENCE TO KILL is a really great embodiment of the passage. But Lazenby and Brosnan are too much in the playboy vein for me to really see it. But Moore? Moore doesn't hit that target, excellent though he is.

#92 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 07:36 PM

Speaking of which:

http://www.latimes.c...05/39304750.jpg

http://images.amazon...600/bond2-l.jpg

Edited by Stephen Spotswood, 02 January 2009 - 07:52 PM.


#93 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 08:09 PM

By wirey I mean someone with long lean muscles, not pumped. One might think of someone who works with their hands like farmers, ranchers, factory workers; work the requires a lot of endurance, so one's physique never goes to one extreme or another.

#94 Superhobo

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 04:15 AM

Speaking of which:

http://www.latimes.c...05/39304750.jpg

http://images.amazon...600/bond2-l.jpg


Those photos. Regardless of what I think of his performances (they're great), those could not have been worse timed.

#95 jaguar007

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 04:36 AM

I always envisioned Bond to have a similar build to a younger Clint Eastwood (but not as tall)
http://www.hollywood...nt-eastwood.jpg

#96 dee-bee-five

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 01:46 PM

Having grown up on Bond, this new character is just too hard to take seriously.


Having also grown up on Bond - Fleming as well as Eon - I now find it hard to take any of Craig's predecessors seriously. He is Fleming's Bond, for me, pure and simple. But much of that comes through in the subtext of his performance which digs deep into the subtext of the novels. I perfectly understand why those who can't - or prefer not to - work a little to appreciate subtext might struggle to equate Craig's definitive Bond with the source material.

#97 Loomis

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 01:58 PM

Having grown up on Bond, this new character is just too hard to take seriously.


Having also grown up on Bond - Fleming as well as Eon - I now find it hard to take any of Craig's predecessors seriously. He is Fleming's Bond, for me, pure and simple. But much of that comes through in the subtext of his performance which digs deep into the subtext of the novels. I perfectly understand why those who can't - or prefer not to - work a little to appreciate subtext might struggle to equate Craig's definitive Bond with the source material.


Perfectly put, dee-bee-five.

For me, too, Daniel Craig IS Ian Fleming's James Bond 007. He comes closer than any of the others - Connery and Dalton included - to the chap in the novels.

He's also - and by some distance - the greatest actor to have played Bond. And as though that weren't enough, Craig is also the most human and most interesting of all the 007s, and the only one with any real kind of underdog quality (we connect to this character and his adventures on a deeper level than with any of the other guys), and the best-looking Bond of the whole bunch.

Craig's work contains and extends that of all his predecessors, while he's also tied very firmly to Fleming (fnarr).

Listen, I think one of the amazing things about the Bond series is how it's never gotten the casting of its leading man wrong. Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton and Brosnan all did terrific stuff, if you ask me. But I literally cannot believe just how stunningly right Eon got it by casting Craig. It defies belief that they'll ever again be able to find such a perfect fit for the role.

End of gushing love letter. :(

#98 Royal Dalton

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 02:26 PM

Craig Schmaig. :(

#99 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 02:37 PM

Craig is just doing a variation of Connery's basilisk eyed Bond, and reducing the character to one of a comic strip action-figure a'la Doc Savage.

#100 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 04:04 PM

Craig is just doing a variation of Connery's basilisk eyed Bond, and reducing the character to one of a comic strip action-figure a'la Doc Savage.

Bond was a comic strip character. :(

#101 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 06:31 PM

Only after he was a book character. But the books didn't have him to all intents and purposes physically impervious. Even the comic strips that were based on the books, showed a much more complex figure.

#102 Revelator

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 06:46 PM

Having also grown up on Bond - Fleming as well as Eon - I now find it hard to take any of Craig's predecessors seriously.


Craig is certainly a unique case--since he seems to inspire reckess hyperbole from both his champions and detractors. I think he's a fine choice for the role, but my eyes tend to roll when he's either deified or vilified.

He is Fleming's Bond, for me, pure and simple.


This carries the dubious and much-too-convenient assumption that Fleming's Bond was ever pure and simple in the first place--Fleming's version of the character shifted and fluctuated over the years: the Bond of YOLT is a different man from the Bond of CR. "Fleming's Bond" is not a static concept that you can slot an actor into by claiming he's following some mysterious "subtext"--the idea that one actor purely and simply is Fleming's Bond is a generalization. It's more instructive to say that each actor who's played Bond has met certain qualities of the character found in Fleming's novels, but none has ever met all of them--that would be a near-impossibility anyway. Craig matches the cold, indomitable Bond of the early novels, and yet lacks the effortlessly debonair quality that Connery, Moore and Brosnan carried, while Moore often lacked the killing edge of a 00 agent and Connery was perhaps too hedonistic. Lazenby arguably fits Fleming's physical description of the character better than Craig, yet he was perhaps too brash and hearty. Dalton brought to life many of the world-weary qualities of Bond of the later novels but did so with perhaps too heavy a touch, as opposed to Brosnan, who erred toward lightness. All of these actors fit aspects of Bond found throughout the different novels and none could fit all of them. If you merged all of these actors into one you might perhaps have Fleming's Bond, as he was and changed over the course of all the novels and short stories. But no single actor really encapsulates all the aspects of "Fleming's Bond."

He's also - and by some distance - the greatest actor to have played Bond.


More Craig hagiography, and a subjective statement dressed up as an objective one--I don't see much "distance," given how arguable this position is. Connery--one of the greatest living movie stars--arguably has more screen presence than any of the other Bond actors, and this is what counts in movies, though he has also demonstrated how good of an actor he can be in films like The Offence, The Man Who Would be King, and Robin and Marian. Craig has genuine screen presence as well--I wouldn't say as much, but he also has a range as great as Dalton's.

And as though that weren't enough, Craig is also the most human and most interesting of all the 007s


Craig is the most human because he's been written that way, for movies that are determined to mine Bond's character far more than almost any of the previous films.

and the best-looking Bond of the whole bunch.


Again rather arguable. I don't think he's ugly by any means--nor would I class him as the best-looking, given that Connery was every bit of a sex symbol.
Now, before I sign off I just want to make clear that I don't wish to turn this into a "which Bond is better" debate. I simply wish to add balance to the conversation.

#103 Harmsway

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 07:35 PM

For me, too, Daniel Craig IS Ian Fleming's James Bond 007. He comes closer than any of the others - Connery and Dalton included - to the chap in the novels.

He's also - and by some distance - the greatest actor to have played Bond. And as though that weren't enough, Craig is also the most human and most interesting of all the 007s, and the only one with any real kind of underdog quality (we connect to this character and his adventures on a deeper level than with any of the other guys), and the best-looking Bond of the whole bunch.

Craig's work contains and extends that of all his predecessors, while he's also tied very firmly to Fleming (fnarr).

Listen, I think one of the amazing things about the Bond series is how it's never gotten the casting of its leading man wrong. Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton and Brosnan all did terrific stuff, if you ask me. But I literally cannot believe just how stunningly right Eon got it by casting Craig. It defies belief that they'll ever again be able to find such a perfect fit for the role.

End of gushing love letter. :(

:::applauds wildly:::

#104 Safari Suit

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 09:03 PM

He's also - and by some distance - the greatest actor to have played Bond.


I don't think Craig's supperiority to Dalton as an actor can be claimed so frivoulously, and if it can I still don't think it would be by any great distance.

I even have my doubts about being so flippant about Connery's chops, Revelator is putting forward a pretty good argument for them.

#105 Loomis

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 10:56 PM

He's also - and by some distance - the greatest actor to have played Bond.


I don't think Craig's supperiority to Dalton as an actor can be claimed so frivoulously, and if it can I still don't think it would be by any great distance.

I even have my doubts about being so flippant about Connery's chops, Revelator is putting forward a pretty good argument for them.


I'm not making the claim of Craig's superiority frivolously. I totally believe what I'm saying, and I base it on having seen the work of both men (and not merely their Bond work). However, I do concede that I could probably make the effort to put my case for Craig rather better.

You and Revelator both make very good points, but, remember, I'm writing this stuff 'coz I genuinely believe it to be true. Doesn't mean it is true, obviously, but what it does mean is that it's my honestly-held opinion. I'm not Craig's agent or brother or anything, so I have no vested interests here. It's just my genuine, heartfelt response as someone who's been a passionate Bond fan for more than twenty years.

Just my own two cents, though, of course. :(

#106 Royal Dalton

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 11:05 PM

Craig's a good actor. But he ain't that good.

#107 Safari Suit

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 11:14 PM

He's also - and by some distance - the greatest actor to have played Bond.


I don't think Craig's supperiority to Dalton as an actor can be claimed so frivoulously, and if it can I still don't think it would be by any great distance.

I even have my doubts about being so flippant about Connery's chops, Revelator is putting forward a pretty good argument for them.


I'm not making the claim of Craig's superiority frivolously. I totally believe what I'm saying, and I base it on having seen the work of both men (and not merely their Bond work). However, I do concede that I could probably make the effort to put my case for Craig rather better.

You and Revelator both make very good points, but, remember, I'm writing this stuff 'coz I genuinely believe it to be true. Doesn't mean it is true, obviously, but what it does mean is that it's my honestly-held opinion. I'm not Craig's agent or brother or anything, so I have no vested interests here. It's just my genuine, heartfelt response as someone who's been a passionate Bond fan for more than twenty years.

Just my own two cents, though, of course. :(


Fair enough :) I never doubted your sincerity I'm just not 100% covinced I agree I guess.

#108 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 01:38 PM

One of the funniest things I ever seen was in the end of the execrable Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, Sean Connery literally shows up at the end for fleeting moments as King Richard III, and totally stole the movie from Costner and pretty much everyone else (although I was tickled by Rickman.)

Mel Brooks managed to repeat that stunt by having Patrick Stewart as the Lionheart show up at the very end of Robin Hood: Men in Tights.

#109 Safari Suit

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 03:19 PM

Probably wasn't worth making the whole movie so awful just to mirror that bit though.

#110 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 02:07 AM

Personally, I thought Men in Tights more bearable than Prince of Thieves.

Here's another interesting Robin Hood:



I do wonder though with threads on Dr. Who, Sherlock Holmes and these references to Robin Hood why the Bond people don't alternate between titles? Bond could appear every other year, and Who, Holmes and Hood on others.

#111 FlemingIanFleming

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 04:24 PM

Lots of very good insights in this thread. I have to agree with those who feel that Dalton and Craig are equally close to capturing Fleming's Bond, but at different stages of his career.

I would add, however, that the Craig films are, overall, more Flemingesque (particularly CR) than Dalton's. Particularly with TLD, the writers had Dalton's Bond in the middle of a Roger Moore-style movie, and it just didn't fit. LTK's story was a lot closer to Fleming, but still wasn't anywhere near CR, which IMO is the closest the film series has come to putting Fleming faithfully on screen.

#112 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 02:39 PM

From Russia With Love and On Her Majesty's Secret Service were almost page by page adaptions, with slight changes.

I would include Thunderball in that list, but I'm not sure which came first, the book or the movie.

#113 dee-bee-five

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 07:57 AM

He's also - and by some distance - the greatest actor to have played Bond.


I don't think Craig's supperiority to Dalton as an actor can be claimed so frivoulously.


Well, it's all subjective but the evidence suggests to me that Craig is a much better screen actor than Dalton, who never (in any of his films) seems to lose his innate theatricality, much as Olivier never could.

#114 doublenoughtspy

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 12:05 PM

LTK's story was a lot closer to Fleming, but still wasn't anywhere near CR, which IMO is the closest the film series has come to putting Fleming faithfully on screen.


I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.

M is a man, Felix is white.

The game is Baccarat, not poker.

No scenes take place in Montenegro, Miami, or Venice.

Vesper commits suicide away from Bond, not in front of him.

Are there plenty of Fleming elements in CR 2006? Yes.

But the most faithful adaptation? I suggest that you watch FRWL and OHMSS - carefully this time as well :(

#115 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 03:54 PM

LTK's story was a lot closer to Fleming, but still wasn't anywhere near CR, which IMO is the closest the film series has come to putting Fleming faithfully on screen.


I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.

M is a man, Felix is white.

The game is Baccarat, not poker.

No scenes take place in Montenegro, Miami, or Venice.

Vesper commits suicide away from Bond, not in front of him.

Are there plenty of Fleming elements in CR 2006? Yes.

But the most faithful adaptation? I suggest that you watch FRWL and OHMSS - carefully this time as well :(

FRWL, however, features SPECTRE and two completely unneccessary action sequences towards the end, and OHMSS features a mid-course deviation in plotline from the book once Bond and Tracy escape Blofeld's men. :)

I love all three (as well as QOS), but you know those pesky perfectionists... :)

#116 TheSaint

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 10:34 PM

LTK's story was a lot closer to Fleming, but still wasn't anywhere near CR, which IMO is the closest the film series has come to putting Fleming faithfully on screen.


I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.

M is a man, Felix is white.

The game is Baccarat, not poker.

No scenes take place in Montenegro, Miami, or Venice.

Vesper commits suicide away from Bond, not in front of him.

Are there plenty of Fleming elements in CR 2006? Yes.

But the most faithful adaptation? I suggest that you watch FRWL and OHMSS - carefully this time as well :(


Please Hammer, don't hurt him.

#117 byline

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 11:08 PM

LTK's story was a lot closer to Fleming, but still wasn't anywhere near CR, which IMO is the closest the film series has come to putting Fleming faithfully on screen.


I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

I suspect this difference of opinion depends on whether you call a "faithful adaptation" one that adheres to the letter of its source material, or the spirit. For me, "Casino Royale" captures the spirit of the novel, even if it deviates in some fairly significant (but, I believe, necessary) ways from the book's details.

#118 Bondgator87

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 01:58 AM

I think Dalton's Bond is closer to the Bond Fleming wrote (particularly in LTK) than Craig's Bond. Let's not forget that the Bond Fleming wrote about in Casino Royale is not the young, inexperienced agent Craig gave us. He is, instead, a pro with a lot of missions under his belt.

#119 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 02:45 AM

I think Dalton's Bond is closer to the Bond Fleming wrote (particularly in LTK) than Craig's Bond. Let's not forget that the Bond Fleming wrote about in Casino Royale is not the young, inexperienced agent Craig gave us. He is, instead, a pro with a lot of missions under his belt.

As such, a pro would not normally go bat[censored] in South America killing druglords... :(

#120 jaguar007

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 04:09 AM

LTK's story was a lot closer to Fleming, but still wasn't anywhere near CR, which IMO is the closest the film series has come to putting Fleming faithfully on screen.


I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

I suspect this difference of opinion depends on whether you call a "faithful adaptation" one that adheres to the letter of its source material, or the spirit. For me, "Casino Royale" captures the spirit of the novel, even if it deviates in some fairly significant (but, I believe, necessary) ways from the book's details.


Agreed. CR was clearly updated over a longer period of time than FRWL or OHMSS had to be. Try filming FRWL in modern times without drastically changing it. CR more closley resembles the "mood" of the novel than most of the film adaptations.

I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.


Who gives a flying f***!

I would much rather have an actor with dark blonde hair who can portray the ruthlessness of the character with intelligance and skill than a dark haired "pretty boy" who brings nothing to the character than shows up, looks the part, and says his lines without any conviction.