169 replies to this topic

[Stephen Spotswood]

That might describe Moore, Brosnan or even Lazenby, but Dalton was a classically trained actor defninitely not lacking in conviction.

What are you going to say next, that Olivier and Burton were hacks?

For the life of me, not one of Craig's lines from CR are particularly memorable.

I understand he was in the Lora Croft movie, and can't remember him in it at all.

Dalton's eyes often seem to flash with anger, looking at Craig's eyes is like looking at a corpse.

But then he's an art house actor too, so that more a question of his interpretation of the character.

[Judo chop]

Dalton's eyes often seem to flash with anger, looking at Craig's eyes is like looking at a corpse.

Interesting.

I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.
You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.

Who gives a flying f***!

So as to actually add something to the conv., Bond does DRINK heavily throughout much of CR. Not literally the same thing as smoking, but surely the same thing in spirit. No pun intended.

[jaguar007]

That might describe Moore, Brosnan or even Lazenby, but Dalton was a classically trained actor defninitely not lacking in conviction.

What are you going to say next, that Olivier and Burton were hacks?

For the life of me, not one of Craig's lines from CR are particularly memorable.

I understand he was in the Lora Croft movie, and can't remember him in it at all.

Dalton's eyes often seem to flash with anger, looking at Craig's eyes is like looking at a corpse.

But then he's an art house actor too, so that more a question of his interpretation of the character.

I was not referring to Dalton, in fact I am a huge Dalton fan. I do think Craig is a more versitale and better film actor than Dalton, but overall I think Dalton is a bit closer to Fleming's Bond (Craig adds a bit of that good ol' Connery swagger that I never get when reading Fleming's books).

As far as Craig not having any memorable lines during CR, you must have been sleeping when you saw it.

[dee-bee-five]

What are you going to say next, that Olivier and Burton were hacks?

For much of the time, they were, actually. In fact, offhand, I can't think of an acclaimed actor who accepted as many crap jobs as Burton. And Olivier might have been acclaimed on screen but, for me, he's always been a ripe old ham.

[Loomis]

I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.

Who gives a flying f***!

I would much rather have an actor with dark blonde hair who can portray the ruthlessness of the character with intelligance and skill than a dark haired "pretty boy" who brings nothing to the character than shows up, looks the part, and says his lines without any conviction.

Quite. And I'd like the black hair brigade to explain how Craig fails to perfectly capture the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

Besides, when did Eon ever solemnly state that the films would be totally faithful to Fleming?

That said, the films have always - yes, always - been remarkably faithful to Fleming over the decades. Us Fleming fans can (and do) complain about this, that and the other, but, really, we've been astoundingly lucky. Even the late Moore era was stuffed with references to Fleming and surprising touches of fidelity to Fleming's 007. Most other Hollywood producers would have completely junked Fleming by then.

[Safari Suit]

Fleming Schmeming

[dee-bee-five]

I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.

Who gives a flying f***!

I would much rather have an actor with dark blonde hair who can portray the ruthlessness of the character with intelligance and skill than a dark haired "pretty boy" who brings nothing to the character than shows up, looks the part, and says his lines without any conviction.

Quite. And I'd like the black hair brigade to explain how Craig fails to perfectly capture the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

Besides, when did Eon ever solemnly state that the films would be totally faithful to Fleming?

That said, the films have always - yes, always - been remarkably faithful to Fleming over the decades. Us Fleming fans can (and do) complain about this, that and the other, but, really, we've been astoundingly lucky. Even the late Moore era was stuffed with references to Fleming and surprising touches of fidelity to Fleming's 007. Most other Hollywood producers would have completely junked Fleming by then.

Quite. You are so right about this. The fact that, nearly 50 years on from the first film, the producers still have a desire to be true to the spirit of Fleming (which I truly believe QoS is, for example), if not the letter, is remarkable. The Bond series is lucky to have the Broccolis. As are we.

[Loomis]

I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.

Who gives a flying f***!

I would much rather have an actor with dark blonde hair who can portray the ruthlessness of the character with intelligance and skill than a dark haired "pretty boy" who brings nothing to the character than shows up, looks the part, and says his lines without any conviction.

Quite. And I'd like the black hair brigade to explain how Craig fails to perfectly capture the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

Besides, when did Eon ever solemnly state that the films would be totally faithful to Fleming?

That said, the films have always - yes, always - been remarkably faithful to Fleming over the decades. Us Fleming fans can (and do) complain about this, that and the other, but, really, we've been astoundingly lucky. Even the late Moore era was stuffed with references to Fleming and surprising touches of fidelity to Fleming's 007. Most other Hollywood producers would have completely junked Fleming by then.

Quite. You are so right about this. The fact that, nearly 50 years on from the first film, the producers still have a desire to be true to the spirit of Fleming (which I truly believe QoS is, for example), if not the letter, is remarkable. The Bond series is lucky to have the Broccolis. As are we.

Indeed. And, yes, while I have a couple of issues with it as a film, I do find QUANTUM OF SOLACE to be by and large true to the spirit of Fleming, and to a rather extraordinary extent.

I believe Eon understands and cherishes Fleming more than some of the self-proclaimed Fleming purist Bond fans who are hung up on black hair (but, strangely enough, not hung up on the comma of it, the scar on the cheek, the Benzedrine habit or the seventy cigarettes a day).

It's also worth wondering not only how big a name Fleming would be, but also how in-print and how widely-read (as he is even today) he'd be had it not been for Eon's decades-long stewardship of his "legacy". Obviously, Glidrose/IFP is technically the guardian and champion of Fleming, but Eon has done a much better job over the decades.

[Safari Suit]

I believe Eon understands and cherishes Fleming more than some of the self-proclaimed Fleming purist Bond fans who are hung up on black hair (but, strangely enough, not hung up on the comma of it, the scar on the cheek, the Benzedrine habit or the seventy cigarettes a day).

It's also worth wondering not only how big a name Fleming would be, but also how in-print and how widely-read (as he is even today) he'd be had it not been for Eon's decades-long stewardship of his "legacy". Obviously, Glidrose/IFP is technically the guardian and champion of Fleming, but Eon has done a much better job over the decades.

Without wishing to disparage the poor man, I think we all know the answer to that.

What the hell is a "comma" of hair anyway?

I think some purists are very much hung up on the whole "seventy cigarettes thing though.

[dee-bee-five]

I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.

Who gives a flying f***!

I would much rather have an actor with dark blonde hair who can portray the ruthlessness of the character with intelligance and skill than a dark haired "pretty boy" who brings nothing to the character than shows up, looks the part, and says his lines without any conviction.

Quite. And I'd like the black hair brigade to explain how Craig fails to perfectly capture the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

Besides, when did Eon ever solemnly state that the films would be totally faithful to Fleming?

That said, the films have always - yes, always - been remarkably faithful to Fleming over the decades. Us Fleming fans can (and do) complain about this, that and the other, but, really, we've been astoundingly lucky. Even the late Moore era was stuffed with references to Fleming and surprising touches of fidelity to Fleming's 007. Most other Hollywood producers would have completely junked Fleming by then.

Quite. You are so right about this. The fact that, nearly 50 years on from the first film, the producers still have a desire to be true to the spirit of Fleming (which I truly believe QoS is, for example), if not the letter, is remarkable. The Bond series is lucky to have the Broccolis. As are we.

Indeed. And, yes, while I have a couple of issues with it as a film, I do find QUANTUM OF SOLACE to be by and large true to the spirit of Fleming, and to a rather extraordinary extent.

I believe Eon understands and cherishes Fleming more than some of the self-proclaimed Fleming purist Bond fans who are hung up on black hair (but, strangely enough, not hung up on the comma of it, the scar on the cheek, the Benzedrine habit or the seventy cigarettes a day).

It's also worth wondering not only how big a name Fleming would be, but also how in-print and how widely-read (as he is even today) he'd be had it not been for Eon's decades-long stewardship of his "legacy". Obviously, Glidrose/IFP is technically the guardian and champion of Fleming, but Eon has done a much better job over the decades.

Again, agree. It really is odd how the "self-proclaimed Fleming purists" as you so aptly describe them (and who often belie their actual ignorance of Fleming's works) don't hanker after things other than those you mention. Daniel Craig's blond hair is criticised, but where, for instance, are the thin hairs (mentioned in DR. NO) on Roger Moore or Timothy Dalton's chests? And is Connery's coconut matting on his chest a betrayal of that description? Trivial? Of course. But no more so than being hung up on black hair.

I think some purists are very much hung up on the whole "seventy cigarettes thing though.

To be honest, that is one characteristic of Bond that I would have preferred them to retain as nowadays showing a character smoking is useful shorthand for his living on the edge and not giving a damn for political correctness. But I understand the political reasons why they have backed away from this and it's not something I can get anal about.

[Curtis]

Timothy Dalton is definitly 007, but LTK is still a sort of problem for me...And the fact that Dalton wears the tux like a waiter...

[Safari Suit]

I think some purists are very much hung up on the whole "seventy cigarettes thing though.

To be honest, that is one characteristic of Bond that I would have preferred them to retain as nowadays showing a character smoking is useful shorthand for his living on the edge and not giving a damn for political correctness. But I understand the political reasons why they have backed away from this and it's not something I can get anal about.

I don't think it's just a political correctness thing though, or if it is it just so happenns it reflects the truth that far less people smoke these days, especially people who live lives as physically demanding as Bond.

[Loomis]

I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.

Who gives a flying f***!

I would much rather have an actor with dark blonde hair who can portray the ruthlessness of the character with intelligance and skill than a dark haired "pretty boy" who brings nothing to the character than shows up, looks the part, and says his lines without any conviction.

Quite. And I'd like the black hair brigade to explain how Craig fails to perfectly capture the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

Besides, when did Eon ever solemnly state that the films would be totally faithful to Fleming?

That said, the films have always - yes, always - been remarkably faithful to Fleming over the decades. Us Fleming fans can (and do) complain about this, that and the other, but, really, we've been astoundingly lucky. Even the late Moore era was stuffed with references to Fleming and surprising touches of fidelity to Fleming's 007. Most other Hollywood producers would have completely junked Fleming by then.

Quite. You are so right about this. The fact that, nearly 50 years on from the first film, the producers still have a desire to be true to the spirit of Fleming (which I truly believe QoS is, for example), if not the letter, is remarkable. The Bond series is lucky to have the Broccolis. As are we.

Indeed. And, yes, while I have a couple of issues with it as a film, I do find QUANTUM OF SOLACE to be by and large true to the spirit of Fleming, and to a rather extraordinary extent.

I believe Eon understands and cherishes Fleming more than some of the self-proclaimed Fleming purist Bond fans who are hung up on black hair (but, strangely enough, not hung up on the comma of it, the scar on the cheek, the Benzedrine habit or the seventy cigarettes a day).

It's also worth wondering not only how big a name Fleming would be, but also how in-print and how widely-read (as he is even today) he'd be had it not been for Eon's decades-long stewardship of his "legacy". Obviously, Glidrose/IFP is technically the guardian and champion of Fleming, but Eon has done a much better job over the decades.

Again, agree. It really is odd how the "self-proclaimed Fleming purists" as you so aptly describe them (and who often belie their actual ignorance of Fleming's works) don't hanker after things other than those you mention. Daniel Craig's blond hair is criticised, but where, for instance, are the thin hairs (mentioned in DR. NO) on Roger Moore or Timothy Dalton's chests? And is Connery's coconut matting on his chest a betrayal of that description? Trivial? Of course. But no more so than being hung up on black hair.

I think some purists are very much hung up on the whole "seventy cigarettes thing though.

To be honest, that is one characteristic of Bond that I would have preferred them to retain as nowadays showing a character smoking is useful shorthand for his living on the edge and not giving a damn for political correctness. But I understand the political reasons why they have backed away from this and it's not something I can get anal about.

I'm a smoker myself, but I have no desire to see Bond smoking. In fact, the repeated exposure through my Bond DVDs (well, most of them) of the sight of fit men (in both senses) managing to get through life perfectly well without cigarettes will, I hope, help me one day to give up. Not, mind you, that it's done so yet, in all these years of hardcore Bond fandom and obsessive 007 DVD rewatching.

Still, the one point in the Craig era where, had I had the power, I might have added a scene of our hero smoking is the Greene Planet party scene. Craig's Bond having a "social smoke" at that point would register subconsciously as an up-yours to the sham of Greene's trendy environmentalism.

Obviously, even if Eon were to go back to having a Bond who smoked cigarettes (an idea that we can forget about for certain obvious reasons), the so-called Fleming purists would complain that he was shown putting away only a handful of cigs per film and that therefore he was a travesty of Fleming's Bond, who's supposed to smoke dozens a day. There's just no pleasing some "fans". To achieve that level of Fidellity To Flemming™, you'd have to have Craig lighting up in practically every scene, and pausing for at least two gaspers during the African Rundown sequence (and then resuming his pursuit of the bomber, with no signs of being out of breath or suffering any negative consequences of smoking, natch*).

*I mean, I don't think Fleming ever wrote: "Bond awoke and extracted the first blessed cigarette of the day from the gunmetal case. He drew the life-giving smoke deeply into his lungs, and then coughed until his face turned purple. Walking to the bathroom with an unsteady gait, Bond delivered of a mouthful of brown phlegm, then stood under an ice-cold shower and wondered angrily why M had chosen to pair him with a woman on this assignment. Didn't M know that they were only good for pots and pans and gossip?"

[dee-bee-five]

I suggest you go back and read CR, and in Draco's words, carefully this time.

You'll find that Bond has black hair, and smokes like a chimney.

Who gives a flying f***!

I would much rather have an actor with dark blonde hair who can portray the ruthlessness of the character with intelligance and skill than a dark haired "pretty boy" who brings nothing to the character than shows up, looks the part, and says his lines without any conviction.

Quite. And I'd like the black hair brigade to explain how Craig fails to perfectly capture the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

Besides, when did Eon ever solemnly state that the films would be totally faithful to Fleming?

That said, the films have always - yes, always - been remarkably faithful to Fleming over the decades. Us Fleming fans can (and do) complain about this, that and the other, but, really, we've been astoundingly lucky. Even the late Moore era was stuffed with references to Fleming and surprising touches of fidelity to Fleming's 007. Most other Hollywood producers would have completely junked Fleming by then.

Quite. You are so right about this. The fact that, nearly 50 years on from the first film, the producers still have a desire to be true to the spirit of Fleming (which I truly believe QoS is, for example), if not the letter, is remarkable. The Bond series is lucky to have the Broccolis. As are we.

Indeed. And, yes, while I have a couple of issues with it as a film, I do find QUANTUM OF SOLACE to be by and large true to the spirit of Fleming, and to a rather extraordinary extent.

I believe Eon understands and cherishes Fleming more than some of the self-proclaimed Fleming purist Bond fans who are hung up on black hair (but, strangely enough, not hung up on the comma of it, the scar on the cheek, the Benzedrine habit or the seventy cigarettes a day).

It's also worth wondering not only how big a name Fleming would be, but also how in-print and how widely-read (as he is even today) he'd be had it not been for Eon's decades-long stewardship of his "legacy". Obviously, Glidrose/IFP is technically the guardian and champion of Fleming, but Eon has done a much better job over the decades.

Again, agree. It really is odd how the "self-proclaimed Fleming purists" as you so aptly describe them (and who often belie their actual ignorance of Fleming's works) don't hanker after things other than those you mention. Daniel Craig's blond hair is criticised, but where, for instance, are the thin hairs (mentioned in DR. NO) on Roger Moore or Timothy Dalton's chests? And is Connery's coconut matting on his chest a betrayal of that description? Trivial? Of course. But no more so than being hung up on black hair.

I think some purists are very much hung up on the whole "seventy cigarettes thing though.

To be honest, that is one characteristic of Bond that I would have preferred them to retain as nowadays showing a character smoking is useful shorthand for his living on the edge and not giving a damn for political correctness. But I understand the political reasons why they have backed away from this and it's not something I can get anal about.

I'm a smoker myself, but I have no desire to see Bond smoking. In fact, the repeated exposure through my Bond DVDs (well, most of them) of the sight of fit men (in both senses) managing to get through life perfectly well without cigarettes will, I hope, help me one day to give up. Not, mind you, that it's done so yet, in all these years of hardcore Bond fandom and obsessive 007 DVD rewatching.

Still, the one point in the Craig era where, had I had the power, I might have added a scene of our hero smoking is the Greene Planet party scene. Craig's Bond having a "social smoke" at that point would register subconsciously as an up-yours to the sham of Greene's trendy environmentalism.

Obviously, even if Eon were to go back to having a Bond who smoked cigarettes (an idea that we can forget about for certain obvious reasons), the so-called Fleming purists would complain that he was shown putting away only a handful of cigs per film and that therefore he was a travesty of Fleming's Bond, who's supposed to smoke dozens a day. There's just no pleasing some "fans". To achieve that level of Fidellity To Flemming™, you'd have to have Craig lighting up in practically every scene, and pausing for at least two gaspers during the African Rundown sequence (and then resuming his pursuit of the bomber, with no signs of being out of breath or suffering any negative consequences of smoking, natch*).

*I mean, I don't think Fleming ever wrote: "Bond awoke and extracted the first blessed cigarette of the day from the gunmetal case. He drew the life-giving smoke deeply into his lungs, and then coughed until his face turned purple. Walking to the bathroom with an unsteady gait, Bond delivered of a mouthful of brown phlegm, then stood under an ice-cold shower and wondered angrily why M had chosen to pair him with a woman on this assignment. Didn't M know that they were only good for pots and pans and gossip?"

Very good.

It's funny that I, as a lifelong non-smoker, should prefer to see Bond smoking. But I do, although accept it's possible he probably never will do again. Perhaps my opinion is coloured by the fact the the coolest moment in the Bond series in my opinion - hell, one of the coolest moments in screen history dammit - is Connery's "Bond, James Bond" intro in Dr. No. And that scene is simply unthinkable without his lighting the cigarette.

Timothy Dalton is definitly 007, but LTK is still a sort of problem for me...And the fact that Dalton wears the tux like a waiter...

"Tuxedos are for waiters" - Norma Desmond, Sunset Boulevard.

[Loomis]

the coolest moment in the Bond series in my opinion - hell, one of the coolest moments in screen history dammit - is Connery's "Bond, James Bond" intro in Dr. No. And that scene is simply unthinkable without his lighting the cigarette.

Oh, absolutely.

[Stephen Spotswood]

Actually in one brief scene in LTK, Bond IS a waiter.

[Mr. Blofeld]

the coolest moment in the Bond series in my opinion - hell, one of the coolest moments in screen history dammit - is Connery's "Bond, James Bond" intro in Dr. No. And that scene is simply unthinkable without his lighting the cigarette.

Oh, absolutely.

Wasn't that Terence Young's idea? Sadly, we never see it again in the series...

"Bond..." *click* "...James Bond."

(Nevermind the fact that, back in Fleming's day, everybody introduced themselves with "Last-Name; First-Name Last-Name"... )

[Licence_007]

Dalton still ranks higher on my Bond scale. QoS kind of ruined what Craig's Bond could've been.

[jaguar007]

Wasn't that Terence Young's idea? Sadly, we never see it again in the series...

"Bond..." *click* "...James Bond."

Why would we want to see it again? We saw it once, it worked well in Dr.No and I see no reason to try to copy and do it again.

[doublenoughtspy]

Wasn't that Terence Young's idea? Sadly, we never see it again in the series...

"Bond..." *click* "...James Bond."

Why would we want to see it again? We saw it once, it worked well in Dr.No and I see no reason to try to copy and do it again.

But when someone like Forster copies Hamilton's Golden Girl shot in QOS it's celebrated as genius...cough cough.

[jaguar007]

Wasn't that Terence Young's idea? Sadly, we never see it again in the series...

"Bond..." *click* "...James Bond."

Why would we want to see it again? We saw it once, it worked well in Dr.No and I see no reason to try to copy and do it again.

But when someone like Forster copies Hamilton's Golden Girl shot in QOS it's celebrated as genius...cough cough.

Who said copying Hamilton's golden girl shot in QoS was genius???????

[Loomis]

Members of Forster's family, perhaps. I certainly don't recall any Bond fans celebrating that particular bit of the film as a stroke of genius on Forster's part.

[dee-bee-five]

Wasn't that Terence Young's idea? Sadly, we never see it again in the series...

"Bond..." *click* "...James Bond."

Why would we want to see it again? We saw it once, it worked well in Dr.No and I see no reason to try to copy and do it again.

No-one is suggesting they should. Loomis and I were celebrating what it was. That said, there was a definite echo of it in Hunt's first shots of Lazenby in the Aston in the pre-credits of OHMSS.

[Stephen Spotswood]

How about Bond smoking weed?

[Loomis]

Just think of all the product placement opportunities for when he gets the munchies!

[dee-bee-five]

How about Bond smoking weed?

Not a bad idea.

After all, a drug habit didn't hurt Sherlock Holmes, did it...?

[Revelator]

Not a bad idea.

After all, a drug habit didn't hurt Sherlock Holmes, did it...?

Doyle eventually thought the opposite--Holmes's drug use was rarely discussed after the first few stories, and by the time of "The Adventure of the Missing Three-Quarter" Watson tells us that he "had gradually weaned [Holmes] from that drug mania which had threatened once to check his remarkable career."
Nevertheless, there's irony in the fact that were Bond to smoke pot onscreen it would probably raises less protest than if he went back to cigarettes. Times now ain't what they used to be...

Edited by Revelator, 22 January 2009 - 02:36 AM.

[dee-bee-five]

Not a bad idea.

After all, a drug habit didn't hurt Sherlock Holmes, did it...?

Doyle eventually thought the opposite--Holmes's drug use was rarely discussed after the first few stories, and by the time of "The Adventure of the Missing Three-Quarter" Watson tells us that he "had gradually weaned [Holmes] from that drug mania which had threatened once to check his remarkable career."
Nevertheless, there's irony in the fact that were Bond to smoke pot onscreen it would probably raises less protest than if he went back to cigarettes. Times now ain't what they used to be...

Interesting. Of course, they were all at in the 19th century as the following tiny extract from a much lengthier piece on the history of cocaine use in The Independent outlined in 2006:

Writers loved it. Henrik Ibsen, Émile Zola, Jules Verne, Alexander Dumas, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle were all mad for it. Robert Louis Stephenson wrote The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde during a six-day cocaine binge. Royalty were enthusiasts. Queen Victoria, King George of Greece, King Alphonse XIII of Spain, the Shah of Persia and US presidents William McKinley and Ulysses S. Grant all knocked it back.
The polar explorer Ernest Shackleton took a similar product in tablet form to Antarctica, as did Captain Scott with less happy results. Auguste Bartholdi said that if he had taken Vin Mariani beforehand he would have designed the Statue of Liberty several hundred metres taller. In addition to the general feeling of well-being it induced it was also said to be "a most wonderful invigorator of the sexual organs" - not a feature which is mentioned in the papal endorsement.

[Stephen Spotswood]

Just think of all the product placement opportunities for when he gets the munchies!

Twinkies don't sound high-brow enough.

[jaguar007]

Bond: "I'll have the Bollinger 1996 Grande Annee with Beluga Caviar. And some Cheetos."