88 replies to this topic

[Mark_Hazard]

From a very early age I was taught that I should always give up my seat on a bus for women and the elderly and to also hold open doors for the same.

True exchange during my Feminist Theory classes at university (I am a feminist):

My best friend opens door for Alice:
Alice (haughty but smart): "You don't have to do that because I'm a woman."
My best friend: "No, Alice, I'm doing it because I'm a gentleman."

Also from an early age I was aware that some older people expected me to hold doors open for them as if it was what I was born to do, without a "thank you" to encourage me to repeat the process. I soon learned a way to get my own back, I still remember the first time:

Having held open a door for an elderly man, who just walked straight through, I said "Pardon!" (quite loudly). The man turned and said "I didn't say anything" to which I replied "Sorry, I thought you said 'Thank You'". I'd never seen a face turn so red so quickly.

[Mister Asterix]

There can also be a downside to chivalry. My father for example (and the same applies to various middle aged men I know) is ostensibly extremely chivalrous - door opening, bill paying, seat giving blah blah all day long. However, the attitude that prompts him to behave this way is the same attitude that leads him to think that women are indeed inferior, they shouldn't be politicians, in fact they shouldn't be anything except nurses, secretaries, primary school teachers or mothers. Nor should they drive, wear trousers or flat shoes, have short hair or go out without their 'face' on. In fact, they shouldn't really think for themselves. Therein lies the problem. A lot of the chivalrous principles abide in this idea that things should be done for women because we are too weak/useless/whatever to do them ourselves. I hope very much that the current generation of men are evolved enough to see the stupidity in this and go straight for politeness but clearly the middle ground hasn't been found yet. For the record, I am perfectly happy to be paid compliments, have doors opened for me, seats given up for and I expect a man to ask me out and would never, ever dream of asking a man out myself. According to my young cousins this makes me desperately old fashioned.

[mra]I was thinking about the example of your father, and I would point out that until recently that essentially two types of men were the vast majority. The first was the type like your father who were respectful toward women and saw them as

[Mister Asterix]

[mra]So it turns out that chivalry is not dead after all. On Tuesday, because of the holiday here in the States, I was able to leave work early and grab the earliest bus home. Apparently this was everyone else

[Santa]

Well, Mr *, that is indeed a lovely little story. I have always found people in the US to be more chivalrous than the English - all that "have a nice day" stuff and being called "ma'am", I love it.

[darkpath]

Well, Mr *, that is indeed a lovely little story. I have always found people in the US to be more chivalrous than the English - all that "have a nice day" stuff and being called "ma'am", I love it.

I must say that catches me by surprise. I'll have to ponder this, as I had been given to presume that the opposite was the case. I suppose I have been unduly unfair to my countrymen, for which I collectively apologize.

[Santa]

Well, Mr *, that is indeed a lovely little story. I have always found people in the US to be more chivalrous than the English - all that "have a nice day" stuff and being called "ma'am", I love it.

I must say that catches me by surprise. I'll have to ponder this, as I had been given to presume that the opposite was the case. I suppose I have been unduly unfair to my countrymen, for which I collectively apologize.

People are different though - the Spanish for example are famous for being friendly and open but many expats here have had a shock at the reality which is often very different. When I was younger and worked as a shop assistant I was sooo embarassed by how rude the Spanish staff were to customers. They have no concept of customer service here whatsoever, I used to have to chase after people and apologise for the other staff and explain I was happy to help. As far as Americans go, I'm sure not all are that friendly but when I'm there I find a good British accent goes a long way .

[DaveBond21]

I think it's alive and well.

[Mister Asterix]

Well, Mr *, that is indeed a lovely little story. I have always found people in the US to be more chivalrous than the English - all that "have a nice day" stuff and being called "ma'am", I love it.

but it is so insincere. Do you not value sincerity with your 'have a nice days?' Also, to be pedantic, what is chivalrous about wishing someone to have a nice day? I think people on this thread are mis-defining chivalry.

[mra]So say it with sincerity yourself. Years ago I found myself insincerely saying,

[Santa]

Well, Mr *, that is indeed a lovely little story. I have always found people in the US to be more chivalrous than the English - all that "have a nice day" stuff and being called "ma'am", I love it.

but it is so insincere. Do you not value sincerity with your 'have a nice days?' Also, to be pedantic, what is chivalrous about wishing someone to have a nice day? I think people on this thread are mis-defining chivalry.

Maybe sometimes it's insincere, sometimes it's not. And maybe it's not strictly chivalrous either but it's still a far nicer way to go about the daily business of correspondence with other human beings than the grudging grunt of acknowledgement, if you're lucky, which I find is the more usual response in Britain.

[Judo chop]

GOOD DAY TO YOU ALL, GENTS AND LADIES ALIKE!!!

[Santa]

And a very good day to you too, kind Sir

[YellowDetective]

I don't know about dead, but certainly in poor health... :/

Too many people are just in it for No. 1 and there's also a problem--though perhaps less common--of society seeing those who do good/nice things as somehow being stupid or a sucker, which might add to the lack of motivation to be nice...

I don't know... I could analyze it all day, but would probably just end up getting depressed.

I for one hold doors open, and would offer a seat. If that makes me a sucker, then I'm damn proud of it!

[Byron]

Too many people are just in it for No. 1 and there's also a problem--though perhaps less common--of society seeing those who do good/nice things as somehow being stupid or a sucker, which might add to the lack of motivation to be nice..

You know i think you are onto something there. I consider myself a very generous and giving person and several times the people i have treated really well (inviting over for dinner multiple times, involving them in family functions, even had one "friend" stay with me rent free for 4 months with free meals, washing, entertainment etc) and over time these people have turned on me and become really nasty.

It is my belief now that the more you do for someone, the more likely they will turn around and betray you. I cannot explain it but maybe other people have had this experience.

[Santa]

I buy coffee for homeless guys

I've stopped doing that since one gave me a look of disgust and asked if he could have a fiver instead...

[Judo chop]

I buy coffee for homeless guys

I've stopped doing that since one gave me a look of disgust and asked if he could have a fiver instead...

If a fiver is not a five dollar bill, I'm afraid to know...

The dilemna for me is knowing who's really homeless. It's hard to know if you're being taken or not. And it's not so much the 'being taken' that stings, but knowing that your $5 (or whatever) was wasted and isn't going to someone who really could use it. These kinds of conmen and women aren't just stealing from the charitable, but from those in need of charity as well.

Still, better to be a sucker with a kind heart than a hopeless cynic, so I try not to let doubt stop me. The best thing to do for those who look homeless is to give them food coupons which you've bought in advance - something non-refundable and only good for food.
Actually, the best thing you can do probably is to get them to a shelter.

Oops. We've got off of chivalry and onto charity. My error. So... back to: "Opening doors for a lady: Good or Bad?"

[Santa]

Good. Definitely good.
I used to have a favourite tramp in Reading. He was a right state and had this funny habit of running around all day, run run run, all the time. I really used to worry about him so one day I gave him my last fiver and had to go hungry myself the next day. He probably put it towards a bottle of Jack Daniels but I was pleased with myself anyway.

[Bon-san]

Well, Mr *, that is indeed a lovely little story. I have always found people in the US to be more chivalrous than the English - all that "have a nice day" stuff and being called "ma'am", I love it.

but it is so insincere. Do you not value sincerity with your 'have a nice days?' Also, to be pedantic, what is chivalrous about wishing someone to have a nice day? I think people on this thread are mis-defining chivalry.

Maybe sometimes it's insincere, sometimes it's not. And maybe it's not strictly chivalrous either but it's still a far nicer way to go about the daily business of correspondence with other human beings than the grudging grunt of acknowledgement, if you're lucky, which I find is the more usual response in Britain.

I don't agree at all!!! I buy coffee for homeless guys, would give them my last fag, I would give a drunken tramp a couple of quid, I mandate to various charities, I give up my seat to the elderly and pregnant (and injured, or encumbered) but I am capable of holding my own doors open and if a bloke opens it for me, although I acknowledge gratitude I know he is meaning to be nice, I reflect that he has a superior view of me and I don't like it. Unless of course we are together and he reaches the door first.

When I was in Houston, it seemed to me a lot of perfect strangers were quite frankly over familiar in their friendliness. No, it's not a nicer way, it is the American way, which unfortunately smacks of insincerity.

Now, basic good manners and civility, well that is another matter!

My view is, be polite and if you can't do that then be civil but don't be overfamiliar and don't go overboard. I don't know if this is a British attitude or just mine.

As an American who is frequently critical of America and Americans, I would say that one thing I can't fault Americans for is insincerity*. I find it odd that being friendly to strangers should be equated with insincerity. Ever been to Greece? You must have considered it the most insincere place on the globe.

People from different cultures/locales have different social characteristics. Being criticically dismissive of the differences is something for which Americans are (notoriously) guilty. As are, apparently, people from other places.


* Politicians excepted, of course.

[MkB]

Well, do you want to read something fun about "chivalry", guys ? :-)

Here is my moment of glory...

Once upon a time, in a country far-far away, the White Knight MkB was queuing up at the local department store.
The lady just before me was a sympathetic looking old Grandma, and she was talking with the cashier, telling her that she had a long way to walk with her heavy shopping to go home, and it was cold, and she looked very frail.
So I felt in the mood of proposing her : "Well, I hapen to leave next the street you just mentioned. I'd be very happy to give you a lift !". The Grandma cheerfully thanked me, but (lucky me! you'll soon understand why) she refused with energy, explaining that she needed to walk to keep fit, but thank you so much, etc. OK, no problem !

Then, the White Knight MkB went out of the department store and.... froze !
I just remembered that this day, unlike the other days, I hadn't take my car to go shopping, but... my bicycle !
Can you imagine me asking the Grandma : "Ahem... Er... Well, do you prefer a ride on the luggage-rack, or on the handlebars ?"

Anyway, I hope the Grandma lived happily ever after ! ;-)

[Santa]

Chivalry?
I just helped a bloke at the pub quiz with the answer to one of the questions. He didn't say thank you but he did ask if I would sit on his lap. Fortunately I tend to see the funny side of these things . The old woman across the way was less impressed and wanted to slap him.

[DamnCoffee]

So since my office moved to an easier spot to do so, I've been riding the bus to work everyday. My pick-up point is the last stop for the express bus before it makes a 12-mile (about 20 klick) non-stop journey to the city.

This morning the bus was rather full when it arrived and there were about a dozen people waiting at my stop (four men including myself, the rest women). As I do every morning, I stood back and let all of the women board before I did, despite the fact I was first to arrive. Two of the men took the opportunity to board amidst the women. After everyone was on board, all the seats were full and three people had to stand. Left standing were myself, the one gentleman who boarded behind me, and one lady.

As we rode to the city, I looked around and counted 17 men sitting in the bus, while this one lady stood. I was shocked that none offered her their seat. Not one. None of these men were what I'd call elderly. All seemed perfectly capable of standing, but not a single one seemed to give it a thought.

When the bus arrived at the first four people left the bus, leaving one seat near where this lady and I were standing and three seats at the far end of the bus. I offer the lady the seat near by and walked to one of the two remaining seats (after the other standing gentleman had sat down).

So did I miss the memo? Is chivalry dead? Is it considered sexist now to be kind to someone of the opposite sex? Should I have just taken the front of the line boarding the bus and let two women stand for the trip? And pertinent to these fora, what would James Bond do?

I wouldn't call it sexist. I would call it being a gentleman, and having good manners. But to be honest, giving up a seat for anyone is having good manners regardless of gender. I mean, I would let an elderly man take my seat if I was on a bus. Same with a pregnant woman.

I mean, I think it is very important to be kind and curtious to all humans, not just females. Chivalry although being a bad thing, still is going by old ways of that men are stronger and women are weaker meaning that men have to always make the women more comfortable which isn't true, women are 100% of doing anything a man can. I think if you have the chance to be curtious to anyone, male or female then do it and do it because it is the right thing to do and not because they are female. I think it is a great thing to offer a women a seat or to let them go in front in line, but only if you are willing to do that for a man or if women are going to offer to return the favor to men.Chivalry may not be dead, but it seems kindness is dwindling.

[Red Barchetta]

I hate to sound sexist here, but here are some facts...

Men are stronger, and as a rule, larger than woman, so the whole men = women = men thing doesn't work.

Men don't think about relationships, they think about food, sex, sleep, sex, food, sex, well, you see where I'm going. Women think about emotions, kindness, how can I be kind to others, etc.

Men show chivalry toward women for a few reasons-

1. To infer civility towards women, to show not all men are pigs.

2. To advance a kinder disposition.

3. To demonstrate that men can be good mates.

This is not to be confused with good manners. Though they can overlap, chivalry is about courage, loyalty, kindness towards women, etc. Though it may seem outdated in today's world, I still believe women appreciate men fixing their flat tires on the side of the road, killing the spider that just ran across her arm, or just holding the door open for her. Women want to feel safe, and protected- that's why I get up in the middle of the night when I hear something strange, or why when we walk down the sidewalk, I always walk between my wife and the street.

My 2cc's.

[DamnCoffee]

Men don't think about relationships, they think about food, sex, sleep, sex, food, sex...

Actually all they think about is food, sex, sleep, james bond, food, sex, sleep, james bond, food, sleep...

[Santa]

Men don't think about relationships, they think about food, sex, sleep, sex, food, sex, well, you see where I'm going. Women think about emotions, kindness, how can I be kind to others, etc.

Ah, bless you. You're giving us too much credit - it actually goes something like shopping, Brad Pitt, chocolate, shopping, Johnny Depp, chocolate...

I still believe women appreciate men fixing their flat tires on the side of the road

Last time I was involved in a tyre change situation, it was in a male friend's car, with another bloke too. As neither of the men knew how to change the tyre, I had to do it - with a broken rib and while dressed in white linen .

[Judo chop]

Slightly paraphrased...

here are some facts...

Men think about food, sex, sleep, sex, food, sex...

Men show chivalry toward women to show not all men are pigs.

Looks like you pretty much gave us away on that one, Barchetta.

On a slightly serious note, that is ridiculous statement. I think about my relationship with my wife all the time (and if women think about relationships more often than men, it may have something to do with the fact that relationships between women are more oft on the brink of argument and dissent than are those between men). I think about how blessed I am to have my daughter, and who she will become and how important I am in her life and worry about how she would cope without me, God please forbid. I think about a better career for myself. I think about traveling to the corners of the earth and I think about what mysteries lie in outer space. I think a lot about movies and music. I think a lot about fine beer, wine, scotch (and recently tequilla). I think about good and evil, and fate and freewill, the meaning of life, love and God and how they're all connected.

Am I such a rare breed? Am I really that special among all men? Or is that saying - 'men only think about food, sex, sleep' - really a bit...

um...

stupid?

[Red Barchetta]

Slightly paraphrased...

here are some facts...

Men think about food, sex, sleep, sex, food, sex...

Men show chivalry toward women to show not all men are pigs.

Looks like you pretty much gave us away on that one, Barchetta.

On a slightly serious note, that is ridiculous statement. I think about my relationship with my wife all the time (and if women think about relationships more often than men, it may have something to do with the fact that relationships between women are more oft on the brink of argument and dissent than are those between men). I think about how blessed I am to have my daughter, and who she will become and how important I am in her life and worry about how she would cope without me, God please forbid. I think about a better career for myself. I think about traveling to the corners of the earth and I think about what mysteries lie in outer space. I think a lot about movies and music. I think a lot about fine beer, wine, scotch (and recently tequilla). I think about good and evil, and fate and freewill, the meaning of life, love and God and how they're all connected.

Am I such a rare breed? Am I really that special among all men? Or is that saying - 'men only think about food, sex, sleep' - really a bit...

um...

stupid?

The point I'm making is men think along different lines of thought vs. women. Always have, always will.

[MkB]

Last time I was involved in a tyre change situation, it was in a male friend's car, with another bloke too. As neither of the men knew how to change the tyre, I had to do it - with a broken rib and while dressed in white linen .

That's what I call a White (linen) Knight!
This "men fix flat tyres" thing is sooooo cliché... Flat tyres aren't a man's thing. It's a mechanic's thing!

[Johnboy007]

In a similar vein, why are people so rude to waiters and shop assistants? They are people doing a job, just like you. By all means point out bad service but they are not slaves or idiots so don't treat them as such. Mind you, similarly, waiters and shop staff: You are there to do a job. Serve the customer with a little bit of grace, please.

Rereading this thread and came across this, and I must say: "Thank you!"

I'm working as a cashier over the summer and it's mind-boggling how terribly rude some people can be. I try to scan and bag everything as quickly as possible because I know that some people are sometimes in a real hurry, but yelling at me or making snide remarks doesn't make things go any faster. I do the best I can and ought to be called on when I screw up, but at least be civil about it.

As for rude employees, I think part of it comes from needing to get people in and out quickly. I would love to chat with just about everyone that comes through my line, but I have a long line of people waiting to leave. Still, I'll at least say "Hello. How are you? Did you find everything okay?" to everyone with a smile and as much enthusiasm as I can muster. There isn't much of an excuse to do otherwise, and I've found it makes my job more pleasant. It's a shame some don't make an attempt.

There have been and always will be the curmudgeons, but there isn't much that can be done for them.

[Judo chop]

Slightly paraphrased...

here are some facts...

Men think about food, sex, sleep, sex, food, sex...

Men show chivalry toward women to show not all men are pigs.

Looks like you pretty much gave us away on that one, Barchetta.

On a slightly serious note, that is ridiculous statement. I think about my relationship with my wife all the time (and if women think about relationships more often than men, it may have something to do with the fact that relationships between women are more oft on the brink of argument and dissent than are those between men). I think about how blessed I am to have my daughter, and who she will become and how important I am in her life and worry about how she would cope without me, God please forbid. I think about a better career for myself. I think about traveling to the corners of the earth and I think about what mysteries lie in outer space. I think a lot about movies and music. I think a lot about fine beer, wine, scotch (and recently tequilla). I think about good and evil, and fate and freewill, the meaning of life, love and God and how they're all connected.

Am I such a rare breed? Am I really that special among all men? Or is that saying - 'men only think about food, sex, sleep' - really a bit...

um...

stupid?

The point I'm making is men think along different lines of thought vs. women. Always have, always will.

I would agree that thought processing is probably much different between men and women. (Really, it’s all speculative. The human mind is quite the labyrinth and can’t be so simplified). But in terms of subject matter, well, we’re all human and I think the subject matter we choose to think about is based more on personality than gender.

Looking up, I hope you didn’t take my ‘stupid’ comment to mean that I was calling YOU stupid, Barchetta. I was attacking the cliché that all men’s thinking is so compartmental. Not you. I hope that wasn't misunderstood.

[Santa]

As for rude employees, I think part of it comes from needing to get people in and out quickly. I would love to chat with just about everyone that comes through my line, but I have a long line of people waiting to leave. Still, I'll at least say "Hello. How are you? Did you find everything okay?" to everyone with a smile and as much enthusiasm as I can muster. There isn't much of an excuse to do otherwise, and I've found it makes my job more pleasant. It's a shame some don't make an attempt.

Of course, and in the US I've actually always found the service excellent, but I was referring more to here in Spain, really, where shop staff are almost in competition to see who can be the rudest to the customers (when I used to do shop work here I was so embarassed by the rudeness of the other staff). Waiters are not, but shop staff here are frightening.