75 replies to this topic

[HildebrandRarity]

good scene tastefully and rather SUBTLEY done.

Nothing subtle about it, IMHO. Every emotion and point is just *pounded* into the audiences head. For example, a single look could have said Bond resented what he just had to do (which would have been subtle), but they had to have him lean over her body (which is not subtle).

Harmsway, my good man, what did you make of BrosnanBond leaning over Paris' strangled corpse and kissing it before climbing out of the Hamburg hotel room?

Should he have snuggled her face?

Should he have simply just caressed her hair?

Should he have just pulled a sheet over her body gently?

What do you make of it? How would you change it, if at all?

:-)

Edited by HildebrandRarity, 01 October 2006 - 07:39 PM.

[DamnCoffee]

I thought that was a sweet scene and another one of Pierce's best moments

[Harmsway]

Harmsway, my good man, what did you make of BrosnanBond leaning over Paris' strangled corpse and kissing it before climbing out of the Hamburg hotel room?

I rather disliked it, Firstly, because it felt awkward and a sort of throwaway when shoved in a very comedic film (that particular moment was even shoved in among a very comedic assault on Carver's presses, a very comedic confrontation with an assassin, and a very comedic car chase). Secondly, I couldn't buy that Bond would be so in love with Paris Carver as she was portrayed there.

Should he have simply just caressed her hair?

Well, assuming the tone of the film changed enough to make such a dramatic moment click and seem integrated, I would go with a simple caress of her hair. Kissing a dead body... ewwwwwww.

But it's a very different moment from TWINE's - taking time to mourn someone he had a genuine relationship with is very different from taking time to mourn someone he had a one-night stand with and then subsequently betrayed him, captured M, tried to kill him on multiple occaisions, and tortured him.

[Robert Watts]

Don't forget that brief bit where he seems to mourn Miranda in DAD.



As I've said, the whole thing with Brosnan's Bond and dead women gave off a very gross, creepy (and necrophilliac) vibe that didn't suit Bond (IMO) at all.

[License To Kill]

[quote name='SecretAgentFan' post='611885' date='22 September 2006 - 15:31']
Hmm, I disagree. It is handled perfectly and the line "I never miss" is wonderful, bitter sarcastic and to the point. He doesn

[PrinceKamalKhan]

It's a clunky scene, ruined by poor acting and an overweight sensibility. It could have been brilliant, but here's what bugs me:

-Bond isn't cold enough. Yeah, you heard me. Bond, having been betrayed by this absolutely detestable female, wouldn't be so reluctant to kill her. Bond's desperation when he shouts "CALL HIM OFF!" is just so out of character. Bond would have long turned from any feelings of love to bitter resentment. There should have been no reiteration of "CALL HIM OFF!!!" - instead, Bond should just have said, "I won't ask again" and have left it at that with an ice-cold glare.

-I hate how Bond leans over her body, to boot - she's dead, and that's that. He's not going to mourn the loss of a baddie, for crying out loud, especially one that stabbed him in the back and was torturing him a few minutes earlier.

-"I never miss" is terribly clunky. Bond should have stayed silent, just standing there for a second, resenting what he had to do - but then just turning his back on her. Delivering some sort of quip saps a lot of the dramatic power of the moment.

-M appearing and looking so moved is just a little too melodramatic for my tastes. I'd have removed her capture entirely from the storyline of the film - it's just too overwrought.

Good points, Harmsway. I think that's a major reason TWINE as a whole doesn't do it for me. I have trouble believing Connery's Bond would have ever fallen for Elektra or put up with her actions and behavior for a moment. I'll take Bond and Fiona in Thunderball over Bond and Elektra anyday. As much as Die Another Day gets dumped on, Bond's handling of that film's bad girl in Miranda Frost is infinitely superior to TWINE's, i.e. no pretensions of a "deep love story" and Bond's complete lack of hesitation in trying to execute her when he learns of her villainy.

[tambourineman]

I too

[RazorBlade]

It's a clunky scene, ruined by poor acting and an overweight sensibility. It could have been brilliant, but here's what bugs me:

-Bond isn't cold enough. Yeah, you heard me. Bond, having been betrayed by this absolutely detestable female, wouldn't be so reluctant to kill her. Bond's desperation when he shouts "CALL HIM OFF!" is just so out of character. Bond would have long turned from any feelings of love to bitter resentment. There should have been no reiteration of "CALL HIM OFF!!!" - instead, Bond should just have said, "I won't ask again" and have left it at that with an ice-cold glare.

-I hate how Bond leans over her body, to boot - she's dead, and that's that. He's not going to mourn the loss of a baddie, for crying out loud, especially one that stabbed him in the back and was torturing him a few minutes earlier.

-"I never miss" is terribly clunky. Bond should have stayed silent, just standing there for a second, resenting what he had to do - but then just turning his back on her. Delivering some sort of quip saps a lot of the dramatic power of the moment.

-M appearing and looking so moved is just a little too melodramatic for my tastes. I'd have removed her capture entirely from the storyline of the film - it's just too overwrought.

Good points, Harmsway. I think that's a major reason TWINE as a whole doesn't do it for me. I have trouble believing Connery's Bond would have ever fallen for Elektra or put up with her actions and behavior for a moment. I'll take Bond and Fiona in Thunderball over Bond and Elektra anyday. As much as Die Another Day gets dumped on, Bond's handling of that film's bad girl in Miranda Frost is infinitely superior to TWINE's, i.e. no pretensions of a "deep love story" and Bond's complete lack of hesitation in trying to execute her when he learns of her villainy.

Me three as the Stooges used to say. I do love that Sophis Marceau though.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

It's a clunky scene, ruined by poor acting and an overweight sensibility. It could have been brilliant, but here's what bugs me:

-Bond isn't cold enough. Yeah, you heard me. Bond, having been betrayed by this absolutely detestable female, wouldn't be so reluctant to kill her. Bond's desperation when he shouts "CALL HIM OFF!" is just so out of character. Bond would have long turned from any feelings of love to bitter resentment. There should have been no reiteration of "CALL HIM OFF!!!" - instead, Bond should just have said, "I won't ask again" and have left it at that with an ice-cold glare.

-I hate how Bond leans over her body, to boot - she's dead, and that's that. He's not going to mourn the loss of a baddie, for crying out loud, especially one that stabbed him in the back and was torturing him a few minutes earlier.

-"I never miss" is terribly clunky. Bond should have stayed silent, just standing there for a second, resenting what he had to do - but then just turning his back on her. Delivering some sort of quip saps a lot of the dramatic power of the moment.

-M appearing and looking so moved is just a little too melodramatic for my tastes. I'd have removed her capture entirely from the storyline of the film - it's just too overwrought.

Good points, Harmsway. I think that's a major reason TWINE as a whole doesn't do it for me. I have trouble believing Connery's Bond would have ever fallen for Elektra or put up with her actions and behavior for a moment. I'll take Bond and Fiona in Thunderball over Bond and Elektra anyday. As much as Die Another Day gets dumped on, Bond's handling of that film's bad girl in Miranda Frost is infinitely superior to TWINE's, i.e. no pretensions of a "deep love story" and Bond's complete lack of hesitation in trying to execute her when he learns of her villainy.

Me three as the Stooges used to say. I do love that Sophis Marceau though.

I've liked Mlle. Marceau ever since I first saw her in Braveheart, a film I greatly love. I'm very glad she appeared in a Bond film. I just wished her appearance could have been in one with a better script.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Bond shoots Elektra. Without saying a word, he bends over her body (like he does in the movie). M enters. Bond looks at M with a look that says it all- "I don't like what this job makes me do, but I have to do it." Bond jumps off the balcony to save the day.

That would've just been one more hammy 'peeling back the layers' Pierce moment. M and Bond were too buddy buddy as it was in TND and TWINE.

I never miss has sufficient double meaning. One of my favorite one-liners actually...

[dodge]

It's a clunky scene, ruined by poor acting and an overweight sensibility. It could have been brilliant, but here's what bugs me:

-Bond isn't cold enough. Yeah, you heard me. Bond, having been betrayed by this absolutely detestable female, wouldn't be so reluctant to kill her. Bond's desperation when he shouts "CALL HIM OFF!" is just so out of character. Bond would have long turned from any feelings of love to bitter resentment. There should have been no reiteration of "CALL HIM OFF!!!" - instead, Bond should just have said, "I won't ask again" and have left it at that with an ice-cold glare.

-I hate how Bond leans over her body, to boot - she's dead, and that's that. He's not going to mourn the loss of a baddie, for crying out loud, especially one that stabbed him in the back and was torturing him a few minutes earlier.

-"I never miss" is terribly clunky. Bond should have stayed silent, just standing there for a second, resenting what he had to do - but then just turning his back on her. Delivering some sort of quip saps a lot of the dramatic power of the moment.

-M appearing and looking so moved is just a little too melodramatic for my tastes. I'd have removed her capture entirely from the storyline of the film - it's just too overwrought.

Good points, Harmsway. I think that's a major reason TWINE as a whole doesn't do it for me. I have trouble believing Connery's Bond would have ever fallen for Elektra or put up with her actions and behavior for a moment. I'll take Bond and Fiona in Thunderball over Bond and Elektra anyday. As much as Die Another Day gets dumped on, Bond's handling of that film's bad girl in Miranda Frost is infinitely superior to TWINE's, i.e. no pretensions of a "deep love story" and Bond's complete lack of hesitation in trying to execute her when he learns of her villainy.

Me three as the Stooges used to say. I do love that Sophis Marceau though.

I've liked Mlle. Marceau ever since I first saw her in Braveheart, a film I greatly love. I'm very glad she appeared in a Bond film. I just wished her appearance could have been in one with a better script.

I quite agree. She's an amazing actress with real depth. Purvis and Wade wasted her far more cruelly than James Bond did.

[hcmv007]

I thought it was his best moment as Bond-coldly killing an unarmed woman who he had feelings for. Just my opinion.

[Judo chop]

It is one of Pierce's better moments, and one that may have been very powerful in another actor's film. Unfortunately I can't take the scene out of context - "context" being the rest of the film...

The 75 minutes leading up to that point are so joyless and dreary (and polluted with Christmas Jones) that by the time Elektra's death scene comes around, all concern for either Elektra or even Bond has been drained from me. One could say that it's Renard's character that I most identify with by the end of the film for the fact that we are both without feeling and have become very frustrated by it.

I've read through this entire thread and there was a poster who nailed in a sentence (or two) the problem that I have with the Pierce era. I can't recall enough to quote, but to paraphrase:

There were many, many cool Brosnan Bond moments scattered about his films (GE - flinch at bullet ricochet or TND - chuckles in the BMW, etc...). If they had built the films around these more light-hearted bits which Brosnan handled very very well, the whole era could have been something special and possibly something worthy of calling "Brosnanesqe".

Instead the film makers tried to Daltonize and complicate the films with unnecessary layer-peeling drama and VERY random emotional plug-ins which resulted in a mish-mash of Bond's character and severe whiplash of my brain's entertainment lobe.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

It is one of Pierce's better moments, and one that may have been very powerful in another actor's film. Unfortunately I can't take the scene out of context - "context" being the rest of the film...

The 75 minutes leading up to that point are so joyless and dreary (and polluted with Christmas Jones) that by the time Elektra's death scene comes around, all concern for either Elektra or even Bond has been drained from me. One could say that it's Renard's character that I most identify with by the end of the film for the fact that we are both without feeling and have become very frustrated by it.

I've read through this entire thread and there was a poster who nailed in a sentence (or two) the problem that I have with the Pierce era. I can't recall enough to quote, but to paraphrase:

There were many, many cool Brosnan Bond moments scattered about his films (GE - flinch at bullet ricochet or TND - chuckles in the BMW, etc...). If they had built the films around these more light-hearted bits which Brosnan handled very very well, the whole era could have been something special and possibly something worthy of calling "Brosnanesqe".

Instead the film makers tried to Daltonize and complicate the films with unnecessary layer-peeling drama and VERY random emotional plug-ins which resulted in a mish-mash of Bond's character and severe whiplash of my brain's entertainment lobe.

I wouldn't call TWINE a "Dalton film with another actor". It was definitely Brosnan's. Only Brosnan would get weepy over a girl he's never meet via a computer screen. Compare Brosnan's pursuit of Elektra to Dalton's more cooler and less sentimental pursuit of Kara in TLD. No contest IMHO. GE, CR, OHMSS, FYEO could be called "Daltonian" but not the soap operatic TWINE.

[Judo chop]

I wouldn't call TWINE a "Dalton film with another actor". It was definitely Brosnan's. Only Brosnan would get weepy over a girl he's never meet via a computer screen. Compare Brosnan's pursuit of Elektra to Dalton's more cooler and less sentimental pursuit of Kara in TLD. No contest IMHO. GE, CR, OHMSS, FYEO could be called "Daltonian" but not the soap operatic TWINE.

I guess I was incorrect to invoke Dalton's name, although I never exactly said that TWINE was a Dalton-type film with another actor.

Sometimes the Brosnan drama has a Dalton flavor to me (beach scene in GE comes to mind) and sometimes, as you said, it's just unnecessary soap-operaing (if one can accept 'soap-operaing' as a word) and unique to Brosnan's Bond.

Whatever the best way to describe the 'other side' of Brosnan's Bond is, I'm not sure. But I know I find that it is distracting, inconsistent and more often than not serves as an anchor to pull Brosnan's films down rather than to give his Bond depth of character.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

I wouldn't call TWINE a "Dalton film with another actor". It was definitely Brosnan's. Only Brosnan would get weepy over a girl he's never meet via a computer screen. Compare Brosnan's pursuit of Elektra to Dalton's more cooler and less sentimental pursuit of Kara in TLD. No contest IMHO. GE, CR, OHMSS, FYEO could be called "Daltonian" but not the soap operatic TWINE.

I guess I was incorrect to invoke Dalton's name, although I never exactly said that TWINE was a Dalton-type film with another actor.

Sometimes the Brosnan drama has a Dalton flavor to me (beach scene in GE comes to mind) and sometimes, as you said, it's just unnecessary soap-operaing (if one can accept 'soap-operaing' as a word) and unique to Brosnan's Bond.

Whatever the best way to describe the 'other side' of Brosnan's Bond is, I'm not sure. But I know I find that it is distracting, inconsistent and more often than not serves as an anchor to pull Brosnan's films down rather than to give his Bond depth of character.

I agree. This may not have been Brosnan's fault(at least not totally) since he was just doing what the scripts said to do. But maybe in the 1990s MGM/EON thought this aspect would make Bond appeal more to female viewers. However, I think I read on a Bond website (possibly this one) that TWINE featured John Gardner's Bond rather than Fleming's Bond. I don't hate TWINE. It's OK but definitely the weakest of the Brosnan Bond films. The recent and vaguely similar CR and the way the script and the relationship between Bond & Vesper was handled makes the story of TWINE really shallow by comparison.