86 replies to this topic

[DanMan]

I hope it's as graphic as possible within the boundaries of the PG-13 rating. It'll have people talking for a while.

[Harmsway]

I hope it's as graphic as possible within the boundaries of the PG-13 rating. It'll have people talking for a while.

Agreed. I'm really interested about how this'll be filmed - Campbell has offered some suggestions, but even he seems really unsure.

[DanMan]

Yeah, if done right it could become one of the most talked about scenes of the year and become classic years down the road.

[Four Aces]

I'd like to see it get more into the "R" category.

4A

[Harmsway]

I'd like to see it get more into the "R" category.

4A

I have no interest in an R-rated Bond film.

[Qwerty]

I hope it's as graphic as possible within the boundaries of the PG-13 rating. It'll have people talking for a while.

Have to imagine it will be for what that scene requires.

[FelixLeiter]

Double Oh Agent's recommendation seems to be the order of the day. A great adaptation. A little tweaking here or there, maybe, but nothing to split hairs over. All in all, a very good adaptation. Well done Double Oh Agent. For those in doubt, this scene is absolutely necessary, the more faithful to the book, the better (or, in Bond's case, worse...MUCH worse....). The point of this outing for Campbell and Bond seems to be to capture the Fleming spirit, based on what I've read and heard so far about CR. This scene is what drives the novel in Fleming's book. Of course, this is just my humble opinion. I suppose as long as there is a torture scene that holds the same significance to the plot, then I would be able to handle that. I would just prefer Fleming's version, just so the audience is able to understand the realism of the situation. The scene itself is very logical. You have a male hostage, you have a goal, you don't care how you reach that goal, what could make more sense than affecting the man where he is most vulnerable. Please, don't interpret me wrong, I'm not really sick, I'm just saying that considering that possibility, I'm very surprised that Casino Royale is the only place in the movie world where we will see this torture (I may be mistaken on this point, if so, please correct me.) If there was any way to drive home the point that you're after something, that's the way to show it. Whether I am right or wrong in my opinion, I leave to you, the reader. I await your response.
I remain, The Man From the CIA,
Felix Leiter

[FelixLeiter]

Four Aces brings an excellent point to my attention. The idea of Bond being able to move to an R rating is intriguing. The Bond books that EON now seem to be trying to follow(or maybe I'm jumping the gun with that statement) lean much more toward an R rating. The sexual sections of the book, which usually are brief, are still very, well, we'll use the word "descriptive" for the moment. The brief train scene with and Solitaire in Live and Let Die would be a good example. And as for the action that lay within the books, an R rating would help to give the full detail of the action. My example here would be the train scene finale from Diamonds Are Forever (I seem to have trains on the brain this evening). You can't show that keyhole between the eyes with a PG-13 rating.
Also, and this is only my opinion, I am of the belief that an R rating and tapping the potential that goes with it could attract a new type of audience. Fans of shows that are looked upon as "real"(the Sopranos, the Shield, others along the same lines) would be attracted to this more down to earth, more "real" Bond. I am by no means saying that the current Bonds are weak, I am simply suggesting that it is easier to see the true spirit of Bond, the everyman, that Fleming created.
I strongly invite responses to this topic, as I am interested in what everyone thinks. I hope to hear from everyone soon.
Yours Truly, The hawkfaced Texan,
Felix Leiter

[Streetworker]

Daniel Craig's torture in Elizabeth is brutal, harrowing and graphic - except you don't actually see anything because it's all in the direction and Craig's performance.

To my mind, CR's biggest commercial problem is the SPECTRE at the feast: Pierce Brosnan. Let's not get into a discussion here about whether or not he should have been hired for CR or was/wasn't badly treated. But it remains a fact that he was a very popular Bond with the general population and they have a perception, rightly or wrongly, that he's been wronged. I believe this poses a threat to the movie, although whether it actually translates into lower box office returns remains to be seen. I hope not because, although I firmly belong in the camp that believes Brosnan deserved a fifth if he wanted to do it, time has now moved on and it would be desperately unfair if audiences took it out on Craig for something that wasn't his doing.

[hrabb04]

I have a feeling that the ghost of Brosnan will bite this picture in the butt. He was very, very popular, and the average moviegoer who thought Brosnan was God as Bond is bound to feel cheated. [mod edit] Sony's promotional dept has its work cut out for it.

[Loomis]

If the torture scene is going to take up any length of screentime, whether graphic or not, I reckon CASINO ROYALE will get a 15 certificate in the UK. The British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) seems very concerned about any kind of "imitable" violence. From the Board's Wikipedia page:

The issue of imitable techniques is one that does not seem to figure especially highly in the censorship systems of most other countries, but in the UK numerous minor cuts have been made, primarily to films whose distributors want a PG or 12A certificate, to supposedly imitable techniques.

I mean, the BBFC gave MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE II a 15 certificate (no idea why, personally - can anyone explain that one?), cut Xenia's headbutt from GOLDENEYE, and another headbutt from STAR WARS EPISODE II: ATTACK OF THE CLONES.... I think CR is pretty much guaranteed a 15 over here, unless Campbell and co. are going to bypass the torture scene or confine it to just a couple of shots, which I doubt they're going to do.

[Harmsway]

I mean, the BBFC gave MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE II a 15 certificate (no idea why, personally - can anyone explain that one?), cut Xenia's headbutt from GOLDENEYE, and another headbutt from STAR WARS EPISODE II: ATTACK OF THE CLONES.... I think CR is pretty much guaranteed a 15 over here, unless Campbell and co. are going to bypass the torture scene or confine it to just a couple of shots, which I doubt they're going to do.

Agreed.

[Flash1087]

I'm sorry, I'm a little unfamiliar with British ratings; where does a 15 certificate fall? How far away is it from your 'worst' rating?

[blueman]

I don't think there's much of a movie-going public who thinks Brosnan is God, or that he was even slighted by not being signed for CR. But that's just my "perception."

EON has handled a Bond actor change before, I imagine they know how to do it (even if they are replacing "God").

[Harmsway]

I don't think there's much of a movie-going public who thinks Brosnan is God, or that he was even slighted by not being signed for CR.  But that's just my "perception."

EON has handled a Bond actor change before, I imagine they know how to do it (even if they are replacing "God").

Totally agreed.

[1q2w3e4r]

Everyone should wait until the film to pass judgement on it. I think they'll be able to manage it with taste and let the audience know the score. They got away with the scene in DAD and over the pre-title scene. So in a way they've already warmed the audience up to it.

Having watched all the films develop over the net from late '96 I can safely say things are never as bad as the fans and community make them out to be

Mister * I totally agree with your idea, hopefully they'll play it out that way.

[Gabriel]

The easiest way to get away from the "blood and guts" of the carpet beater would be to have Bond hung up in a bathroom under a shower and have the bad guys apply live electrodes to his genitals . . .

[David Schofield]

Beat the sh eye t out of Craig's goolies. Give the anti-Craig brigade some satisfaction. "Carpet beater would have bounced off Brozza's balls."

[Flash1087]

Beat the sh eye t out of Craig's goolies. Give the anti-Craig brigade some satisfaction. "Carpet beater would have bounced off Brozza's balls."

"Connery would've, like, taken the carpet beater and knocked someone out with it, and then say something totally funny."

[Scorpion]

[quote name='dinovelvet' date='24 October 2005 - 01:13'][quote name='Mister Asterix' date='23 October 2005 - 18:07'][mra]I

[killkenny kid]

For some reason, I think this is the one thing Campbell will handle well. He knows that this scence can make or break the movie with hardcore Bond fan. And the general public.

[Mr Malcolm]

I agree that the torture scene will be controversial and difficult to film, but there's no way of bypassing it. It's such a pivotal scene in the book, that unless the story is changed completely (which doesn't sound like it will happen; nor should it), it'll have to stay in. It also shouldn't be toned down or shortened too much; you can't trivialise having someone's nads being mashed with a carpet beater!
I quite like both Double Oh Agent's and Mr Asterix's takes on the scene, especially Mr Asterix's adding of a sexual angle; it makes it that much more disturbing (in a good way). The way I would do it, though, would be to show Bond getting hit a few times first, then when Le Chifre really goes to work, edit the scene in a similar way to the Psycho shower scene; there, although you didn't actually see anything, you came away with the impression that you had. And we'd have to see a patch of blood on the floor between Bond's legs.
Then, as the scene goes on, I'd maybe dim the sound gradually, as Bond slowly loses consciousness. I'm loathe to say 'musical montage', since that could conjure up some rather cheesy mental images, but if some appropriate music could be written, I think it could work quite well. Or just leave the music out all together, and just gradually muffle the sound.
Inicdentally, I'm no film director, so don't be too mean if you think that's a bad idea!

[David Schofield]

Beat the sh eye t out of Craig's goolies. Give the anti-Craig brigade some satisfaction. "Carpet beater would have bounced off Brozza's balls."

"Connery would've, like, taken the carpet beater and knocked someone out with it, and then say something totally funny."

"Just dusted him down."

[Flash1087]

Beat the sh eye t out of Craig's goolies. Give the anti-Craig brigade some satisfaction. "Carpet beater would have bounced off Brozza's balls."

"Connery would've, like, taken the carpet beater and knocked someone out with it, and then say something totally funny."

"Just dusted him down."

hahahahahahaha! Perfect.

[Skudor]

With the cinema rating they are aiming for I think it's a foregone conclusion that the scene won't be anything like as brutal and graphic as we'd like. What I hope, and what we should campaign for, is that the DVDs will allow us a "director's" cut that includes the brutish horror of the book.

[Trident]

Why not show only LeChiffre? Camera is on him showing his clinical and slightly bored gaze at Bond. Then he starts beating. Slowly at first. Audience hears Bond grunting. Then LeChiffre asks Bond again for the whereabouts of the money. And continues to beat after Bond stays quiet. Then we hear Bond grunt louder with the next beat. Then louder. And so on until Bond screams at top volume of his voice. In the process we see LeChiffre beating with more and more force and gradually working up a sweat. And while he beats harder he gradually looses his calmness and gets into a frenzy showing his real state of mind which is utter desperation and hate for not being able to break this stupid nuisance of an enemy agent. That might give the audience an idea of what the torture is about for Bond while the whole brutality of it is still off the screen.

[Gabriel]

Of course there's also the issue of the scarification of Bond's hand. It's something that could be referenced in subsequent films.

Edited by Gabriel, 02 November 2005 - 12:49 AM.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Of course there's also the issue of the scarification of Bond's hand. It's something that could be an issue in subsequent films.

Not really...it's mentioned in LALD that he gets a skin graft to cover it up completely.

[Forever007]

I'll bet Campbell will do a side shot of Craig nude in the chair of pain, with the arms covering the sensitive areas. He'll set up the torture through descriptive dialouge witha glimpse of the contraction. When the torture begins they will do a closeup on Craig's face and pan back slowly away from the chair so the last second or two you can see the carpet beater striking under the chair. Like the old Hitchcock films it can be very difficult to watch without actually seeing any direct gore or nudity.

[GreggAllinson]

I will be utterly astonished if the torture scene makes it into the film largely intact. Despite the promises of "back to basics" and a "grittier" Bond, I still stand confidently by my prediction that ultimately, the Casino Royale film will revolve around Le Chiffre's plot to destroy Paris with his orbital space laser.