CR's biggest commercial problem? (SPOILER)
#1
Posted 23 October 2005 - 12:21 PM
*Drumroll*
The torture scene.
Having just re-read the book, it strikes me an exceptionally brutal episode. It's not just Bond being slapped about a bit to make him sing. Now, it would be more than possible to shoot and edit it in such a way as to keep the blood and gore (and, of course, the balls) outside the frame, but even then I can't see the film qualifying for a 12 (or 12A, or whatever it is these days) certificate - it'd be a 15, at least. The concept of it, though:
Would audiences - even with a deliberately "gritty", "back-to-basics" Bond flick - accept the spectacle of James Bond being tortured? And over a fairly lengthy period of screentime, too?
Obviously, we've seen 007 getting the treatment from Scorpion Girl and co. in DIE ANOTHER DAY, although those are just brief images in an opening credits sequence dominated by women made of ice giving off flashes of lightning or whatever it is, so the impact is minimal. Neither is the sight of Bond in Elektra's chair especially "shocking". But the torture scene in CR (not that I know how it'll be done, obviously) seems a whole different ballgame (ho ho). It's guaranteed to be written about by all and sundry as "the most horrifying torture scene in cinema since RESERVOIR DOGS".
Then again, I don't see how an even relatively faithful adaptation of CR would be possible without it.
Thoughts?
#2
Posted 23 October 2005 - 12:28 PM
Suppose they could change the nature of the torture sequence.
Have him, I don't know, beaten about somewhere other than his "wedding tackle", as Austin Powers once put it.
Be very disappointing if they changed it; Casino Royale is really quite a dark story, and I'm a bit concerned about how much of it will be compromised, despite all this talk of a "darker" and "grittier" film adaptation.
#3
Posted 23 October 2005 - 12:49 PM
#4
Posted 23 October 2005 - 01:49 PM
(Just had a browse through my DVD cabinet and aside from Bond I was hard pressed to find a recent thriller/action movie that wasn't a 15 certificate.)
#5
Posted 23 October 2005 - 02:23 PM
#6
Posted 23 October 2005 - 02:45 PM
I just wonder how "the masses" will take to the sight and sounds of Bond in utter agony during a sequence that's bound to last at least five minutes. I'm not actually advocating that they cut the scene, but I suspect it may be rather too much of a far cry from, say, Moore in THE SPY WHO LOVED ME for Joe Blow's taste.
I think the torture sequence should be done as it is written in the book. It should be done slowly and should be so it seems real and the audience can feel the pain. I hope CR is much more of a darker film. The torture sequnce should go ahead, I mean when was the last time we have seen an horrific torture sequence in a Bond film.
I think the most graphic scene we have seen is probably when Milton Krest gets blown up in the chamber in LTK
The torture seqeunce is the only bit of the film I'm looking forward to.
They should just show Bonds face in severe agony and the carpet beater going down past his face so we the audience will know where it's going.
I think that will be disapointing. For the people who havn't read the book, the audience wouldn't quite know what exactly is happening.
We think Bond is a super human who never dies. Well he his in some perspective. But it isn't very often he gets torchered and we often don't see much of it anyway. This is a fantastic peice of torture and is Flemings most sadistic peice of writing. It should be done properly so the audience can feel of what Bond is feeling. It wants to be graphical and there should be no score to accompany the scene. We want to here the carpet beather and Bond screaming.
#7
Posted 23 October 2005 - 03:06 PM
#8
Posted 23 October 2005 - 04:15 PM
Also, in the 1967 spoof, they did reference the torture scene, however briefly. Sellers is sitting (fully clothed) in a chair with no bottom. Orson Welles jokes (I think) the seat was being repaired. But, I suppose, film goers familiar with the original novel might have winced for a second.
#9
Posted 23 October 2005 - 05:39 PM
One can only imagine the look on parents' faces when they take junior to go see the latest James Bond movie, only to find out that Bond's nadgers get a bloody good walloping with a carpet beater and a logo carved into his hand.
I think it could be done in a POV shot from Bond's perspective without being too excessive or grisly. This way, we would see the open-seated chair, the pile Bond's clothes on the floor, and the carpet beater. I suppose they could even imply the carpet beater being used once or twice while still in Bond's POV, and then just have Bond black out, (or pull the camera back out of his perspective), and play the rest of the scene in a Reservoir Dogs or Pulp Fiction style (hearing the torture, but not seeing anything). Might work, but it's just a question of how dark and gritty they want to make this film.
#10
Posted 23 October 2005 - 05:49 PM
#11
Posted 23 October 2005 - 05:55 PM
I'm sure the torture scenes in DAD will look cheesy by comparison though.I like seeing Bond demoralized and comeback and achieve his vengence.I'd love to see the torture scene in ICEBREAKER done sometimen down the road.
#12
Posted 23 October 2005 - 06:50 PM
The general cinema going public are the ones that have been responsible for making the Bonds into the blockbusters they became (save OHMSS and LTK) and not the 5000 or so posters at CBn.
This public will:
Likely not have read the book in the aggregate; or
Likely could care less about reading the book in the aggregate; or
Likely (if male) have an in-built "being James Bond fantasy" which would preclude them from having to see a hero they'd like to emulate have his balls beaten; or
Likely (if female) will not like the idea of a verile fantasy figure having his balls beaten; or
Likely EXPECT to see some 'fun Bondian entertainment' not OHMSS-or-LTK-type 'grit'.
LOL
Eon LIKELY know ALL of the above and won't want another OHMSS-or-LTK-type box office and, as a result, will likely instruct their employee (Campbell) to keep things "simple".
YOU and a FEW hundred other Fleming fan boys may think you're missing out on the "spirit" of the 1953 book...but the 98 percent of the rest of us who have loved the James Bond MOVIES over the years are the ones Eon and Sony will want to cater to. Guaranteed.
Eon and Sony are in the "entertainment" business...they're not in the business of being "pørnographers of violence".
But I imagine you already knew/know that.
I mean, Casino Royale with it's new lead and unconventional story (an inexperienced cinematic icon, as opposed to the 'worldly' one audiences have come to expect) will be different enough as it is for the public let alone having the public feel even more discomfort.
Mark my words: General audience 'discomfort' will SINK this movie' box-office. Eon and Sony will 100 percent want to avoid making the bulk of their historical and new fan base 'uncomfortable'.
#13
Posted 23 October 2005 - 06:56 PM
#14
Posted 23 October 2005 - 07:02 PM
to my mind the biggest hurdle will be...The torture scene.
I don't see how an even relatively faithful adaptation of CR would be possible without it.
...so to wrap up my thoughts from my previous post:
That hurdle remains only in the minds of a small percentage of Fleming fan boys/geeks.
The biggest hurdle from Eon's and Sony's point of view will be that of a 'successful' transition of the franchise from a 'marketable' Bond to an 'unknown' Bond.
It's as plain and simple as just that.
In fact that will be THE ONLY hurdle for the primary stakeholders (Eon, Sony, the public)
#16
Posted 23 October 2005 - 07:05 PM
Most of the worries in fandom re: CASINO ROYALE seem to focus on Craig ("He's the ugliest man in the world!", "He's not Brosnan!", etc.) and the concept of a "reboot" in which 007 will be just starting out, but to my mind the biggest hurdle will be:
*Drumroll*
The torture scene.
Craig is ugly and the reboot are new worries. How on earth they will adapt a novella with very little action and what action there is pretty unpleasant and unpalatable action to most audiences in this day and age has been a worry since it was first announced they'd be making CASINO ROYALE. We've just forgotten about it in the intervening time. You yourself said on this forum two and a half years ago:
'Bond having his private parts tortured with a carpet beater would be an absolute no-no.'
Does that make you feel old? The thread is here:
http://debrief.comma...wtopic=8578&hl=
Yes, 'fandom' has been saying for years they should make a proper version of this film. Now it's being done, suddenly the problems become clearer. Be careful what you wish for.
(Incidentally, I don't really think this thread need have 'Spoiler' written all over it. Everyone - even those who haven't read the book - knows that Bond gets his balls beaten in Fleming's novel, and it's been referenced thousands of times on this site without spoilers.)
#17
Posted 23 October 2005 - 07:19 PM
I hardly think this is as much in trouble as you think. I think there's more than enough story for a film, and added action sequences don't seem to be a problem. We're going to have a pre-title, something with the assassins (which could easily be altered into something more actiony), and a car chase, and perhaps even more considering there's some globe-hopping involved.Craig is ugly and the reboot are new worries. How on earth they will adapt a novella with very little action and what action there is pretty unpleasant and unpalatable action to most audiences in this day and age has been a worry since it was first announced they'd be making CASINO ROYALE. We've just forgotten about it in the intervening time. You yourself said on this forum two and a half years ago:
'Bond having his private parts tortured with a carpet beater would be an absolute no-no.'
Does that make you feel old? The thread is here:
http://debrief.comma...wtopic=8578&hl=
Yes, 'fandom' has been saying for years they should make a proper version of this film. Now it's being done, suddenly the problems become clearer. Be careful what you wish for.
And I think the torture scene can be done fine in PG-13.
#18
Posted 23 October 2005 - 07:24 PM
But I'm not too bothered about it, especially with Haggis on board. I'm more excited than I've been since GOLDENEYE.
#19
Posted 23 October 2005 - 07:35 PM
That hurdle remains only in the minds of a small percentage of Fleming fan boys/geeks.
I suggest that it could be a pretty big hurdle for audiences to have Bond tortured at all.
How would you do the torture scene, if you were Campbell? Or would you leave it out?
I believe you're skinning the wrong cat.
As i mentioned in my first post, Campbell (being an employee only and as a result upon instruction from his bosses) will handle it 'simply'.
Once again i'll mention it: Eon are NOT nor have EVER BEEN "pørnographers of violence" (a term coined in the English pressin the mid 50s to describe Fleming with respect to the 007 books).
#20
Posted 23 October 2005 - 08:42 PM
Once again i'll mention it: Eon are NOT nor have EVER BEEN "pørnographers of violence" (a term coined in the English pressin the mid 50s to describe Fleming with respect to the 007 books).
Where am I saying that they are? Or that they should be?
Granted, I've written that "I don't see how an even relatively faithful adaptation of CR would be possible without" the torture scene described by Fleming - some kind of adaptation of it, anyway. And the thing is, Campbell recently described the CR script as fairly faithful to the book - the last two-thirds of the book, I think (which includes the torture scene).
But I'm not actually calling for a lengthy and graphic torture scene - just wondering how they'd do one (and it looks as though it'll be there, in some form).
I'd agree that excessive horror would turn off audiences. Even if this going to be "gritty" Bond, it's still Bond, not RESERVOIR DOGS.
YOU and a FEW hundred other Fleming fan boys may think you're missing out on the "spirit" of the 1953 book...but the 98 percent of the rest of us who have loved the James Bond MOVIES over the years are the ones Eon and Sony will want to cater to. Guaranteed.
Agreed. BTW, I neither expect nor want a 100% faithful adaptation of the book, and I reckon the same is true of the "FEW hundred other Fleming fan boys" (not that I consider myself a Fleming fanboy, as such - I like his work, of course, but I've never demanded that the films should follow it all that closely).
#21
Posted 23 October 2005 - 08:49 PM
Most of the worries in fandom re: CASINO ROYALE seem to focus on Craig ("He's the ugliest man in the world!", "He's not Brosnan!", etc.) and the concept of a "reboot" in which 007 will be just starting out, but to my mind the biggest hurdle will be:
*Drumroll*
The torture scene.
Craig is ugly and the reboot are new worries. How on earth they will adapt a novella with very little action and what action there is pretty unpleasant and unpalatable action to most audiences in this day and age has been a worry since it was first announced they'd be making CASINO ROYALE. We've just forgotten about it in the intervening time. You yourself said on this forum two and a half years ago:
'Bond having his private parts tortured with a carpet beater would be an absolute no-no.'
Does that make you feel old? The thread is here:
http://debrief.comma...wtopic=8578&hl=
Talking of the "spirit" of Fleming books, I think I agree with Mister Asterix (from an exchange between us on that old thread):
ME: Mister Asterix, would you really be satisfied with just, I don't know, a villain called Le Chiffre, or a Bond girl called Vesper Lynd, and the name Royale-Les-Eaux cropping up at some point in the film?
MISTER ASTERIX: Maybe. I was quite satisfied with just Blofeld, Japan, Tiger, Dikko, and Kissy. I was quite satisfied with just Scaramanga, Goodnight, and a gun made of gold. But I say 'maybe' because despite huge changes from the books to the films these films stuck with the spirit of the Fleming characters and in many ways the spirit of the Fleming plots. If this spirit was not there then no, I would not be satisfied.
#22
Posted 23 October 2005 - 09:49 PM
It is a concern, though, to an extent, because if you stay faithful to it you'll turn off the wider audience, and if you action it up and tone down the torture, you'll get flack from hardcore fans
What, all five of them?
I can't imagine not doing it closely is a concern to anybody but the producers (as they've shown by doing a restart they actually do seem to care about this stuff); and it's easy to justify changes as Fleming gets less relevant with each passing year. Sure, they'll have the torture scene- they managed it in TWINE; even the Bond in the tubes sequence in Dr No is torture to a certain extent. Indiana Jones gets a little bit in Temple of Doom- the Star Wars guys all get their hands cut off at some point. Kids can be shown some pretty graphic stuff so I don't doubt that there's a way through with beating Bond's balls.
Whether they'll choose that particular method and whether it is interesting enough is the real question- will they go with something a little more flashy and cinematic? As said before, they changed it for the 67 version into something a little more suited to the movie screen, and which wouldn't have been that out of place in a proper Bond movie of the period, Peter O'Toole excepted.
#23
Posted 23 October 2005 - 09:54 PM
#24
Posted 23 October 2005 - 10:09 PM
#25
Posted 23 October 2005 - 10:15 PM
... Well, at least that's how I would do it.
Casino Royale should be fine. If Martin Campbell can pull off the scene while retaining the PG-13 rating, then I trust he will do that. If not, then no scene.
#26
Posted 23 October 2005 - 10:46 PM
Edited by Operation: Thunderball, 23 October 2005 - 10:49 PM.
#27
Posted 23 October 2005 - 11:41 PM
Le Chiffre enters a sparse room ahead of Bond who is being dragged by Basil and The Corsican. He walks to the center of the room where two chairs are set facing each other. One, a big oak chair with red velvet covering and the other, a cane chair with no seat. Beside the big oak chair is a small table with some sort of item lying on it.
Le Chiffre turns to the three men and says: "Take off all his clothes."
The Corsican keeps a gun on Bond as Basil begins roughly stripping 007.
When Bond is naked, Le Chiffre says: "Put him in in the chair."
Cut to Basil forcibly shoving Bond into the cane chair and begin tying him up.
Once Bond is fully restrained, Le Chiffre tells his men to leave them. When the door shuts behind them, Le Chiffre sits in his big chair and nonchalantly rests his hand on the item on the table.
Le Chiffre: "You've cost me a lot of trouble, Mr. Bond. But I'm a forgiving man. If you tell me where you hid the money, I will forget all this happened, but if you insist on being difficult, then I'm going to have to make the rest of your life very painful. What is your decision?"
A weary looking, but determined Bond says: "You'll never find it Le Chiffre and it's only a matter of time before (terrorist organization) catches up with you and they'll do worse to you than you can ever do to me."
Le Chiffre smirks: "Don't be too sure of that Mr. Bond." He then picks up the carpet beater and holds it threateningly in front of Bond's face. "This is a carpet beater. It's used to hit carpets for the purpose of cleaning them. It's a very effective tool and I've found other satisfying uses for it."
Le Chiffre lowers the carpet beater from view and says: "If you do not tell me where my money is, then I'm afraid I will be forced to beat your genitals with this tool until you do, and I assure you, I will take my time doing it."
Putting on a good face, Bond says: "What are you waiting for, Le Chiffre. Let's get this over with."
Cut to a mid-body shot of Le Chiffre sitting. He scowls and suddenly raises his arm holding the carpet beater.
Cut to a close-up of Bond who cries out in pain.
Cut to a close-up of a self-satisfied Le Chiffre. "See Mr. Bond, I told you this was an effective tool. I can promise you, it will only get worse. Now where is my money?"
Cut to close-up of Bond: "Piss-off!"
Cut to close-up of Le Chiffre with total rage on his face and with all the force he can muster raise his arm with the carpet beater. Bond screams and a faint look of pleasure creeps into Le Chiffre's face.
Cut to close-up of Bond and he cries out in pain again from another swat and then slowly fade to black.
Slowly fade back in and to show a sweaty Le Chiffre slapping Bond's face to wake him up.
Cut to close-up of Bond moaning as he slowly regains his senses.
Cut to Le Chiffre who sits down in his chair. In a charming voice, he says: "This is getting tedious, Mr. Bond. Surely, you know you can't hold out forever. No man can take that much punishment. Tell me now where my money is and I promise you, I will end your misery."
Cut to a close-up of a beaten Bond who in his last bit of strength blurts out: "Go to hell Le Chiffre."
Cut to a close-up of an irate Le Chiffre who pauses to briefly collect himself before uttering ruthlessly: "Have it your way. Say goodbye to it, Bond."
Before he can move a third voice says: "Shtop!"
Cut to close-up of an astonished and scared Le Chiffre.
Then proceed with his assassination.
See, you have a torture scene but in no cut is a picture of the carpet beater hitting Bond's gentials shown. It's all implied with arm movement and facial expressions. That is the way to do the scene and still get the PG-13 rating.
#28
Posted 24 October 2005 - 12:22 AM
I think you can do the torture scene without being graphic. Here's how I would do it:
Le Chiffre enters a sparse room ahead of Bond who is being dragged by Basil and The Corsican. He walks to the center of the room where two chairs are set facing each other. One, a big oak chair with red velvet covering and the other, a cane chair with no seat. Beside the big oak chair is a small table with some sort of item lying on it.
Le Chiffre turns to the three men and says: "Take off all his clothes."
The Corsican keeps a gun on Bond as Basil begins roughly stripping 007.
When Bond is naked, Le Chiffre says: "Put him in in the chair."
Cut to Basil forcibly shoving Bond into the cane chair and begin tying him up.
Once Bond is fully restrained, Le Chiffre tells his men to leave them. When the door shuts behind them, Le Chiffre sits in his big chair and nonchalantly rests his hand on the item on the table.
Le Chiffre: "You've cost me a lot of trouble, Mr. Bond. But I'm a forgiving man. If you tell me where you hid the money, I will forget all this happened, but if you insist on being difficult, then I'm going to have to make the rest of your life very painful. What is your decision?"
A weary looking, but determined Bond says: "You'll never find it Le Chiffre and it's only a matter of time before (terrorist organization) catches up with you and they'll do worse to you than you can ever do to me."
Le Chiffre smirks: "Don't be too sure of that Mr. Bond." He then picks up the carpet beater and holds it threateningly in front of Bond's face. "This is a carpet beater. It's used to hit carpets for the purpose of cleaning them. It's a very effective tool and I've found other satisfying uses for it."
Le Chiffre lowers the carpet beater from view and says: "If you do not tell me where my money is, then I'm afraid I will be forced to beat your genitals with this tool until you do, and I assure you, I will take my time doing it."
Putting on a good face, Bond says: "What are you waiting for, Le Chiffre. Let's get this over with."
Cut to a mid-body shot of Le Chiffre sitting. He scowls and suddenly raises his arm holding the carpet beater.
Cut to a close-up of Bond who cries out in pain.
Cut to a close-up of a self-satisfied Le Chiffre. "See Mr. Bond, I told you this was an effective tool. I can promise you, it will only get worse. Now where is my money?"
Cut to close-up of Bond: "Piss-off!"
Cut to close-up of Le Chiffre with total rage on his face and with all the force he can muster raise his arm with the carpet beater. Bond screams and a faint look of pleasure creeps into Le Chiffre's face.
Cut to close-up of Bond and he cries out in pain again from another swat and then slowly fade to black.
Slowly fade back in and to show a sweaty Le Chiffre slapping Bond's face to wake him up.
Cut to close-up of Bond moaning as he slowly regains his senses.
Cut to Le Chiffre who sits down in his chair. In a charming voice, he says: "This is getting tedious, Mr. Bond. Surely, you know you can't hold out forever. No man can take that much punishment. Tell me now where my money is and I promise you, I will end your misery."
Cut to a close-up of a beaten Bond who in his last bit of strength blurts out: "Go to hell Le Chiffre."
Cut to a close-up of an irate Le Chiffre who pauses to briefly collect himself before uttering ruthlessly: "Have it your way. Say goodbye to it, Bond."
Before he can move a third voice says: "Shtop!"
Cut to close-up of an astonished and scared Le Chiffre.
Then proceed with his assassination.
See, you have a torture scene but in no cut is a picture of the carpet beater hitting Bond's gentials shown. It's all implied with arm movement and facial expressions. That is the way to do the scene and still get the PG-13 rating.
Sounds good to me. A very, VERY faithful adaptation. (It's been a few months since I've read CR, but that sounds pretty close to a cut and paste to me - am I right?) I would just like to add to that scene, a camera shot from behind, focusing under the chair between Bonds legs up to the calves, maybe with LeChiffre out of focus in the background, that clearly identifies the pool of blood gathered on the floor...
...because, I DO remember from the book that Fleming describes the blood, and it was the blood that confirmed for me that we weren't just talking about your average, everyday excruciating nutpain, but rather a serious mutilation and the psychological effects thereof. If you don't do the blood, you've just got a sicko Frenchman whacking testies. I think that would be bound to cause more laughs than grimaces from the audience, the latter being what we want our 'grittier' film.
Edited by Judo chop, 24 October 2005 - 12:23 AM.
#29
Posted 24 October 2005 - 01:07 AM
#30
Posted 24 October 2005 - 01:13 AM