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The Dark Knight (2008)


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#61 Harmsway

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 03:31 PM

:) :)

Just got finished watching all the special features on the Begins 2-Disc set, so I'm very eagerly awaiting this now.

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I have finished the special features on Batman `89, and most on Batman Returns and Batman Forever. I am suprised at how self-critical the WB execs are on how dark 'Returns' was and how over the top 'Forever' was. Not your usual studio fluff. I guess Bob Kane asked the WB personally to make the third film a bit lighter. The segments on the 'Forever' DVD will go into more detail, but the main goal was to capture that feel of the late 40's/early 50's comics, on the verge of becoming campy, but still retaining some of the more mysterious elements. Knowing that now, it actually makes the film a little easier to take in.

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Forever is just mediocre. It was B&R that was the awful one...

The best thing about the Forever DVD are the deleted scenes... many of those should have been edited back into the film (aside from the stupid hair salon moment).

#62 hcmv007

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 04:32 PM

I like Batman: The Dark Knight.


Escaltion, I just don't like the sound of that.

#63 Loomis

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 05:20 PM

Cheers, killkenny kid, Lazenby880 and Harmsway. :)

Loomis, as a Batgeek and speaking for myself Batman Begins is the first of an entirely new franchise, with no connection whatsoever to the Burton/Schumacher series. From what I have picked up from the Batman fan community (which is less, admittedly, than Harmsway) the vast majority are of this opinion too; in fact I have not heard/seen anyone who is a Batfan think otherwise.

Begins was designed as such (which I do not think Casino Royale is), blissfully ignoring the previous films (two of which only purported to be about the character) and being far more faithful to its origins, such as having the Waynes killed by Chill instead of the Joker (one of the major problems with Burton's Batman).

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Wait, you don't think CASINO ROYALE will blissfully ignore the previous films and be far more faithful to its origins, too? I mean, I expect we'll have the gunbarrel and The James Bond Theme, but apart from those things, I think we're looking at BOND BEGINS, i.e. the start of an all-new franchise.

Possibly.

#64 DLibrasnow

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 06:28 PM

I finally got around to seeing Begins and was very pleasantly surprised....a very entertaining movie.:)

#65 Lazenby880

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 11:32 PM

Wait, you don't think CASINO ROYALE will blissfully ignore the previous films and be far more faithful to its origins, too? I mean, I expect we'll have the gunbarrel and The James Bond Theme, but apart from those things, I think we're looking at BOND BEGINS, i.e. the start of an all-new franchise.

Possibly.

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It is a difficult one to call, and we will not know for sure until either the producers/Mr Campbell let us know or when Casino Royale opens. Begins, from its early gestation, was the beginning of an entirely new franchise. Has Royale been? Certainly it stars a younger actor, but so did On Her Majesty's Secret Service and it remained part of the existing franchise. The difference, of course, is no reference is made that LazenbyBond is younger than ConneryBond. Obviously, Mr Campbell has suggested that it will be more faithful (how faithful should be interesting) in some respect to the source material with Bond not long a OO, but then it is always being called the 21st Bond film. A bit post-modern really if it is not an entire restart.

In all of the twenty previous Bond films each actor is portraying the same agent: MooreBond mourns Tracy, as does DaltonBond and BrosnanBond, as well as those three being the same agent who faced off Blofeld and Goldfinger in the past. Will CraigBond be in the similar vein? Or will his mission be set before all that, only in a modern setting? I am not sure that would work, so it would really have to either be a continuation of the franchise or a new canon.

However, I very much doubt it will be the latter, they may very well fudge the issue in a Jack Ryan-esque fashion. And who knows, despite all this inebriated late night rambling it could work, and the non-Bond fan audience as well as ourselves may very well lap it up. I hope so, as I think (admittedly with very little basis) that Daniel Craig has the makings of a convincing Bond (and like what I have heard thus far about a more 'back-to-basics' approach etc).

Onto Batman; and the Begins extras are bloody brilliant, particularly the documentary 'Genesis of the Bat' taking a look at some of the comics from which Nolan took inspiration. Moreover, very much looking forward to the Miller/Lee collabaration. :) I have not thus far been able to get it, however would Harmsway (or anyone else) be able to let me know if All Star is as good as it looks/sounds?

Edited by Lazenby880, 24 October 2005 - 11:40 PM.


#66 Harmsway

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 11:40 PM

Onto Batman; and the Begins extras are bloody brilliant, particularly the documentary 'Genesis of the Bat' taking a look at some of the comics from which Nolan took inspiration. Moreover, very much looking forward to the Miller/Lee collabaration. :)

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The Miller/Lee collaboration is already coming out, the first two issues have been released. Frankly, IMO, it's a piece of trash that deserves to be forgotten by time, and most of the reviews agree with me.

#67 Lazenby880

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 11:49 PM

You got there Harmsway before I edited. :) Cheers for the reply. Frankly, I have had plenty of opportunities to find the July and September issues in Forbidden Planet but I learnt from Hush to waita bit and buy a few issues together (and then, of course, purchase the graphic novel). Less cliff-hangers that way.

A bit concerned that you say it is piffle, I have been excited about this for quite a while. Jim Lee's incredible artwork, Frank Miller's largely unbeatable writing and an origin story looked as if All Star might be up there with the greats of Batman graphic novels such as Miller's 80s work, The Killing Joke, The Long Halloween and others. Deliberately avoided reviews for fear of spoliers, but I am a bit deflated now. :) Still, once number three comes out here I'll buy them and see if they do liveup to expectation.

#68 Harmsway

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 11:51 PM

A bit concerned that you say it is piffle, I have been excited about this for quite a while. Jim Lee's incredible artwork, Frank Miller's largely unbeatable writing and an origin story looked as if All Star might be up there with the greats of Batman graphic novels such as Miller's 80s work, The Killing Joke, The Long Halloween and others. Deliberately avoided reviews for fear of spoliers, but I am a bit deflated now. :) Still, once number three comes out here I'll buy them and see if they do liveup to expectation.

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IMO it's just slightly better than Miller's atrocious The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

The big thing is that the character of Batman is just WAY off, and the changes he makes to continuity is awful. Jim Lee's artwork, as ever, is nice, but unfortunately, it can't make up for the awful script that Miller has written.

And even those who like it thus far wouldn't put it in the same category as The Killing Joke, The Long Halloween, Batman: Year One, or any of the great hallmark stories.

To be honest, I think Miller has really gone downhill. I'm anxious to see what his new Sin City story will be like... but judging from his recent work, it'll be totally uninspiring.

#69 Lazenby880

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 12:04 AM

You make a very good point. The Dark Knight Strikes Again, while not dire, was in no way comparable to Year One or The Dark Knight Returns. I have been probably deluding myself in the hope that All Star Batman and Robin would mark a return to his previous form.

The other recent arc, Hush, I would not consider to be a 'classic' as it did feel at times like a conveyer belt of baddies with a story that was not quite iconic enough, however I was nevertheless a big fan. Where it does stand very well is of course in Mr Lee's seminal artwork. I really do want to get some of his Hush artwork blown up and stuck on my walls.

Even if All Star isn't a classic at least I'll have the pretty pictures to look at. :)

Edited by Lazenby880, 25 October 2005 - 12:07 AM.


#70 Harmsway

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 12:08 AM

You make a very good point. The Dark Knight Strikes Again, while not dire, was in no way comparable to Year One or The Dark Knight Returns. I have been probably deluding myself in the hope that All Star Batman and Robin would mark a return to his previous form.

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I thought The Dark Knight Strikes Again was QUITE dire, and easily one of the worst things ever to bear the name Batman. The story was muddled and uninspiring (and frequently stupid, as well), the artwork was really, really bad, and what Miller did with Dick Grayson was inexcusable.

#71 Harmsway

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 12:10 AM

Hush, on the other hand, was a genuinely fun ride. Not a classic, by any means, but a very good "best of the villain's gallery"-style story with some very nice artwork. What I'm really looking forward to is Jeph Loeb's future follow-up dealing with the restored Harvey Dent story thread.

#72 Loomis

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 11:37 AM

Wait, you don't think CASINO ROYALE will blissfully ignore the previous films and be far more faithful to its origins, too? I mean, I expect we'll have the gunbarrel and The James Bond Theme, but apart from those things, I think we're looking at BOND BEGINS, i.e. the start of an all-new franchise.

Possibly.

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It is a difficult one to call, and we will not know for sure until either the producers/Mr Campbell let us know or when Casino Royale opens. Begins, from its early gestation, was the beginning of an entirely new franchise.

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Yes, with an entirely new lineup of talent in front of and behind the camera (at least, I think so). Whereas, with CASINO ROYALE, we have the return of Purvis and Wade, Campbell, Meheux, Arnold, Broccoli and Wilson (obviously), and no doubt plenty of other people whose names have cropped up in the credits of Bond films over the years. Also, it seems unthinkable that CR will lack the gunbarrel opening and The James Bond Theme, which would further tie it in with the films DR. NO - DIE ANOTHER DAY.

OTOH, if, when CR opened, Broccoli, Wilson and co. were to go to great pains to explain to the media that CR was intended as the start of an all-new series, I guess we'd all fall in with that.

#73 Gabe Vieira

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 04:39 PM

Okay, that's enough with all that intelligent talk. :) New subject. I'm working on a short summary for an idea I have about the Batman sequel. The hardest part is trying to come up with an actual name for the Joker. Right now I'm working with the name "Adrian Vincentte" for the Joker. It sounds like a Joker-esk name. What would you named the Joker?

#74 Qwerty

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 05:41 PM

Nolan will only do a trilogy, and it seems that the original cast only has the intention of staying if Nolan does. So that's that.

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:)

Wish it was more than just a trilogy with him...

#75 Harmsway

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 07:58 PM

[quote name='Gabe Vieira' date='25 October 2005 - 11:39']Okay, that's enough with all that intelligent talk.

#76 Gabe Vieira

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 08:31 PM

[quote name='Harmsway' date='25 October 2005 - 16:58'][quote name='Gabe Vieira' date='25 October 2005 - 11:39']Okay, that's enough with all that intelligent talk.

#77 Harmsway

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 08:42 PM

Regarding the Joker's famous face: my origin of the Joker's smile is similar to that of a comic book artist's. It was never actually in a Batman comic book, but he did an exclusive concept art piece for a website a while back, and the image has stuck with me ever since. It is VERY gruesome and could NEVER be put on film. Well, maybe I shouldn't say never, but it comes really close.

And I should say that my Joker is based on Lachy Hulme. It's almost "retarded" how perfect he is for the role.

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You mean this one:

Posted Image

Personally, I HATE that image. It misses everything that's great about the Joker and turns him into a boring, crazy person. That self-scarred smile? Ugh.

Where is the classiness of the Joker? The brilliance? The Joker is supposed to be a witty, brilliant genius with a flair for style. There's none of that there. I mean, I don't want a Joker in a purple suit for the movie at all. But that THING (I really can't call it the Joker), isn't what I'm looking for.

#78 Gabe Vieira

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 08:49 PM

Yeah, that's the one. But in my story, the Joker didn't do it to himself, and the smile is really the basis for most of the story. I've said too much.

#79 Harmsway

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 08:49 PM

I want something like this:

Posted Image

#80 Harmsway

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 12:17 AM

Some further news (from Batman-on-Film, whose sources during Begins were outstanding, and so I'm trusting them on this):

- Nolan is committed to one more film, but would like to make 3 total as the story from 2 continues into 3.

- Nolan may flesh out the script on his own (if Goyer's other projects are too time consuming), or he may bring in another writer to work with him on it.

- Shooting back-to-back has been discussed, but no "OK" on that from Nolan. We should hear more one way or another once THE PRESTIGE is in the can.

#81 Moonraker

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 12:52 AM

First off, my top choice for the Joker is Willem Dafoe(which most likely won't happen but I can still dream)

Secondly, they can some up Jokers origin in the first of the movie with it being justlike the begining of The Killing Joke with the Joker. and still. And I have a perfect idea for the ending if anyone wants to here(PM me). I also think the love interest for this film and the third should be Selina Kyle(pre-Catwoman) just an idea.

Also Batman Escalation is a great title.

#82 Harmsway

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 01:00 AM

First off, my top choice for the Joker is Willem Dafoe(which most likely won't happen but I can still dream)

Secondly, they can some up Jokers origin in the first of the movie with it being justlike the begining of The Killing Joke with the Joker. and still. And I have a perfect idea for the ending if anyone wants to here(PM me). I also think the love interest for this film and the third should be Selina Kyle(pre-Catwoman) just an idea.

Also Batman Escalation is a great title.

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Yeah, Willem's definitely not happening. But again, as stated earlier, the Joker is having no origin in BATMAN ESCALATION and will just appear on the scene (as he did in his original appearance in the comics).

While THE KILLING JOKE is often cited as the definitive origin, it's also worth noting that the Joker has been given a countless number of origins in the comic series, and that none of them is considered definitive (even the Joker, within THE KILLING JOKE, says that his memory fluctuates on where he came from - he says he remembers it sometimes one way, sometimes another). I think THE KILLING JOKE is a great story, but not necessarily a great Joker story, if you know what I mean. I don't really like feeling sorry for the Joker. And I also dislike the suggestion that Batman is every bit as crazy as the people he brings in (which, thankfully, the movie didn't support at all).

Frankly, I think Catwoman may not have a place in Nolan's Batman series, unless she's really reinvented (and I can't even fathom where they'd fit her in with all the drama coming up ahead). She's definitely not in BATMAN ESCALATION, and I doubt she'll be in part III with all that has to go down there.

Frankly, a girl running around in a cat-suit just will look out of place in the world Nolan has set up. I love the character a LOT, and I'll miss her, but personally, I can't see her working unless transformed. Perhaps she could be a catburglar with nighvision glasses that give her cat-like eyes, and be called The Cat. A thought. Anything, however, like Pfeifer's Catwoman (which was excellent anyway, and shouldn't be repeated in a similar manner) won't work.

#83 Gabe Vieira

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:26 AM

I want something like this:

Posted Image

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Okay. Wow. Now you got me there! I love that! The black on white is awesome. Genuinely creepy. In my story, the first time that Batman meets the Joker, the Joker is dressed in an ALL white tux. Imagine THAT Joker in an all white tux. I think that would look so cool. Maybe his hair could be a little longer, but that is a great pic, Harmsway. Where did you find that?

#84 Harmsway

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:33 AM

Okay. Wow. Now you got me there! I love that! The black on white is awesome. Genuinely creepy. In my story, the first time that Batman meets the Joker, the Joker is dressed in an ALL white tux. Imagine THAT Joker in an all white tux. I think that would look so cool. Maybe his hair could be a little longer, but that is a great pic, Harmsway. Where did you find that?

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Dressed in an all-white tux, huh? That's cool, but I personally think a black tux with a white vest/white shirt/white tie underneath would be spectacular looking (Alex Ross gave the Joker this outfit in the comics).

That picture is actually a morph that was done a long time ago utilizing Conradt Veidt from the old silent film THE MAN WHO LAUGHS. That silent film was actually the original inspiration for the Joker character, so its fitting. This poster is actually a fan poster (from somebody at the Batman-on-film.com message boards) which utilized the original morph. That picture is pretty much my ideal BATMAN ESCALATION Joker.

#85 Gabe Vieira

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:49 AM

Okay. Wow. Now you got me there! I love that! The black on white is awesome. Genuinely creepy. In my story, the first time that Batman meets the Joker, the Joker is dressed in an ALL white tux. Imagine THAT Joker in an all white tux. I think that would look so cool. Maybe his hair could be a little longer, but that is a great pic, Harmsway. Where did you find that?

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Dressed in an all-white tux, huh? That's cool, but I personally think a black tux with a white vest/white shirt/white tie underneath would be spectacular looking (Alex Ross gave the Joker this outfit in the comics).

That picture is pretty much my ideal BATMAN ESCALATION Joker.

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Oh, Hells Yeah! I just looked up a pic of Alex Ross' Joker and that is awesome. I can't believe I never saw that pic. That fan art's Joker, in Alex Ross' tux, maybe a Black tie instead of a white one, and that it the Joker for Batman Escalation!

Harmsway, I have converted over to your side :)

#86 Harmsway

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:51 AM

Harmsway, I have converted over to your side  :)

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:)

#87 hcmv007

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 12:55 PM

I want something like this:

Posted Image

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Dude, that bleepin rocks, and I love the title, too!

#88 Tanger

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:44 PM

Right now I'm working with the name "Adrian Vincentte" for the Joker. It sounds like a Joker-esk name. What would you named the Joker?

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Joe Kerr

#89 Gabe Vieira

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 04:11 PM

Right now I'm working with the name "Adrian Vincentte" for the Joker. It sounds like a Joker-esk name. What would you named the Joker?

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Joe Kerr

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[Hits palm of hand up against head] Why did I not think of that!? :)

Harmsway (well everybody), now that we have our "perfect" image of that the Joker should look like in the sequel, let's talk about the Joker's mind. What should he act like? Should he be more like the Joker from the Burton original with more comedy than violence, or be more viloent than comedic.

In my short summery of the Batman sequel, my Joker is made out to be just a confused, gruesome, psychopathic maniac. An FBI profiler working for the Gotham Police Department suggests that he was abused in some kind of way, is probably confused about his sexuality, and takes pleasuse in violence, or that he just doesn't fully understand what he is doing and he can't control it probably due to a mental disorder. I doubt that you will like that idea :)

But I really want to see a Joker who is just plain messed up in the next film. Not as much as mine, but when I write, I like to find the extraordinary of the ordinary - to push reality as close as possible without breaking through that thick, but fragile wall into fiction.

#90 Harmsway

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 06:02 PM

Right now I'm working with the name "Adrian Vincentte" for the Joker. It sounds like a Joker-esk name. What would you named the Joker?

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Joe Kerr

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[Hits palm of hand up against head] Why did I not think of that!? :)

Harmsway (well everybody), now that we have our "perfect" image of that the Joker should look like in the sequel, let's talk about the Joker's mind. What should he act like? Should he be more like the Joker from the Burton original with more comedy than violence, or be more viloent than comedic.

In my short summery of the Batman sequel, my Joker is made out to be just a confused, gruesome, psychopathic maniac. An FBI profiler working for the Gotham Police Department suggests that he was abused in some kind of way, is probably confused about his sexuality, and takes pleasuse in violence, or that he just doesn't fully understand what he is doing and he can't control it probably due to a mental disorder. I doubt that you will like that idea :)

But I really want to see a Joker who is just plain messed up in the next film. Not as much as mine, but when I write, I like to find the extraordinary of the ordinary - to push reality as close as possible without breaking through that thick, but fragile wall into fiction.

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I'm not going to lie, I dislike your characterization, partially because it's so untrue to the comics. If you're going to adapt a comic book, keep the spirit of the characters in order. As much as Nolan/Goyer changed the characters around for Begins, he didn't change them like you're changing the Joker. He keeps the essence of the characters intact and really just changes externals to make them fit.

The Joker should never be "confused" - he's a genius, albeit an insane one, similar to Hannibal Lecter. He fully understands what he's doing, but is just really, really twisted. He has to be supreme in that sense. He can't be reduced to just another "crazy murderer" (we have plenty of those in Batman as is, even with Mr. Zsasz, introduced in Begins). Joker has to be the GREATEST of all comic book villains.

I also resent the idea that an FBI profiler would be able to characterize the Joker at all. In the comic books, it's been a problem with the Joker that no therapy works whatsoever. They're not even sure he can be qualified as "insane" (similar to the way that Hannibal Lecter wasn't characterized as a psychopath by those that tried to evaluate him). Even when people do try to figure him out, they end up failing, and hard. He's beyond people's understanding and it should remain that way.

If you're going to give an origin to the Joker character, take a look at THE KILLING JOKE. The roots of the Joker character are best there (wherein, he's an innocent man who has "one bad day" like Batman, and because of the tragedy there gives up on sanity). There we understand that the Joker's madness is more of a rejection of logic, reason, order - because he looks at the world and sees it as one giant joke. He doesn't believe in overlying morals, or justice, or anything. For him, insanity is merely an abdication of sanity. He represents the chaos to Batman's order - and is pretty much unpredictable.

The Joker of BATMAN ESCALATION should hardly resemble Nicholson's Joker (who was a far cry from the disturbing, homicidal maniac of the comics). I want to see a genuine sicko, like he is in THE KILLING JOKE, where he shoots Barbara Gordon (the daughter of Commissioner Gordon) in the spine, and continues to make jokes about it as she's lying there on the floor.

His sense of humor should always be dark and twisted, and mean. Of course, we as the audience, should be able to laugh with him now and then, but he really should be nuts. There's a great scene in the story THE LONG HALLOWEEN where the Joker is about murder an entire crowd in Gotham Square on New Year's Eve, just because this anonymous killer *might* be there among them. That's Jokerish, and downright comedic in a dark way.

He should be a vicious murderer as well, as he was in his initial appearance in the comic books - assassinating important figures in Gotham. He should not shy away from displays of violence. He should be downright scary.