152 replies to this topic

[Donovan]

Well, I'm not ready to say that Robert Brown's M is Admiral Hargreaves, but I am willing to admit that General Alexis Gogol and General Anatol Gogol are twin brothers, the latter having succeeded his brother as head of the KGB sometime between 1977 and 1987.

[rennervision]

I lurk around here on occasion, and I thought I would share my theory on why I believe Robert Brown's M is Admiral Hargreaves. All it requires is for you to accept the fact that Never Say Never Again actually "happened" in the Bond world. Here's my reasoning...

Although NSNA was released two years after For Your Eyes Only, FYEO must take place shortly after NSNA. This is because Blofeld is alive in NSNA, and he's killed at the beginning of FYEO.

Prior to NSNA, Bernard Lee's last appearance as M was in Moonraker. We can assume he was later succeeded by Edward Fox since he presumably deactivated the Double-O's and also referred to his predecessor. Bond retired after this mission, and no doubt this new M played a part in his decision.

So when Bond returns to service in FYEO, it would seem a new M is now in office (although he is not shown). When we finally get to see M in Octopussy, it wouldn't make any sense for him to be Sir Miles Messervy at this point. So he must be someone else - Admiral Hargreaves.

[Tiin007]

I lurk around here on occasion, and I thought I would share my theory on why I believe Robert Brown's M is Admiral Hargreaves. All it requires is for you to accept the fact that Never Say Never Again actually "happened" in the Bond world. Here's my reasoning...

Although NSNA was released two years after For Your Eyes Only, FYEO must take place shortly after NSNA. This is because Blofeld is alive in NSNA, and he's killed at the beginning of FYEO.

Prior to NSNA, Bernard Lee's last appearance as M was in Moonraker. We can assume he was later succeeded by Edward Fox since he presumably deactivated the Double-O's and also referred to his predecessor. Bond retired after this mission, and no doubt this new M played a part in his decision.

So when Bond returns to service in FYEO, it would seem a new M is now in office (although he is not shown). When we finally get to see M in Octopussy, it wouldn't make any sense for him to be Sir Miles Messervy at this point. So he must be someone else - Admiral Hargreaves.

Two things-- one, NSNA did NOT "happen" in the Bond world(which disproves your theory). Two, even if NSNA "happened", all your theory proves is that M in Octopussy is NOT Sir Miles Messervy. It doesn't prove that M is Hargreaves.

By the way, welcome to the forums.

Edited by Tiin007, 08 February 2006 - 12:46 AM.

[DLibrasnow]

Can we just lay this all to rest.

I mean it does not matter what "evidence" one side brings up to support their point of view (and there is plenty of conflicting "evidence" to support both theories) the other side will maintain their views.

Personally I believe that the M from Octopussy to Licence To Kill is Adm. Hargreaves, but I understand that some people seem to want to disgrace the memory of Bernard Lee (ooops did I say that out loud) by saying that Robert Brown is playing Sir Miles. Whichever works for you is fine.

Next subject to debate please!

[SecretAgent007]

edit

Edited by SecretAgent007, 08 February 2006 - 03:13 AM.

[Streetworker]

[quote name='Mister Asterix' post='418230' date='24 June 2005 - 16:12']
[mra]Take a look at M in the pre-titles of The Living Daylights on his shoulder is his Royal Navy rank

[Tinfinger]

Well, with Casino Royale being a Bond begins movie, rendering the previous 20 Bonds meaningless, I think the old M argument is kinda meaningless now unless someone has money riding on it, of course!

[spynovelfan]

[quote name='Streetworker' post='514809' date='8 February 2006 - 08:39']
[quote name='Mister Asterix' post='418230' date='24 June 2005 - 16:12']
[mra]Take a look at M in the pre-titles of The Living Daylights on his shoulder is his Royal Navy rank

[Streetworker]

[quote name='spynovelfan' post='514819' date='8 February 2006 - 09:27']
[quote name='Streetworker' post='514809' date='8 February 2006 - 08:39']
[quote name='Mister Asterix' post='418230' date='24 June 2005 - 16:12']
[mra]Take a look at M in the pre-titles of The Living Daylights on his shoulder is his Royal Navy rank

Edited by Streetworker, 08 February 2006 - 10:13 AM.

[Jim]

Oh, be nice.

[spynovelfan]

You're absolutely right to pick me up on that. I am clearly at fault for not sharing the mania for inconsequential detail. I apologise for having a life and consider myself duly rebuked.

You've missed my point. Mister * started the thread to put to rest this particular inconsequential detail. And we're on a James Bond fan site - what would you suggest people post? 'Gosh, those Bond films are pretty good, aren't they?'

Fans do tend to talk about tiny details!

I fail to see what you have added to the discussion. There are lots of inconsquential details about Bond that I'm not interested in - I don't invade the threads in question to tell Bond fans to stop discussing Bond in detail.

[Peaceful]

Ok I could be wrong here, cause it's been a while since I've listened to it but I seem to remember on the Audio commentry of Octopussy, John Glen clearly states that Robert Brown was cast to replace Bernard Lee's character of M/Sir Miles

But I could be wrong ...

[Streetworker]

You're absolutely right to pick me up on that. I am clearly at fault for not sharing the mania for inconsequential detail. I apologise for having a life and consider myself duly rebuked.

You've missed my point. Mister * started the thread to put to rest this particular inconsequential detail. And we're on a James Bond fan site - what would you suggest people post? 'Gosh, those Bond films are pretty good, aren't they?'

Fans do tend to talk about tiny details!

I fail to see what you have added to the discussion. There are lots of inconsquential details about Bond that I'm not interested in - I don't invade the threads in question to tell Bond fans to stop discussing Bond in detail.

And you've missed the irony of this and my previous post. But then I guess I'm having to learn than fan boards are irony-free zones. Oh, well...

[ACE]

Well isn't Judi Dench's M, Robert Brown's M, after the gender transformation operation* that took place from 1989 to 1995? Judi Dench is Admiral Hargreaves is M!

Evidence (but why bother, this is a forum thread after all!):

In TWINE, picture of Bernard Lee. Surely there would be pictures of other Chiefs of SIS?

GE, Bond refers to only one predecessor

GE, M calls him sexist and misogynist - still smarting from the "man talk" Bond and her former self would engage in at Blades. After all, Bond would not be sexist in front of new M.

We know what those kinky, stuck up Brits are like behind closed doors. Hell, even Yanks like J Edgar Hoover were not above a "walk on the wild side"

Mr *'s point easily dealt with. Such inclinations would have been frowned upon in Royal Navy circles. Hence the demotion. But scared of legal action, SIS took Admiral Hargreaves on instead as part of their more open recruitment policy. And he proved, erm, man (person) enough for the job.

M's classic comeback to Admiral Roebuck in TND about thinking with balls: how would she know?

Next please....







*this thread has nothing to do with recent events involving a past Bond director or how one can skew facts to suit one's argument. Personally, I always liked the Hargreaves argument if only because it provided much needed continuity. However, Mr *'s research, while brilliant, may not be conclusive. In Bondworld, Freddie Gray was a minister in a non-existent post and survived an impossible change of Government. Intention rather than factual accuracy might be the key here. Did Glen, Maibaum, Wilson, Cubby et al, intend Hargreaves to be the new M? Or was he cast merely because he was an old mate of Roger's, completely oblivious to the debates which would endure for decades afterwards? When it comes to reality logic in Bond, those 3 Blind Mice would have shot Bond in Dr No, and we'd all now be posting on HeyMattHelm.net ! No offence is intended to any party who may be tempted to be offended, who feels they are caught pitilessly in the headlights of this post. Oooh, M, can I borrow your Manolos....

[spynovelfan]

I love it! Think it might need proof , but it's certainly not impossible. Even in the real world, SIS has done some fairly odd stuff, and several Cs have had scandal attached to them: John Rennie's son was a drug-dealer, and Maurice Oldfield (said by some to be a model for M, by others to be a model for Smiley) was alleged to be a paedophile, among other things. Then you have the fact that they let Philby carry on working for them in Beirut well after they knew he was KGB, and so on. No transexuals*, as far as I know, but it's a nice (well, sort of nice!) idea. Not sure Dench would be too flattered to hear of it, though!

I also like rennervision's theory.

Then again, I do need to get out more.



*Not to suggest that changing one's sex is in any way equable with drug-dealing, pederasty or treason, but it would nevertheless be rather a scandal if it were leaked to Tomorrow that the head of Britain's secret service had once been a man, and liked hanging around the docks. Must. Get. Out. Now.

[james st.john smythe]

whats judi dench's "M"s real name?

[ACE]

whats judi dench's "M"s real name?

Admiral Sir Horatio Hargreaves (see post #74 above)

[DLibrasnow]

Ok I could be wrong here, cause it's been a while since I've listened to it but I seem to remember on the Audio commentry of Octopussy, John Glen clearly states that Robert Brown was cast to replace Bernard Lee's character of M/Sir Miles

But I could be wrong ...

Yes, but the most compelling "evidence" for those who believe that Brown played Adm. Hargreaves from 1983 to 1989 (apart from the aforementioned Micheal G. Wilson interview) is the Danjaq produced CD-ROMs that clearly state that Brown played Hargreaves in all those movies.

[spynovelfan]

Ok I could be wrong here, cause it's been a while since I've listened to it but I seem to remember on the Audio commentry of Octopussy, John Glen clearly states that Robert Brown was cast to replace Bernard Lee's character of M/Sir Miles

But I could be wrong ...

Yes, but the most compelling "evidence" for those who believe that Brown played Adm. Hargreaves from 1983 to 1989 (apart from the aforementioned Micheal G. Wilson interview) is the Danjaq produced CD-ROMs that clearly state that Brown played Hargreaves in all those movies.

Would you not say that anything in those CD-ROMs that is contradicted by the films themselves is more than likely a mistake, though?

There is no proof in the films that Brown's M was Hargreaves. There is proof in the films he was not. Case closed, surely?

[doublenoughtspy]

Danjaq didn't produce the CD-Rom Dossier, MGM Interactive did.

And from MKKBB:

As is probably inevitable in a project of this scope, there are the occasional slip-ups in data. For example, the photo that accompanies the one-page bio devoted to Robert Brown (the second "M") is actually a picture of Geoffrey Keen (Defense Minister Frederick Gray). And if some of the biographical information on James Bond seems unfamiliar, it's because it came not from Ian Fleming, or even the films, but from the "21st Anniversary" James Bond special produced for American TV with the aid of EON. CD-ROM co-author John Cork has stated that his team turned to sources like the TV special and EON's p.r. materials to fill in the blanks of Bond's early life, since the films reveal next to nothing and Fleming's writings were off-limits legally.

The full review is here:

http://www.ianflemin...ine/cdrom.shtml

[Mister Asterix]

Danjaq didn't produce the CD-Rom Dossier, MGM Interactive did.

And from MKKBB:

As is probably inevitable in a project of this scope, there are the occasional slip-ups in data. For example, the photo that accompanies the one-page bio devoted to Robert Brown (the second "M") is actually a picture of Geoffrey Keen (Defense Minister Frederick Gray)....

The Defense Minister is Admiral Hargreaves!

Well, surely the evidence is right there on those CD-ROMs that apparently are more accurate then the films.

With respect, I think you need to get out more.

I would have, but it was raining at the time.

(And would going outdoors for the 10 seconds it took me to pause the TiVo to check what I thought I saw really have enriched my life that much more.)

[spynovelfan]

If different actors playing M means they're different men using the same codename, can we also apply this to 007 a la Tamahori's marvellous idea?

Is there any actual *evidence* in the films that Brosnan's character was the same as Connery's? Well, then!

Then we'll get onto how Dikko Henderson faked his own death to become Blofeld. Not mentioned in the films, I know... but it is the same actor!

The onus is on you unbelievers to prove all this wrong.



(Before you kill me, Darren, I quite like NSNA. )

[Jim]

Oh lordy, this rubbish again.

[DLibrasnow]

There is no proof in the films that Brown's M was Hargreaves. There is proof in the films he was not. Case closed, surely?

Please cite this proof that he was not as I am not aware of it.

If you are referring to Evan's supposed "proof" then I don't see this as anything like conclusive. I suppose nobody here has ever heard of someone being demoted.

I can see the scenario, pulled from duty out in the field (where most Naval people I know would prefer to be) Hargreaves is handed a desk job babysitting a handful of agents.

Nothing anyone says will change my mind on the subject.

[Jim]

Please cite this proof that he was not as I am not aware of it.

If you are referring to Evan's supposed "proof" then I don't see this as anything like conclusive. I suppose nobody here has ever heard of someone being demoted.

I can see the scenario, pulled from duty out in the field (where most Naval people I know would prefer to be) Hargreaves is handed a desk job babysitting a handful of agents.

Nothing anyone says will change my mind on the subject.

Yes, yes, we've heard of demotion but how does someone get demoted to being the head of SIS?

Oh God; I've just got involved in this hateful, fatuous "debate". Apologies to all, but especially to myself.

[DLibrasnow]

Easily.

[Jim]

Easily.

You've convinced me.

[Head of S]

I just never understood this issue/question regarding the remote possibility that Robert Brown's M is a different character than Bernard Lee's M. By the reasoning presented that they're different because they're played by two different actors, we've had:
Five (going on six) different agents who also happen to be named James Bond and happen to have the number 007...
Two different Major Boothroyds...
Three different Bill Tanners...
Three different Miss Moneypennys...
And all kinds of shapes and sizes of Blofelds and Felix Leiters (well, yes literally).
Sounds good to me.

And don't forget to add in the two General Gogols: Alexei Gogol (named in TSWLM) and Anatol Gogol (credit in TLD). Same actor, two different names. Brothers, perhaps?

In an earlier draft of the script for 'The Living Daylights' General Gogol addresses M as 'Miles'.

[doublenoughtspy]

So Darren,

You are saying in the entire 40 year history of the series, that an actor or actress playing different roles in different films - that Brown is the only one playing the character from the 1st film - not the later film.

So - Martine Beswick - is she a gypsy girl or Paula?

Charles Grey - Henderson or Blofeld?

George Baker - Sir Hilary Bray or Royal Navy Captain Benson (no relation to Raymond...or IS THERE?)

Joe Don Baker - Whittaker or Wade?

Etc. Etc.

[DLibrasnow]

I don't expect to convince any of the unbelievers.....just like they should not expect to convince me.

It's not going to happen. That's like telling me that Never Say Never Again is a terrible film....nothing is going to shake me in my conviction that its a great film.

That's like trying to convince doublenoughtspy that On Her Majesty’s Secret Service is a terrible film - good luck!

(just to erase any confusion, On Her Majesty’s Secret Service is my third favorite 007 movie so I was not knocking it).

So Darren,

You are saying in the entire 40 year history of the series, that an actor or actress playing different roles in different films - that Brown is the only one playing the character from the 1st film - not the later film.

So - Martine Beswick - is she a gypsy girl or Paula?

Charles Grey - Henderson or Blofeld?

George Baker - Sir Hilary Bray or Royal Navy Captain Benson (no relation to Raymond...or IS THERE?)

Joe Don Baker - Whittaker or Wade?

Etc. Etc.

Or David Hedison...as Felix Leiter in one movie and -- wow, Felix Leiter in a second movie.