152 replies to this topic

[DLibrasnow]

I guess you guys have never heard of anyone being demoted before

Besides its good to hear that John Cork has the common sense to know that Brown is Admiral Hargreaves!

[Donovan]

I just never understood this issue/question regarding the remote possibility that Robert Brown's M is a different character than Bernard Lee's M. By the reasoning presented that they're different because they're played by two different actors, we've had:

Five (going on six) different agents who also happen to be named James Bond and happen to have the number 007...

Two different Major Boothroyds...

Three different Bill Tanners...

Three different Miss Moneypennys...

And all kinds of shapes and sizes of Blofelds and Felix Leiters (well, yes literally).

Sounds good to me.

[DLibrasnow]

I just never understood this issue/question regarding the remote possibility that Robert Brown's M is a different character than Bernard Lee's M. By the reasoning presented that they're different because they're played by two different actors, we've had:

There's also no evidence that Brown played Sir Miles. Now if, for example, there had been a line of dialogue in which Admiral Hargreaves' M was called "Sir Miles" then there would be no argument. But, there's absolutely nothing that supports the assertion that Brown is playing the same character as Lee.

I suppose you consider Edward Fox as Sir Miles and Judi Dench as Sir Miles following a sex change (of course I am teasing!)

[Mister Asterix]

The CD-ROMs were co-authored by John Cork? Well that does it Evan (Mister *) must be right because Cork doesn't know anything about 007

[mra]Cork knows plenty. But fans who also know plenty are on both sides of this issue. The question becomes is this info on the CD-ROM based on Cork

[Simon]

Morzeny and General Gogul had pretty similar personalities? Are they the same?

And God only knows what that says about the Blofeld's cat, and especially the three or so that were employed for Diamonds, although the one for Eyes Only was potentially a stray with a spikey character just looking for a home and 'un-named bald bloke with similarities to other unreferenced villains' was otherwise too preoccupied to move him on.

Guess we'll never know.

But good spot Asterix, always thought the same (without the proof) and I too will always go with the films as opposed to officially licenced products authored by rent-a-hacks.

[Simon]

There's also no evidence that Brown played Sir Miles. Now if, for example, there had been a line of dialogue in which Admiral Hargreaves' M was called "Sir Miles" then there would be no argument. But, there's absolutely nothing that supports the assertion that Brown is playing the same character as Lee.

You would otherwise be accepting that MI6 would promote a previously demoted Navy chap to head up the spy unit? Of course there are plenty of reasons for demotion, but none too many acceptable ones...

[Donovan]

I suppose you consider Edward Fox as Sir Miles and Judi Dench as Sir Miles following a sex change (of course I am teasing!)

Well, in all seriousness, both characters had references to "their predecessors".

I think also, it can be argued, that if Lee and Brown were two different characters, there would have/should have also been a portrait of Brown's M hanging in the Scotland HQ along with Lee.

Finally, scriptwise, when new characters are introduced to the series, such as Penelope Smallbone, Jack Wade, Judi Dench's M, the script makes a note of that. Everytime. Whereas M in "Octopussy" is written like it's business as usual. Do we notice any striking office decor changes between Lee and Brown? Paintings (which I think were always changing anyway) but some of the antique nautical pieces are the same, are they not? Of course, incorrectly assuming they're different characters, they are both Naval and could naturally have the same tastes, and perhaps the same habits such as pipe smoking. But it's a weak argument. They're the same character, no doubt about it.

(p.s. did the fellow who looked up M and Hardgreave's uniforms also look up the one M wore in "You Only Live Twice"? Just curious....)

Edited by Donovan, 25 June 2005 - 10:46 PM.

[DLibrasnow]

Lee's M is a Rear Admiral in YOLT which I know doesn't help my case, but here's a screenshot of the scene (love that feature on my DVD-ROM drive)


Simon - I am assuming that he was demoted to a desk job (babysitting some 00's and following the Ministers orders) rather than an active job out on the high seas actively in charge of hundreds of people.

Moderator

Edited by Mister Asterix, 08 July 2005 - 05:45 PM.

[Mr. Somerset]

Okay, I'll jump in on this. I'll go with Brown's Hargreaves and M are different characters...mainly because it should've been mentioned in some way or another in OP that he was promoted. To me, it's like asking if Shane Rimmer is the same character in DAF as he was in YOLT.

[Strangways]

I just never understood this issue/question regarding the remote possibility that Robert Brown's M is a different character than Bernard Lee's M. By the reasoning presented that they're different because they're played by two different actors, we've had:
Five (going on six) different agents who also happen to be named James Bond and happen to have the number 007...
Two different Major Boothroyds...
Three different Bill Tanners...
Three different Miss Moneypennys...
And all kinds of shapes and sizes of Blofelds and Felix Leiters (well, yes literally).
Sounds good to me.

And don't forget to add in the two General Gogols: Alexei Gogol (named in TSWLM) and Anatol Gogol (credit in TLD). Same actor, two different names. Brothers, perhaps?

[Kara Milovy]

There's also no evidence that Brown played Sir Miles. Now if, for example, there had been a line of dialogue in which Admiral Hargreaves' M was called "Sir Miles" then there would be no argument. But, there's absolutely nothing that supports the assertion that Brown is playing the same character as Lee.

Except that there is dialogue about Judi Dench being the "new M" in Goldeneye. Making it extremely unlikely that a "new M" was introduced previously, but without such dialogue.

In fact, both Dench and John Cleese refer to their "predecessor." So we know that, when a character is replaced, they are referred to by the new actor, but when an actor is replaced (Bond, Moneypenny, Boothroyd, M), no such dialogue exists.

[DLibrasnow]

I just never understood this issue/question regarding the remote possibility that Robert Brown's M is a different character than Bernard Lee's M.

Where's your evidence they are the same character?

[ACE]

I've always loved the notion that Hargreaves became the new M but...

The evidence on the screen re: M's office, previous casting precedents and John Glen's response (when asked on this particular point) probably lead to the conclusion it was simple recasting. After all, Kenneth More was ready to step in to play M in LALD and Robert Brown was a very old friend and colleague of Roger's.

John Cork substantially wrote the CD-ROM and was more than just a contributor.

However, I'm sure even John would admit that he is capable of making mistakes. As are we all.

BTW, Mr *, I'd also like to say very good detective work (presumably your analysis of RN uniform is correct!)

ACE

Edited by ACE, 08 July 2005 - 06:00 PM.

[DLibrasnow]

In fact, both Dench and John Cleese refer to their "predecessor." So we know that, when a character is replaced, they are referred to by the new actor, but when an actor is replaced (Bond, Moneypenny, Boothroyd, M), no such dialogue exists.

C'mon that is such flimsy logic its laughable!

By that logic you must believe that Lazenbys 007 is a different 007 from Connery's

Irregardless this is a pointless discussion since nobody is going to change their opinion no matter what the other side says.

[Donovan]

Irregardless this is a pointless discussion since nobody is going to change their opinion no matter what the other side says.

What if Michael Wilson said one way or the other? I would think as writer/producer during the transition he would provide authoritive proof that either the same character was re-cast (which is the case) or it's Admiral H (based on the whim of a few fans).

[DLibrasnow]

Irregardless this is a pointless discussion since nobody is going to change their opinion no matter what the other side says.

What if Michael Wilson said one way or the other? I would think as writer/producer during the transition he would provide authoritive proof that either the same character was re-cast (which is the case) or it's Admiral H (based on the whim of a few fans).

Wilson has already spoken (weighing in on the side of the Adm. H. supporters) as was mentioned in an earlier thread on the subject.

But, don't you think the whole debate is pointless Donovan? I mean obviously its Adm. Hargreaves who accompanies Bond to Checkpoint Charlie in Octopussy and to Ascot in A View To A Kill, but if some small number of fans want to believe its Sir Miles, than that's up to them.

[Gri007]

I'll stick with Admiral Hargreaves. I also like to think that Bernard Lee was the one and only Sir Miles.

I agree. Was there no explanation in Gardner's LTK why M had changed. Or was he still known as Sir Miles Merservey. I do think that when they get a diffrent actor to play a continueing 'co-star' they should change the name.

Next we'll be debating weather or not John Cleee's Q is still called major Boothroyed, put a side the difference in looks

[Alex Zamudio]

Hi, I wrote this info quite a while in another Thread:

-------------------------------------------------------

I have the Ultimate James Bond Interactive Dossier enciclopedia, the CD-ROMs produced by MGM with Danjaq in 1995, it has a lot of info about the movies, and characters. And considers Robert Brown's M as a second new M, a total different character, This are fragments of his Bio:

M2

Taking the helm beggining with the Octopussy mission. M was a staid, dignified englishman with small tolerance for 007's cocksure handling of woman and weaponry, like his PREDECESSOR, he tried to downplay his high regard for Bond, lest 007 ego expand even further, M also Retained the services of Miss Moneypenney... The working relationship between M and Bond seemed more strained and confrontational a M found 007 becoming too personally involved in his missions, more notable in the TLD and LTK missions... Like his PREDECESSOR the era of d

Edited by Alex Zamudio, 10 July 2005 - 08:37 PM.

[Mister Asterix]

[quote name='Alex Zamudio' date='10 July 2005 - 15:37']Hi, I wrote this info quite a while in another Thread:

-------------------------------------------------------

I have the Ultimate James Bond Interactive Dossier enciclopedia, the CD-ROMs produced by MGM with Danjaq in 1995, it has a lot of info about the movies, and characters. And considers Robert Brown's M as a second new M, a total different character, This are fragments of his Bio:

M2

Taking the helm beggining with the Octopussy mission. M was a staid, dignified englishman with small tolerance for 007's cocksure handling of woman and weaponry, like his PREDECESSOR, he tried to downplay his high regard for Bond, lest 007 ego expand even further, M also Retained the services of Miss Moneypenney... The working relationship between M and Bond seemed more strained and confrontational a M found 007 becoming too personally involved in his missions, more notable in the TLD and LTK missions... Like his PREDECESSOR the era of d

[SportzStooge007]

Or, someone on the TLD production staff just made a mistake.

I think most of the time, when things like that happen, its just a mistake.

I doubt if producers did that on purpose to show that Hargreaves was not 'M'.

If they wanted to prove that they would've said it, literally. They've snuck trivial information like that into lines.

For example in TSWLM when Anya calls 'Q' Major Boothroyd, it let everyone know that 'Q' was Boothroyd and Boothroyd was 'Q'.

[DLibrasnow]

It seems that all we know for certain is that Brown did not play Sir Miles.

[Mister Asterix]

It seems that all we know for certain is that Brown did not play Sir Miles.

[mra]I

[DLibrasnow]

Since the CD-ROMS are produced by Danjaq and researched by John Cork and they say the two (Lee and Brown's M) are different characters, thats good enough for me.

I think we can be certain based on this evidence that Brown's M is not Sir Miles.

[Mister Asterix]

Since the CD-ROMS are produced by Danjaq and researched by John Cork and they say the two (Lee and Brown's M) are different characters, thats good enough for me.

I think we can be certain based on this evidence that Brown's M is not Sir Miles.

[mra]Certain? No.

There were those at Eon who felt that Boothroyd and Q were two separate characters until it was finally put to rest in The Spy Who Loved Me, until it is put to film you can

[Bond_Bishop]

Nice explanation Mister Asterix! But I think it would have made a little more sense if Brown would have played the Admiral Hargreaves.

[Skin 17]

I have always wondered that and reading Gardner's books ,although not directly linked to the movies, made me think that Brown's M was Sir Miles

[Mr. Somerset]

Here we go again. I'm thinking that when Robert Brown first arrived at Checkpoint Charlie to begin his career as M, he wasn't told; "Now remember, Robert, you're playing the Admiral you were in the other film only promoted, we just didn't have time to put it in the script."
I'd bet the script simply said "M", with no specifications as to which admiral it was. So it would've been up to Brown himself to create his own backstory. Perhaps he did decide to essentially play Hargreaves, or just play Miles in his own style. Either way, I am one fan who appreciated his tenure as OO7's boss.

[rnblover1971]

There's also no evidence that Brown played Sir Miles. Now if, for example, there had been a line of dialogue in which Admiral Hargreaves' M was called "Sir Miles" then there would be no argument. But, there's absolutely nothing that supports the assertion that Brown is playing the same character as Lee.

Except that there is dialogue about Judi Dench being the "new M" in Goldeneye. Making it extremely unlikely that a "new M" was introduced previously, but without such dialogue.

In fact, both Dench and John Cleese refer to their "predecessor." So we know that, when a character is replaced, they are referred to by the new actor, but when an actor is replaced (Bond, Moneypenny, Boothroyd, M), no such dialogue exists.

Hi Kara,

Actually, when it comes to an actor referring to his predecessor, one could say that George Lazenby was referring to Sean Connery in the pre-titles sequence when he got ditched by Tracy on the beach and exclaimed to the audience, "This never happened to the other feller!"

[Napoleon Solo]

>>But it is a shame that hargreaves isn't M. Does this mean that Brown's M is still Sir Miles Merservy?<<

That's what I always thought.

[Michigansoftball#1]

I subscribe to the belief that Adm. Hargreaves is M in the Bond movies of the 1980s.