205 replies to this topic

[Mister Asterix]

XXX is a great example. (God, did I just say that?) When they wanted to make a black XXX they made him a different person.

I think Vin Diesel's a perfect example of why it could feasibly now work with Bond. Check this out:

http://www.alternet.org/story/13863

[mra]Interesting about Vin Diesel

[ACE]

Cheesus Kerist!

Look, Bond is Black.

It says it on all the posters.

Bond is Black

James Bond - Black in Action.

Just leave him that way.

Oh! Dyslexics of the world: untie!



Cultural heritage is not what is being talked about here.
This in cinema. It is visual.

By saying Bond must remain "white", I think people mean a WASP of reasonable physique, good looks and the Bondian features - an element of danger, a swagger, a presence, and stereotypically a "British" internationalist i.e not Slavic.

[spynovelfan]

not Slavic.

Agreed!

Oh, it was just an intellectual thing. (Um, yes, possibly euphemism for mental masturbation.) I think it's become ever-so-slightly dull, even for me.

Are you writing an article, or somefink? If so, can you quote me, please?

[wibg]

but some people would say that Miller is 'black'






Who? Stevie Wonder?

Ace, My grandfather was very fair skinned and my grandmother was very darkskined. There are many many of us of African origin who looks like this good looking chap, Miller; about him being James Bond? No.; he's too young to assume such a role.

[ACE]

wibg, you have not understood what I am saying.

I am NOT referring to the cultural heritage of anyone.

I am referring to the VISUAL impact of a person and what commonly they would be classed as. There are many white Africans so the term African-American is misleading.

I was merely making a comment on what the term "black" means. For filmic terms
it is VERY simple. The term in the use I am commenting on is a colour, not a cultural heritage.

Nobody merely looking at Wentworth Miller would say he was "black", framed in the terms I am suggesting.

It is so unarguable as not to be true.

Now, in a cultural context "black" is very complex. But that is not what we are talking about here.

AT ALL.

ACE

[wibg]

For the sake of understanding, I CERTAINLY hope so.

[WC]

My problem with this thread is partly its title and the selection of one particular ethnic background. Why not say "Time for a non-white Bond" instead of "Time for a Black Bond"? To me, it's suggesting that Black would be the next acceptable race after White. That it would be more acceptable than say, a Chinese Bond or an Indian Bond or a Hispanic Bond etc.

If Black is acceptable, then the same standard has to be applied to every other race, otherwise that would be just as racially discriminatory.

Unless people here (by citing the likes of Colin Salmon) ARE saying that a Black Bond is acceptable whereas a Chinese one isn't.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Well, that's a good point but considering this thread was written by some idiotic race-baiter for some article...it's kind of moot.

[Dominus9]

A black or any race but white would be a really bad decision, look what happened to the honeymooners movie. Having a black Bond would be way too PC. Why does it have to be a black Bond? Why not a chinese bond? Or maybe a tribal bond from indonesia? There could be a woman james bond but she would still go by James and look like a guy. Maybe even a redneck bond and his car could be an old Camaro or a Firebird with no paint, & his gun of choice could be a shotgun.Maybe a gay james bond and he could wear pink tuxedos and and his gun could fire pink glitter. Because everyone knows the REAL james bond is alledgedly not white or straigth anymore.

[spynovelfan]

Welcome to CBN, Dominus 9. But maybe read the thread? Or a page of it, at least?

[Spoon]

My problem with this thread is partly its title and the selection of one particular ethnic background. Why not say "Time for a non-white Bond" instead of "Time for a Black Bond"? To me, it's suggesting that Black would be the next acceptable race after White. That it would be more acceptable than say, a Chinese Bond or an Indian Bond or a Hispanic Bond etc.

If Black is acceptable, then the same standard has to be applied to every other race, otherwise that would be just as racially discriminatory.

Unless people here (by citing the likes of Colin Salmon) ARE saying that a Black Bond is acceptable whereas a Chinese one isn't.

See, but by saying that, you're exemplifying exactly what the guy is talking about in his article. And it's the same thing I was telling you about in your silly "Chinese Bond" thread, but you still had these particular blinders on. Take a step back and see if you can grasp the following concept.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CASTING COLIN SALMON AND CASTING FREAKIN' JET LI OR SOMETHING IS THAT COLIN SALMON IS BRITISH.

Chiwetel Ejiofor IS BRITISH.

Adrian Lester IS BRITISH.

You're saying that if you cast Colin Salmon, you might as well cast an American like Russell Wong or a Chinese like Chow Yun-Fat; Salmon, to you, is as non-British as they are. In other words, you're saying you're not "really British" unless your ancestry is Anglo-Saxon. That sort of attitude is EXACTLY what the article is critiquing. You're proving him 100% right!

If you want to cite someone of Asian ancestry WHO IS BRITISH, and if that person is really as good a candidate in a color-blind sense as Salmon/Ejiofor/Lester, then yes, it would be unfair to choose Salmon/Ejiofor/Lester over that person solely because "black is better than Asian." But that would be an entirely different story. If a person is not British, then regardless of their racial makeup, they are a less qualified candidate than someone who is British. So you can't go there.

The argument in favor of a non-white Bond states that Bond is essentially handsome, suave, confident, etc., and is a British citizen, but is not essentially white in skin color. No one is saying that Bond should not be British. It's the essence of the character. The question is (to spin it in a nice sort of way) are there things essential to the character that require that he be white as well as British, or (to spin it in a nasty sort of way) are we assuming that "quintessentially British" is defined as "Anglo-Saxon"?

Edited by Spoon, 19 September 2005 - 12:35 AM.

[TortillaFactory]

I've said it before, I think, and I'll say it again:

My problem with a black Bond has nothing to do with the cultural implications of being a dark-skinned person, or a person of African-American descent. Of course no one is advocating that black people should be treated differently in society than anyone else (at least, I *hope* no one is). As Ace pointed out, that's not what we're discussing. We are discussing a specific film role; a character who has a known background and heritage, a character whose color we have already established in previous books and films. Even aside from that, we are discussing a character who is an industry unto himself, a character who has huge cultural implications.

There are characters for whom race doesn't matter. Bond isn't one of them. Making Bond black would not fundamentally change what sort of person he is - I'm not implying that, and I don't think anyone is. It changes who he is in the culture. (The South African thing is a perfect example of that.) It changes his appearance so drastically that any hope of holding up the already filmsy fourth wall of "this is all the same guy, nudge nudge wink wink" is dead. (This is a bigger issue than people realize, I think. We let it slide once in OHMSS, but any more pussyfooting around on that dangerous turf and the Bond team will have to come up with a damn good explanation as to why he's eternally young and ever-changing.)

Bond should be white, not because he is British, but because he is white. We know this. Ian Fleming wrote him that way. I doubt there is any black actor who is so qualified for the part that he stands head and shoulders above any possible white candidate, so why is it bad to give white candidates priority?

If a black Bond were cast, it would be nothing more than a desperate attempt to prove a point. "SEE? WE CAN DO IT! WE'RE NOT RACIST!" But all it would prove is that we, as a culture, are still so concerned with race that we cannot let a white character remain as he is without feeling guilty about it. I would not advocate a white actor playing the part of a black man, or a chinese man, or a man of any other non-white race. Why would I advocate the reverse? It makes no rational sense, but is merely an exercise in Proving We Can. But just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

[hcmv007]

I recently read the article that Loomis had come across and was posted on this website last Fri, at least that's when I read it. One of my posts was quoted in the article, and I feel like I must respond. I made a long statement earlier in this forum, which was intended to be my final say on the topic, I have chimed in since, but only in brief. First of all, I do not believe the James Bond character, as we know him now, should ever be black. It's not impossible to believe that a black man could have the same life experiences, but just don't name him James Bond. What the writer of the article did was just look at what he wanted to, and wrote a biased, personal article for himself. Robinson made one of the best posts in this forum, and he was not even quoted by the writer. There is a market for minority action heroes in the world box office today, films like Rush Hour and XXX are good examples. Can't forget Blade. The challenge I have is to the very creative minority writers to come up with THEIR OWN hereoes. I know they can do it. As far as Dr. Who, not many people in the US really care. I haven't seen an episode in 20 years. Britain for centuries has had some of the world's best writers. I challenge them to create their own black, asian, mid-east, yellow, red, and blue heroes. James Bond is already taken.


IAN FLEMING'S JAMES BOND 007


That's what it says at every film title, as I posted on another forum calling for a minority Bond. James Bond is white, always has, always SHOULD be.

[WC]

My problem with this thread is partly its title and the selection of one particular ethnic background. Why not say "Time for a non-white Bond" instead of "Time for a Black Bond"? To me, it's suggesting that Black would be the next acceptable race after White. That it would be more acceptable than say, a Chinese Bond or an Indian Bond or a Hispanic Bond etc.

If Black is acceptable, then the same standard has to be applied to every other race, otherwise that would be just as racially discriminatory.

Unless people here (by citing the likes of Colin Salmon) ARE saying that a Black Bond is acceptable whereas a Chinese one isn't.

See, but by saying that, you're exemplifying exactly what the guy is talking about in his article. And it's the same thing I was telling you about in your silly "Chinese Bond" thread, but you still had these particular blinders on. Take a step back and see if you can grasp the following concept.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CASTING COLIN SALMON AND CASTING FREAKIN' JET LI OR SOMETHING IS THAT COLIN SALMON IS BRITISH.

Chiwetel Ejiofor IS BRITISH.

Adrian Lester IS BRITISH.

You're saying that if you cast Colin Salmon, you might as well cast an American like Russell Wong or a Chinese like Chow Yun-Fat; Salmon, to you, is as non-British as they are. In other words, you're saying you're not "really British" unless your ancestry is Anglo-Saxon. That sort of attitude is EXACTLY what the article is critiquing. You're proving him 100% right!

If you want to cite someone of Asian ancestry WHO IS BRITISH, and if that person is really as good a candidate in a color-blind sense as Salmon/Ejiofor/Lester, then yes, it would be unfair to choose Salmon/Ejiofor/Lester over that person solely because "black is better than Asian." But that would be an entirely different story. If a person is not British, then regardless of their racial makeup, they are a less qualified candidate than someone who is British. So you can't go there.

The argument in favor of a non-white Bond states that Bond is essentially handsome, suave, confident, etc., and is a British citizen, but is not essentially white in skin color. No one is saying that Bond should not be British. It's the essence of the character. The question is (to spin it in a nice sort of way) are there things essential to the character that require that he be white as well as British, or (to spin it in a nasty sort of way) are we assuming that "quintessentially British" is defined as "Anglo-Saxon"?

You talk about casting a British Bond who happens to be black. But I hear a lot of talk here about casting a non-British Bond - eg Goran Visjnic, Hugh Jackman, Eric Bana... et al. There have been lots of Americans suggested for Bond, as well as Australians and other non-British actors. The argument often made by those in favour of these is that these people are ACTORS - they can act British and put on an accent. Now, I'm not in favour of a non-British Bond, but this is the argument that would be raised if you are going to mention how British Colin Salmon is in comparison to non-British Black actors or Chinese actors.

You also make a comparsion between Salmon and Jet Li. I never once mentioned Jet Li as Bond. I said Russell Wong IF, and only IF they were somehow casting a Chinese Bond (since by casting a black Bond it should mean every nationality gets a chance). There's a reason for Wong rather than Li. Russell Wong can speak English well, is better built, taller than Jet Li and looks for a Chinese actor suitably Bondian.

Of course, if you do say that Colin Salmon is suitable Bond material by virtue of the fact he's British, then couldn't ANY British actor be Bond? There's nothing to say Bond isn't short, 5 ft tall and a weakling. Being tall is not any more a characteristic of Bond than being white. If Dudley Moore were still alive, maybe he could be Bond. After all he was British, bedded a few women in "10" and has worn a suit before. Heck, he even fought off some Russian spies in "Blame it on the Bellboy".

[Mister Asterix]

...
Of course, if you do say that Colin Salmon is suitable Bond material by virtue of the fact he's British, then couldn't ANY British actor be Bond? There's nothing to say Bond isn't short, 5 ft tall and a weakling. Being tall is not any more a characteristic of Bond than being white. If Dudley Moore were still alive, maybe he could be Bond. After all he was British, bedded a few women in "10" and has worn a suit before. Heck, he even fought off some Russian spies in "Blame it on the Bellboy".

Yes! Dean Gaffney is back in the Game!



[mra][right](He

[marktmurphy]

Evan- I'm flummoxed. How on earth did you hear of Dean bleedin' Gaffney all the way over there?

[Mister Asterix]

Evan- I'm flummoxed. How on earth did you hear of Dean bleedin' Gaffney all the way over there?

[mra]There was a rumour that he was signed as Bond last year so I looked him up. His potential as Bond was looking great, even has the scar, until I found out how tall he was. Of course, I

[Michigansoftball#1]

Of course, if you do say that Colin Salmon is suitable Bond material by virtue of the fact he's British, then couldn't ANY British actor be Bond?

Didn't Pierce Brosnan tap Salmon as the best person to replace him as 007?!

[Spoon]

Well, naturally that's not my point at all. Just because I think a Brit should play Bond, obviously doesn't mean I think any Brit should play Bond. Bond should still be tall, handsome, charming, etc.

Look, let's get this back on track. I do understand your essential point, I think. If someone says "Bond should be black," it's very reasonable to ask in response, "why black, specifically?" I think that's your point, and as far as that goes, I totally agree with that. But, there is not much else to be said about it; there is no reason why they should specifically set out to cast a black man. The real issue is whether the role should be cast in a color-blind manner.

I think the question the original poster was trying to smoke us out about, and the one that is really worthy of discussion, is not "should Bond be black?", but "must Bond be white?"

And to get even more to the point, if the most "Bondian" candidate in terms of Britishness/age/height/handsomeness/class/charm/etc. were not white, should that person be cast as Bond or not?

That last question is what this whole thing boils down to, I think.

Edited by Spoon, 19 September 2005 - 07:38 PM.

[WC]

Of course, if you do say that Colin Salmon is suitable Bond material by virtue of the fact he's British, then couldn't ANY British actor be Bond?

Didn't Pierce Brosnan tap Salmon as the best person to replace him as 007?!

Yeah, but how do you know that Brosnan wasn't suggesting that after he was "fired" from the role? Perhaps he was hoping for a Lazenby-type backlash after Connery. People might not accept Salmon, and demand that Brosnan come back to the role.

But then, even if he was serious, some of Brosnan's choices aren't exactly great. He seemed to think Die Another Day was good, especially the writing of Purvis and Wade.

[TortillaFactory]

He seemed to think Die Another Day was good, especially the writing of Purvis and Wade.

I had the same thought initially, but I think he has the point - the idea of Bond being captured and tortured, which we've all been secretly rooting for in a perverse corner of our minds, because the man is so damn LUCKY - that's good. It all went downhill from there, but I really don't think Brosnan is referring to lines like "They feast!" when he talks about the good bits of DAD.

It can be fun to stretch a character. "What if Bond is captured? What if he gets married? What if he's betrayed by his best friend?" etc. But it's possible to go to far, and, more to the point of this discussion, it's possible to go too far in directions that have no purpose. There's no point in making Bond black, just as there's no point in making Bond like tea or Disneyland. (Thank you, Gardner. Not.) It might be fun to do it, but ultimately it amuses no one but the person who created it.

[Donovan Mayne-Nicholls]

Hey, I've got an even better idea. Let's change his name to Peter Harris, let's make him Texan and change him from an MI6 agent to firefighter.
Regular people ask the "why couldn't Bond be black" party line all the time and it's all right. They're REGULAR PEOPLE and don't get what makes Bond special anyway. However, I find somewhat offensive for people who call themselves Bond fans to even utter it. If you want to change something is because you don't like it and if you don't like it you should ask yourself what you're doing here in the first place.

[marktmurphy]

[quote name='Mister Asterix' date='19 September 2005 - 19:20'][quote name='marktmurphy' date='19 September 2005 - 14:16']Evan- I'm flummoxed. How on earth did you hear of Dean bleedin' Gaffney all the way over there?

[/quote]

[mra]There was a rumour that he was signed as Bond last year so I looked him up. His potential as Bond was looking great, even has the scar, until I found out how tall he was. Of course, I

[Mister Asterix]

[quote name='marktmurphy' date='19 September 2005 - 16:16'][quote name='Mister Asterix' date='19 September 2005 - 19:20'][quote name='marktmurphy' date='19 September 2005 - 14:16']Evan- I'm flummoxed. How on earth did you hear of Dean bleedin' Gaffney all the way over there?

[/quote]

[mra]There was a rumour that he was signed as Bond last year so I looked him up. His potential as Bond was looking great, even has the scar, until I found out how tall he was. Of course, I

[Frostyak]

Can John Shaft be white?

I don't understand why people must make Bond a different character, of different origins. If you want a James Bond-like character who is black. Make one. If the movie is good enough people will go for it. If not then you will end up with another XXX franchise. Later tonight let us discuss Santa delivering presents from a flying Delorean and casting Vinnie Jones as Shaft.

I am all for there being a sophisticated globe-trotting secret agent of any ethnicity in a movie made as well or better than the Bond films. I will spend my money to see such a movie. But let it stand alone. It should not have to bank on the name of one of the world's most beloved characters in order to succeed if it is truly great.

- Chris

[BlackFelix]

I don't know if this has been said already but if it has then I'll be simply adding to it. I personally don't see anything wrong with there being a Black Bond! I think it's a hair spliting issue really, but if I must elaborate.To the best of my knowledge Bond is only described in the books as a tall dark man with brown eyes and black hair. That description basically fits the typical black man, providing height matches. Could shaft be White? No. Not without totally changing the premise of the character. Anyone who has watched a original Shaft movie will understand Shafts whole identity rests on and was born with the American Black civil rights movement in mind. Shaft was specifically created for and marketed specifically to Black America. Shaft is identified in films and print as being a Black male. If Shaft were to turn White, the entire context of the character would either have to change the whole psycholgy of the charcter and be changed to unrecognizible figure, If they want to play it straight. Or it would be a film about a White man trying to be a detective as a "eminem-type" and the entire film would be "8 mile" in a detective setting.

Now if Fleming intended for Bond to be portrayed by a Black man is another issue in itself, but the literary evidence is there in Black and white(no pun intended.) I think the points being made are rather repetative and weak, simply because bond has been played by White actors, therfore keep bond White?? After reading the books, only racial arrogance would assume bond to be White. It's not fair to think that the Bond character would be greatly dimminshed if, oh god forbid, a Black portrays him! I do belive that the idea of having a Black actor in the lead role of a mainstream hollywood movie in 1962 would not have been considered! Remember no mainstream leading parts hardly if ever went to Blacks until nearly the 1980's unless they were playing characiture or uncle tom roles. In 2005 if Dr. No was being produced I think it very feasible to consider a Black actor to have the part. James Bond first and formost is a British agent not a White man working for the British government or a Black man working for the British government. Matter of fact, the Bond character on film or book has never played to his "assumed" White-ness. Was the Felix Lieter ruined because Bernie Casey played him in NSNA? I BTW enjoyed Casey more than the Rik Van Nutter performance of Lieter in Thunderball. Or how about Ving Rhames as Kojak?

Again, I'm for a Black bond! Should the next actor to play bond be black? Only if he fits the part as far as acting, physicality, charm and humor is concerned also as long as the writers and directors don't play to it. The issue of race should be as important as his preference in soap. Non-existent. If an Black actor is to play him, he would have to play him totally straight and as a brit. Anything other would be a gimmick and wouold desrtoy the series. I think personally Salmon would make a splendid 007 he is more ideal than the current batch of contenders. But in the end I'm for one more round with Pierce.

Edited by BlackFelix, 20 September 2005 - 01:09 PM.

[SecretAgentFan]

Bond is a caucasian. Sorry. And the fact that one has to explain it is only due to PC. Could Superman be black? No. For exactly the same reasons. Of course, you could do a Bond film with a black Bond. And a superman film with a black superman. But it wouldn

[BlackFelix]

SecretAgentFan,

So are you saying that everything that makes Bond an iconic figure is based upon him being White? I always felt for the longest time it was the style of the films and the gadgets and locations. But if its him being white then I've obviously been missing something. And Superman from his creators Shuster and siegel have always imanged him to be white. In the 1st issue of ACTION COMICS in 1938 superman has always been drawn as a white male. A alien White male, but still White. Fleming has never once stated Bond was of any Racial specification. Only that he was British. Only assumption would say Bond to be White. And as far as I know the films should stay true to the character not true to the actors.

[Mister Asterix]

After reading the books, only racial arrogance would assume bond to be White...

(Mr. Big speaking of Bond and Leiter)

[SecretAgentFan]

Thank you, Mister Asterix. This quote makes any further discussion rather pointless.