205 replies to this topic

[hangeron]

Hello all

First time poster and all that, so forgive me if this (a) falls into the banned category of speculating on the new Bond or ( has been discussed a gazillion times before.

While the name of Adrian Lester has been raised at points, I don't think he'd be a good choice, just cos he stinks up the screen in 'Hustle'.

On the other handm Chitiwjel Eihofor (Love Actually, Dirty Pretty Things) would, in my opinion, be a great choice. I think it's high time for a black Bond.

Any thoughts?

[spynovelfan]

Welcome to CBN.

Yes, it's been discussed several times before. The last time it was - a few weeks back - I argued in favour of it, because I didn't see how it could affect the character of Bond, who some argued was intrinsically white. Someone - forget who now, sorry! - came up with what I'll now call The South Africa Defence. To my mind, a black actor should only be able to play James Bond if they do not need to alter the character in any substantial way to accommodate that - neither should the choice of actor force serious changes or limitations in the story. Agreed? However, a black actor would effectively mean you would not be able to set a story in South Africa or Zimbabwe, because you would be stretching plausibility to breaking point if a black Englishman was treated precisely the same as a white Englishman in those countries. Stretching it to a degree that there would be no good reason for the series to stretch it to.

In fact, I think you'd have to avoid Africa altogether. I agree that Chiwetel Ejiofor has a lot of the stuff that would make a great Bond. He's got an upper-class English accent in real life (he went to Dulwich College), and is able to project sophistication and menace very well (he even played a reasonably Bond-ish character in the dire TV series TRUST). He's a fine actor. He is also a second-generation Nigerian. If his Bond were to visit Africa, he would at some stage be asked where his parents were from. It's likely that any English second-generation African would. The reply - that he was of Scots and Swiss parentage - would be tricky to say the least. To summarise, casting a black Bond would mean you'd have to avoid plots in an entire continent. Bond would not be able to investigate conflict diamonds or have that fight on the roof of Yamoussoukro's cathedral. And they should never cast a Bond who limits the plots they can have... So, after a very long discussion about it, it's now no to a black Bond from me.

[YOLT]

I say in the future not now. The truth is because the black peoples genes are more dominant the world will be black in the future. So about 100 years later a black Bond is very possible. 100 years later %20-%30 of UK s population will be black so a black Bond will be a possibility. But not now. Also a mix-blodded black Bond will be supported more.

Edited by YOLT, 22 June 2005 - 09:40 AM.

[Skudor]

Yes. It's been discussed several times before. The last time it was - a few weeks back - I argued in favour of it, because I didn't see how it could affect the character of Bond, who some argued was intrinsically white. Someone - forget who now, sorry! - came up with what I'll now call The South Africa Defence. To my mind, a black actor should only be able to play James Bond if they do not need to alter the character in any substantial way to accommodate that - neither should the choice of actor  force serious changes or limitations in the story. Agreed? However, a black actor would effectively mean you would not be able to set a story in South Africa or Zimbabwe, because you would be stretching plausibility to breaking point if a black Englishman was treated precisely the same as a white Englishman in those countries. Stretching it to a degree that there would be no good reason for the series to stretch it to. I think you'd have to avoid Africa altogether, really. Chiwetel Ejiofor is a second-generation Nigerian. If his Bond were to visit Africa, he would at some stage be asked where his parents were from. It's likely that any English second-generation African would. The reply - that he was of Scots and Swiss parentage - would be tricky to say the least. To summarise, casting a black Bond would mean you'd have to avoid plots in an entire continent. Bond would not be able to investigate conflict diamonds or have that fight on the roof of Yamoussoukro's cathedral. And they should never cast a Bond who limits the plots they can have... So, after a very long discussion about it, it's now no to a black Bond from me.

Pretty much my position. Although I think the South Africa Defence is a bit stretched. Although it is logical, there is really no reason why a black Bond couldn't be treated exactly the same - as an Englishman. And turning it around, there's no reason why Bond wouldn't feel like any other Englishman who'd never visited. It wouldn't have to be an issue (although it could be).

As long as Bond is Bond (e.g. they don't start trying to explain why he's suddenly black), I don't care what colour his skin is.

[spynovelfan]

[quote name='Skudor' date='22 June 2005 - 09:44']Pretty much my position. Although I think the South Africa Defence is a bit stretched.

[David Schofield]

If a black Bond - presumably of black Scottish/Swiss heritage - is possible, why not make an even more, radical, hip Bond, black or otherwise? Trendy clothes, fatigues, trainers, whatever's considered trendy amongs the younger viewers who go to multiplexes? Hoodies?

Hell, Bond has to be an overdressed, up tight public school/military Englishman (he's as Scottish as Rod Stewart) and very, very WHITE.

[Skudor]

[quote name='spynovelfan' date='22 June 2005 - 10:59'][quote name='Skudor' date='22 June 2005 - 09:44']Pretty much my position. Although I think the South Africa Defence is a bit stretched.

[David Schofield]

Hey, maybe we could have a black actor and PRETEND he's white! You know - hasn't it been done with Othello?

[Skudor]

Hey, maybe we could have a black actor and PRETEND he's white! You know - hasn't it been done with Othello?

That's basically what it would have to be.

[spynovelfan]

If a black Bond - presumably of black Scottish/Swiss heritage - is possible, why not make an even more, radical, hip Bond, black or otherwise? Trendy clothes, fatigues, trainers, whatever's considered trendy amongs the younger viewers who go to multiplexes? Hoodies?

But nobody's suggesting that, are they? I thought what we were discussing would be a black actor who would be portraying an overdressed public school-educated Englishman with a military background (I don't think Bond is uptight). And that I do think could now be a black actor. Someone in the other thread made the point that Othello's colour is not crucial to the play, but simply Iago's animosity to him. True, but his colour is neverthless *specified*, so one would have to change the words:

'Zounds, sir, you're robb'd; for shame, put on
your gown;
Your heart is burst, you have lost half your soul;
Even now, now, very now, an old black ram
Is topping your white ewe.'

I don't agree that Bond is very very white. What's important is that he's a member of the British establishment - perfectly possible if you're black in 2005. He was white when Fleming created him, but then he was also racist and sexist, and he isn't (really) now. I'd say his outlook on life, his tastes, his background and his personality are all far more important than his colour. In Fleming's books, Bond is a heavy smoker - it's something quite important to his character. He's often trying to give up, for example. In the recent films he doesn't smoke at all, bar one cigar in Cuba. I think his smoking habit is more integral to his character than his colour in Fleming's work - don't you? And yet we're fairly happy to accept a non-smoking Bond. Why not a black Bond, then?

I think there are a few black actors who could play the James Bond I know and it not make any difference at all. My objection rests on the fact that the world hasn't yet moved on quite enough for it not to limit the stories one could produce. Until it does, and having a black actor play Bond would make no difference at all, I'll object, in Larry Groznic style in pointless threads such as this, to the idea of a black Bond.

[Mister Asterix]

[mra]

[Stephenson]

IMO, the fact that we are even discussing the inherent problems or benefits that would come from making Bond black means it shouldn't be done. For me, a very large part of the appeal of Bond is that he is a two dimensional fantasy character (a "cardboard booby") who I can live through vicariously. He doesn't really interact with the rest of the world and instead seems to carry his own private universe around with him: he doesn't fight armies, he fights evil henchmen; he doesn't fight corrupt governments, he fights individual supervillains, and each battle is uniquely his own. If Bond was to be black there would inevitably be the question of when he would tackle racism in one form or another. And while discrimination is unquestionably a serious issue in need of serious discussion and exploration, it is a real world issue and so, IMO, doesn't really have a place in Bond's movie universe. And, however I may feel about it, the reality is that for the last forty-odd years, this universe has been built around a white man, with all the pros and cons that entails: it is what the general public (and me) are used to. If you fundamentally change the man you fundamentally change that universe and they cease to be "Bond" movies. I feel the same way about using a Middle East terrorist group as a major plot device in the movies.

[Righty007]

Changing the race of James Bond would be like amending the Constitution so that Arnold Schwarzenegger can run for president. It won't happen!

If you want to see a black spy then see xXx: State of the Union.

[spynovelfan]

IMO, the fact that we are even discussing the inherent problems or benefits that would come from making Bond black means it shouldn't be done. For me, a very large part of the appeal of Bond is that he is a two dimensional fantasy character (a "cardboard booby") who I can live through vicariously. He doesn't really interact with the rest of the world and instead seems to carry his own private universe around with him: he doesn't fight armies, he fights evil henchmen; he doesn't fight corrupt governments, he fights individual supervillains, and each battle is uniquely his own. If Bond was to be black there would inevitably be the question of when he would tackle racism in one form or another. And while discrimination is unquestionably a serious issue in need of serious discussion and exploration, it is a real world issue and so, IMO, doesn't really have a place in Bond's movie universe.

Well put. I agree with pretty much all of that, especially regarding Bond's character. Perhaps it's the fact that he's so two-dimensional that means I'm not so set against the idea - I don't really buy all the stuff about 'you can't mess with Bond's character like this!' because 1. He doesn't really have that much of a character to start with and 2. His ethnicity is hardly very important to it. On that point, I think the fact that Bond is British is much more important, but we've had an Australian in the role. I think the fact that his *tastes* are British is more important than his colour, and the whole Brioni-isation of Bond is a much greater calumny than changing the colour of his skin. Of course Fleming's creation was white, but it isn't even as important as his snobbery about clothes.

I take the point about the 'real world', but I do think it would have been possible for Colin Salmon to have played the lead role in THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH without any changes being made. Theoretically speaking, of course, in the film - the publicity would have been out of control. But I can squint and imagine him doing that and them just leaving the racism thing aside. The point on which I concede is that for Salmon or another black (or Asian) actor to be Bond for more than one film, there has to at least be the possibility that he can visit one of the world's continents without some serious fudging having to go on with the script to make it work. Making it a little jokier to accommodate Roger Moore, or a little darker to accommodate Dalton, is one thing - this would rule out a lot of ideas, and I don't like the idea of "working around" the actor to that extent. It should be a Bond film that any of the actors could have been in.

So I don't advocate a black Bond. However, I do find some of the arguments against it a little bizarre. Repeated insistences that BOND IS WHITE!, which we got a lot of last time this came up, don't impress me at all. I'm not for a black Bond - but I am for Eon experimenting, and it's the *kind* of thing I'd at least like Purvis adn Wade to be kicking around as they sit in their bachelor pads surfing CBN and flicking through COLONEL SUN for more ideas to pinch. The idea that Fleming's creation can't be radically altered is absurd enough - he was never a very complex character anyway, and he's been altered plenty; the idea that his ethnicity is somehow sacred leaves me quite cold, especially with nothing to back up why that's the case. It just feels like the knee-jerk "What is the world coming to?" kind of thing people like to get stirred up about - but I think it's for no especially compelling reason in this case. The way some people react whenever this comes up, you'd have thought Eon had actually announced Colin Salmon in the role. As it is, it's just (to me) a fun idea to bat about.

[Stephenson]

I think the fact that people have very little argument besides "Bond is white" exemplifies how important tradition is in the Bond universe. I don't really see this as being an issue of logic. Logically, I agree with you that Bond could be of indian, african, asian ethnicity and it shouldn't matter as long as he is British and the meager info of his background is kept consistant. But Bond movies are all about fantasy and suspension of disbelief, which is inherently illogical. IMO, we have been willing to suspend our disbelief and invest ourselves emotionally in this franchise for over forty years for a simple reason: we trust that the main character is going to take us on a good ride. And he is an easy guy to trust: he hasn't changed much in forty years and he isn't particularly deep, so what you see is pretty much what you get. If you radically change Bond (and changing skin colour is pretty radical), then emotionally it is going to be harder to enter into that universe and suspend disbelief because the gateway character is no longer the same man we know, no matter how much his mannerisms may resemble Bond's. IMO, it is already hard enough to ask the audience to buy into the Bond world. It is very shaky business keeping this fantasy universe running smoothly, and when something crosses a line (shooting lasers in space, invisible cars, tarazan yells, etc.) it all becomes very shaky very quickly. IMO, changing Bond that dramatically would shake everything to the ground for no other reason than the audience knows and likes Bond the way he is.

Besides all that, it would just feel like stunt casting and smell of desperation. Now, maybe for an "alternate universe" graphic novel or something like that it would work.

[Sam Fisher]

Absolutely not. Forgive me for disagreeing. If the producers or even Eon went in that direction it would defenately be then end of the franchise.

However, I'm not or never will be aginst aginst African European actors to create something akin to James Bond as long as it's original and well written.

If I've offended anyone I deeply apologize.

[rogermoore007]

I remember this topic. I argued with spynovelfan and it became a heated argument about racism...uh oh
Nah, I'm not starting another one but I still stand by the opinion that Bond is originally white and it should stay that way.

[hrabb04]

I think James Bond should be a lesbian. C'mon, it won't be that much of a stretch if you think about it!

[hcmv007]

I agree with Sam Fisher and rogermoore007, Bond is white. End of discussion. Can you imagine a white guy playing Shaft? How about a white Blade? Let's replace Kato (from the Green Hornet) with a latin actor while we're at it.

[spynovelfan]

I remember this topic. I argued with spynovelfan and it became a heated argument about racism...uh oh 

Is more than unfair. I made damn sure I never accused anyone of being a racist. It was a heated argument about whether or not Bond could be black - it wasn't about racism.

[spynovelfan]

I agree with Sam Fisher and rogermoore007, Bond is white.  End of discussion. 

Well, you convinced me.

[Atticus17F]

I think the fact that Bond is British is much more important, but we've had an Australian in the role. I think the fact that his *tastes* are British is more important than his colour, and the whole Brioni-isation of Bond is a much greater calumny than changing the colour of his skin.

I suppose, at a stretch, I can accept a 21st Century Bond buying his suits off the peg and all that, but BrosnanBond did seem to have problems with his nationality. Don't know whose idea it was to have James Bond shouting things like "Yo!" and "Jinx, ya gotta git outta here!", not to mention his banging on about "cellphones", "elevators" and "station breaks", but it made him sound like a wanker.

Interestingly, I can imagine Denzel Washington's delivery of those lines and it doesn't hurt my ears at all.

[Taro Todoroki]

Oh no, not this topic again!

[Tarl_Cabot]

Bond is a white male.Get over it. If you make him black he's not the same character so create your own suave debonair secret agent hero..how about _____________009(insert your name idea here)?.His socio-political-economic world view would be totally different if his race were changed. It's not just a superficial attribute we're talking about here.*sigh*

[hrabb04]

I think Prince should be Bond. He could write, direct, and do all of the music himself. At the very least, Die Another Day will then look like a masterpiece.

[Skudor]

This is an amusing discussion of something entirely abstract. I think one thing peoples' opinions show here is how they view Bond (well, at least the ones that give a reason for their opinions) - what defines him in their eyes.

I used to be dead against the idea of a black Bond, until I gave it some thought.

Now please, someone, give us a rumour to chew on.

[spynovelfan]

His socio-political-economic world view would be totally different if his race were changed.

I don't think that would necessarily be the case. Of course it would be different - but perhaps not so different it couldn't simply be ignored. A black 35-year-old man could have been raised his entire life in the UK. He could have attended Eton, Fettes and Cambridge, and then joined MI6. He could be right-wing, drive an Aston Martin, wear tailored suits, live in Chelsea, be a member of a London club, have had a string of girlfriends after the tragic death of his wife an unspecified number of years ago, have no discernible taste in culture and yet know all about it, be dry, arrogant and charming, but essentially soulless. He could save the world on demand every few years. All we have in the films of Bond's socio-political-economic world view is this kind of thing - it's not exactly gone into in tremendous detail, is it? I think race *is* a superficial attribute... to the character of James Bond. I don't favour the idea, for reasons gone into, but I don't find it nearly as outrageous as some do. I'd find the casting of Colin Salmon as Bond infinitely preferable to Colin Farrell, Dougray Scott or Adrian Paul, for example. I think he's a lot more Bond-ish than any of them.

[hangeron]

2 questions?

1) As the Bond film series has developed and the actors have changed, has it bee the understanding that they ae portraying the EXACT same character, or that there have been a series of 007s, each one following on from the last - admittedly very similar - incumbent?

2) Assuming it is meant to be the same character, there is still a hel of a lot of belief-suspension that is necessary to watch the films. Not in terms of his ker-azy stunts, but in as much as M suddenly became a woman didn't she? Plus, Simpsons-like, he does not age while the world around him changes. The producers of the film have never tried to make him a time-bound character. Bond is not set in the 70s or 80s or 90s, it is set in the day the film is made.

If we can suspend our disbelief to accomodate these things, then why not enouh to accept a black Bond?

The 'Bond IS White argument' does not wash with me I'm afraid. It is an easy answer - can you be honest and say that there is nothing at all underlying this? Nothing that makes some people inherently undeasy about the idea of a black man representing the old symbol of stiff-upper-lip heterosexual britishness that is Bond?

Convince me.

[spynovelfan]

Cat. Meet pigeons.

[Mister Asterix]

2 questions?

1) As the Bond film series has developed and the actors have changed, has it bee the understanding that they ae portraying the EXACT same character, or that there have been a series of 007s, each one following on from the last - admittedly very similar - incumbent?

2) Assuming it is meant to be the same character, there is still a hel of a lot of belief-suspension that is necessary to watch the films.  Not in terms of his ker-azy stunts, but in as much as M suddenly became a woman didn't she? Plus, Simpsons-like, he does not age while the world around him changes.  The producers of the film have never tried to make him a time-bound character.  Bond is not set in the 70s or 80s or 90s, it is set in the day the film is made. 

If we can suspend our disbelief to accomodate these things, then why not enouh to accept a black Bond?

The 'Bond IS White argument' does not wash with me I'm afraid.  It is an easy answer - can you be honest and say that there is nothing at all underlying this?  Nothing that makes some people inherently undeasy about the idea of a black man representing the old symbol of stiff-upper-lip heterosexual britishness that is Bond?

Convince me.

[mra]1)Yup, it