205 replies to this topic

[spynovelfan]

Well, that's a fair enough view - although your desire to have an exceedingly faithful Fleming adaptation is just as theoretical as mine is to see Colin Salmon play Bond. Neither will happen, because neither would succeed at the box office, and that's what they're making the films for. Just as a large group of people would kick up a storm if a non-white actor was cast as Bond, a large group of people - parents, families of cancer sufferers, and so on - would kick up a storm if a Bond film remained that faithful to the books.

But why pick on this particular problem, if you feel this way? There's no chance that they'll make a film with a black Bond - but they're already making films that feature a character far removed from Fleming's, and yet I don't see you worrying elsewhere that they're making fun of Fleming. And yet they have changed the character.

[ernst stavro b.]

There's no chance that they'll make a film with a black Bond - but they're already making films that feature a character far removed from Fleming's, ...

Do you really think so?
Do you think, anyone in the 60s would have thought about a Bond girl like Jiny? No, because it was another time.
Times will change, and so the characters will do.

Jinx is far away from Fleming.
Another 40 years forward, and Bond will also be far away from Fleming.
The only thing MG Wilson and B. Broccoli want to is making money. And they did make money with a Jinx character.
And if they will make money with a back Bond, they will do that step forward, too.
Another step far away from Fleming.
That's why nobody knows teh original creation anymore. It's past, who cares?

... and yet I don't see you worrying elsewhere that they're making fun of Fleming. And yet they have changed the character.

Of course they have changed the character.
And another change will probably turning the skin colour into black. And that change is what I describe as "making fun of Fleming", because it's too far away from his creation.
If you would bake a white cake and would be proud of it, and if someone else would put chocolate into it, wouldnt you think that he makes fun of you? That would be blasphemy.

MfG
ernst

[spynovelfan]

I'm just responding to what you posted.

'After all, everyone who tries to change the character created by Fleming, would make fun of this great author.'

They have changed the character, quite substantially. My argument is that Bond's smoking, drinking, racism, sexism and other traits are substantially more important in Fleming's novels and stories than the colour of his skin. If you disagree, try to use logic to argue why not, rather than repeating it's wrong, blasphemy and so on. Not interested in that, sorry. And perhaps in the process think about why you feel that getting rid of or seriously weakening those characteristics, *which you claim are integral and should be brought back*, is not making fun of this great author, but changing the colour of his skin, is. Not just saying it is, ad infinitum. Why.

[ACE]

Boy, SNF, you really are a glutton for punishment!

ACE

[Robinson]

Look, there are good points for a black Bond.  I just think it's ridiculous.  But, and this may start a new thread, how about a film based on Robinson?  I have seen Colin Salmon act in other things and think he is a wonderful actor.  This could give those desiring a black Bond the chance to see black British spy acting just like Bond.  I've read a lot of posts here, and it seems Salmon has a lot of fans amongst all of you(me included).  That could do a lot for the franchise, and we would get to see another side of an interesting character.

And this is where I weigh in.

We've discussed this in past threads and I've talked about the merits and drawbacks of "non-traditional casting" in current cinema. I stand by my declaration:

James Bond has been established as a white/Anglo-Saxon male and it won't change at any point in time and I've no problem with that.

I think the Charles Robinson character is compelling enough to have a novel based on his experiences and possible adventures. I'm trying to develop a storyline as to how he became part of MI6 and why M placed him on her staff.

As for a Bond of color, I feel it's time for us (Africans and African-Americans) to develop our own stories and to create our own Bonds, Indiana Jones, Jason Bournes, etc. There's no need for a Black James T. Kirk, when you have Benjamin Sisko holding it down for seven seasons on "Deep Space Nine."

I look at Wesley Snipes' The Art of War and feel that, as contrived and derivative as the film was, it offered a glimpse as to what could be. You'd think that with all that's going on in the Middle East, Africa and Asia that there aren't assets and operatives of color doing their thing? Granted it may not be Bondian (unrealistic in the "real" world) but it's a place to start.

I enjoy the Bond series for what it is but I want nothing more than a good story mature dialogue and plenty of eye-candy for 2 hours and 20 or so minutes. Anything else, reeks of gimmickery and I feel that people of color as well as the general moviegoing audience deserve more than that.

[wibg]

I agree with you Robinson, the character of James Bond is what he is and shall stay that way; but, presenting a "black like bond" in a lead role is going to be a challenge; especially here in the U.S. Seems like an agent like XXX for example wearing baggy jeans and Timpers is more exceptable than a British black agent wearing a tux. I often wondered if an agent on the exchange program, from the U.S., was appointed to be 007's associate; however, the agent has a bit of an attitude problem, defiant towards authority, that sort of thing. To make the story more appealing, Jinx could also return as the agent's former girlfriend.
They continuously arque, fuss and fight; but James is the constant referee and cupid. This could be a good intro to the character, (the black agent) and give the character Jinx a reboot. EON was going to do a spinoff of Jinx; but, because of artistic differences, that project never got off the ground.

[Loomis]

From http://www.drummedia...DF172A3CFE3A529:

I visited four of the Internet's most popular Doctor Who and James Bond fan-sites and left near identical messages on each of their discussion forums. Posing as a 'lifelong fan, but first-time poster', I very gently suggested that maybe it would be 'cool' to have a black Bond or Doctor, and proposed Dirty Pretty Things actor Chitiwel Eijofor as a potential candidate. I left it at that and returned to these web forums a few days later. I was astonished at the response my messages provoked.

It is only fair to say, at this point, that I embarked on this experiment with a slightly haughty attitude, expecting these fan-site messageboards to be populated by socially maladroit loners and autistic, virginal fanboys. I anticipated some easy laughs at their expense and a simple job in pulling apart what I expected to be their simplistic, hostile responses to my suggestion.

What I instead found was many hundreds of cogent, lucid, if occasionally nerdish replies to a question that had obviously been raised and considered before. A number of posters were quite open to the idea of a black Doctor or Bond and constructed compelling arguments in its favour. The majority, however, objected to the idea for reasons that ranged from the absurdly convoluted to the nakedly hostile.

A typical response on one of the Bond forums read as follows:

"Bond is white. End of discussion. Can you imagine a white guy playing Shaft? How about a white Blade? Let's replace Kato (from The Green Hornet) with a latino actor while we're at it?"

The 'Bond is just white' argument was a recurring one and prompted my only other contribution to any of the discussions other than my original messages. Why, I asked, did the Bond fans' necessarily considerable ability to suspend disbelief fail when the question of their hero's ethnicity is raised. This is the suspension of disbelief necessary to accommodate a character who, Simpsons-style, refuses to age. The celluloid incarnation of 007 is not a period character. Bond films are not set in the 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s; they are set in the day that the film is made. The fact that Bond is a character who blithely skips from decade to decade

[Bon-san]

Cool find, Loomis.

And good on ya', snf.

[spynovelfan]

Fame at last!

So this entire thread was just a trollfest for some journalist? Christ, I wish my editor would let me do that kind of piece. I'd love to be able to categorise the bollocks I write in this place as 'work'.

Loomis, can I ask how you found this?

[Loomis]

Loomis, can I ask how you found this?

Bored, I did a Google News search on "bond", in the expectation of seeing the same old rubbish about "Craig in talks for Bond?", "Visnjic speaks out on 007 audition", "Brosnan wooed for Casino Royale" and so on (and, okay, in the hope of actually finding some new and interesting information on CR/Bond 6), and this article was one of the pieces that came up.

[Captain Indigo]

I can see a black Dr Who but not a black James Bond

[ACE]

I first refer to posts 92-96 on this thread.

"Anyway, my feeling is the raising of the topic especially by newspapers is a slightly cynical way to achieve column inches. It is a sensationalist exploration of something the author of the story does actually even believe in."

QED

The point about stating a "black Bond" is reductive and sensationalist and vaguely offensive because of it. Why not Chinese? Indian? Arabic? Jewish? Short? Or does Black shorthand for non-conventional Bondian casting and cover all these options for the person raising the question? What do people really mean when you say "Black"? And why do they mean it? And why do they exclude others by framing the question in that manner?

Secondly, Dr Who as a fictional character is so fundamentally different in conceit and format to Bond. Dr Who CAN be anything. He can be black or a she, even.

It depends on how you see Bond as represented in film. While it is removed from what Ian Fleming wrote, I see all incarnations of the filmic character as capturing the spirit and essence of the man from the novels. I don't think in cinematic terms, Bond is himself, so removed in basic terms from what Ian Fleming wrote.

ACE

Edited by ACE, 14 September 2005 - 02:21 PM.

[Loomis]

[quote name='ACE' date='14 September 2005 - 14:10']The point about stating a "black Bond" is reductive and sensationalist and vaguely offensive because of it. Why not Chinese? Indian? Arabic? Jewish? Short? Or does Black shorthand for non-conventional Bondian casting and cover all these options for the person raising the question? What do you really mean when you say "Black"?

[Mister Asterix]

[mra]I thought I presented a very reasonable, rational arguments to why the character of Bond should be white. Yet the article seems make it seem that everyone arguing that gave simple, unintellectual arguments. Now there have been those. A lot of those. Posts based on passion over reason. (Nothing wrong with passion, but with out some reason to back it up you really won

[Loomis]

I thought I presented a very reasonable, rational arguments to why the character of Bond should be white. Yet the article seems make it seem that everyone arguing that gave simple, unintellectual arguments.

For me, the article seems to imply that anyone who raises any kind of objection to the idea of a black Bond must be (consciously or otherwise) racist. It appears that hangeron (the author of the Drum Magazine article and the starter of this thread) thought: right, I'm just going to pop into these lamebrained and geeky fansites, say "I think it's high time for a black Bond", and then sit back and take as evidence of racism any and all replies that are in any way anti the idea.

hangeron also suggests that Britain is not "prepared to accept a black face as being in some way representative of the country". Is this really true? Not sure that it is. Where's the evidence? Where are the indications that (white) Brits, on the whole, will not even concede that black Brits are even "in some way" representative of their country?

Obviously, hangeron was here purely for work reasons, but it's a pity that he or she didn't really stick around to engage in debate.

[hcmv007]

And this is where I weigh in.

We've discussed this in past threads and I've talked about the merits and drawbacks of "non-traditional casting" in current cinema. I stand by my declaration:

James Bond has been established as a white/Anglo-Saxon male and it won't change at any point in time and I've no problem with that.

I think the Charles Robinson character is compelling enough to have a novel based on his experiences and possible adventures. I'm trying to develop a storyline as to how he became part of MI6 and why M placed him on her staff.

As for a Bond of color, I feel it's time for us (Africans and African-Americans) to develop our own stories and to create our own Bonds, Indiana Jones, Jason Bournes, etc. There's no need for a Black James T. Kirk, when you have Benjamin Sisko holding it down for seven seasons on "Deep Space Nine."

I look at Wesley Snipes' The Art of War and feel that, as contrived and derivative as the film was, it offered a glimpse as to what could be. You'd think that with all that's going on in the Middle East, Africa and Asia that there aren't assets and operatives of color doing their thing? Granted it may not be Bondian (unrealistic in the "real" world) but it's a place to start.

I enjoy the Bond series for what it is but I want nothing more than a good story mature dialogue and plenty of eye-candy for 2 hours and 20 or so minutes. Anything else, reeks of gimmickery and I feel that people of color as well as the general moviegoing audience deserve more than that.

Perfectly put, Robinson.

[Captain Indigo]

leave the best spy in the world white

[Mister Asterix]

leave the best spy in the world white

[mra]You

[Loomis]

leave the best spy in the world white

Actually, I've no problem with a non-white actor as Jason Bourne. I doubt that Matt Damon will want to do more than one or two more sequels, so I'm sure they'll be looking for a new guy before too many years have gone by.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Does anyone else feel like we got burned big time by this guy?

I'm sad my 'Bond as a trained circus bear' comment didn't make the cut.

[Mister Asterix]

leave the best spy in the world white

Actually, I've no problem with a non-white actor as Jason Bourne...

[mra]Oh, come on, Loom, Jason Bourne is a great spy and all but he

[Spoon]

I think it was very, very poor journalistic ethics to "troll" for peoples' views in such a way. If you are speaking to someone with the purpose of doing journalistic work about them, they should be aware of that, and if you're going to directly quote them, you should get their permission to use their words. At least under US law, copyright resides in any "tangible means of expression," which includes an Internet post, so there's that issue, plus it's just the proper thing to do. Exceptions to these rules can be made for investigative reports into serious matters, of course; if a reporter overhears a politician saying something terrible, he/she probably shouldn't bother to ask the politician's permission to print it. But surely for a total fluff article like this, there is no reason at all why it couldn't have been done the "right" way.

That said... the guy has a helluva point. It always seemed to me that there were people who posted in this thread and not much elsewhere on the board. They always seemed to be anti-black Bond. And this thread always seemed to be getting bumped back up, seemingly usually by anti-black Bond posters with few total posts, and usually their post would be something like "Bond is white, period." For something that has no chance in hell of happening any time in the foreseeable future, people certainly seemed to feel very threatened by it nonetheless. What does it say about you if your MAIN concern about Bond, based on your participation in these forums, is that he be white? Or that you're fearful of and defensive about losing a status quo that, really, you're in no danger of losing to begin with?

I'm not British, so I can't speak to what anything says about the British people. And certainly, many anti-black Bond people are fantastic fans who have thought about the Bond character in depth and can eloquently explain why they understand the character that way. I do really wonder, though, about those who are far more passionate about this issue than anything else Bond-related. It's not my place to judge other peoples' hearts, but I wouldn't be too proud of myself were that me, is all I can say.

Edited by Spoon, 14 September 2005 - 06:26 PM.

[killkenny kid]

As, a black male I want this whole idea to go away.

[Hotwinds]

I thought it was a mistake to make James West black in the "Wild Wild West" movie and I think it is a bigger mistake to make James Bond Black.
He was invented the way he was and leave it at that.
Besides, you have a black Bond of sorts with XXX right?

Hello all

First time poster and all that, so forgive me if this (a) falls into the banned category of speculating on the new Bond or ( has been discussed a gazillion times before.

While the name of Adrian Lester has been raised at points, I don't think he'd be a good choice, just cos he stinks up the screen in 'Hustle'.

On the other handm Chitiwjel Eihofor (Love Actually, Dirty Pretty Things) would, in my opinion, be a great choice.  I think it's high time for a black Bond.

Any thoughts?

[Mister Asterix]

I thought it was a mistake to make James West black in the "Wild Wild West" movie and I think it is a bigger mistake to make James Bond Black.
He was invented the way he was and leave it at that.
Besides, you have a black Bond of sorts with XXX right?

XXX is a great example. (God, did I just say that?) When they wanted to make a black XXX they made him a different person.

[spynovelfan]

I thought it was a mistake to make James West black in the "Wild Wild West" movie and I think it is a bigger mistake to make James Bond Black.
He was invented the way he was and leave it at that.
Besides, you have a black Bond of sorts with XXX right?

*You*?

XXX is a great example. (God, did I just say that?) When they wanted to make a black XXX they made him a different person.

I think Vin Diesel's a perfect example of why it could feasibly now work with Bond. Check this out:

http://www.alternet.org/story/13863

Could this guy play Bond?



That's Wentworth Miller, and the still is from THE HUMAN STAIN. He is playing an African-American character. Miller is apparently of African-American, Jamaican, English, German, French, Dutch, Syrian and Lebanese descents. But look at the picture - could he not play Bond? It's reductive to talk about it in this way, because ethnicity can be extremely complex in one person. Miller was born in England - had he grown up there, I think he'd be a much better candidate. For me at any rate, his being more American than English by whatever one might define as 'culture' would be more of a stumbling block to him playing the part than the fact that he has African-American and Jamaican ancestry. Again, more than accent - culture. Goran Visjnic might be able to do a perfect accent, but Bond has to be Bond all the time, basically. I'd take Miller over Goran any day - but some people would say that Miller is 'black', just as you saw Vin Diesel as not being black.

[ACE]

but some people would say that Miller is 'black'

Who? Stevie Wonder?

[spynovelfan]

Well, he's got African-American and Jamaican ancestry. He played an African-American in THE HUMAN STAIN. You see the point, I guess? What 'colour' is Mariah Carey? My grandparents came from the Ukraine, and moved to Glasgow. They didn't speak a word of English. Anyone meeting me now would say I was British - not Ukrainian. Only two generations there. I think the issue with Bond is more about culture than race, but both are flexible and relative terms.

Could someone whose grand-parents were non-Caucasian play James Bond? Great-grandparents? Great-great-great grandparents? It all becomes a bit tenuous. This guy has African-American, Jamaican, English, German, French, Dutch, Syrian and Lebanese descents.

If he can look and sound like James Bond convincingly, though, I would have no problem with him being cast. In fact, I think he's quite a good candidate. Another guy of similar descent wouldn't necessarily.

Can't believe I'm back in this thread.

[Loomis]

leave the best spy in the world white

Actually, I've no problem with a non-white actor as Jason Bourne. I doubt that Matt Damon will want to do more than one or two more sequels, so I'm sure they'll be looking for a new guy before too many years have gone by.

Could this guy play Bond?

Maybe. Looks to me like he'd be a fine choice for Bourne, though.

[spynovelfan]

Good call. And might happen.