102 replies to this topic

[JimmyBond]

I love LTK, I certantly wouldnt call it the best Bond. Its in my top 5 favorites, I certanly dont know if I could say any one Bond film is my favorite.

[MDSmith]

I use to hate LTK but it grew on me. It is a harder edged Bond, but the enimies are great, the women are fine, I think a lot of people don't like it because Bond is a rogue agent.

[Victor Zokas]

Unbelievably, in the UK one of the main national channels has shown at least twice now the full uncut version of LTK. This went out about 7.30 pm each time.

The video version I had was the original 15 cert version. The region 1 and 2 DVD releases both went for the US version which has less cuts than in Europe. But this version on TV was the full uncut version as only released in Japan.

Compared to the UK 15 version, you get to see Lupe getting whipped. There is a godd 30 seconds more of Leiter meeting the shark. You get to see Krest's head explode rather than just the aftermath. Most gruesome is the extended version of Dario's legs going through the mincer.

All this from a TV channel that usually censors every knife out of a Bond. YOLT was much shorter with no shurikens in sight.

[Bondpurist]

LTK was a fine, fine film. It was gritty, realistic, and bristling with emotion. It broke with the tired JB formula of Bomb/war/meglomaniac, and, in being believable, was much more scary than,say, TSWLM. Dalton builds up Bond's character superbly and his acting is absolutely brilliant - the anger, devastation, sorrow on his face, the powerful portrayal of a man enraged - he had it all. There were two superb Bond girls, and the resignation scene is amazing - it showcases the best M/Bond scene since the Lee days, and at last shows Bond outpouring all the tension and dislike that has built up over the years. Dalton just boils with hate, and his delivery of some of his lines in particular makes one simply lie down with awe at the power behind his ability to become whoever he plays - 'watch the birdie you bastard' springs to mind especially as a prime example of Dalton's ability to convey Bond's human urge to avenge the Leiters. This is very similar to the novel YOLT where Bond avenges Tracy - his urge for revenge is so very strong that he would lay down and die if it meant that Tracy would be avenged and could rest in peace. Dalton gets absurdly closeto Fleming's 007. The best feature of LTK is the fact that, for the first time, Bond is shown as being human. Before he has acted like a machine, a non human who doesn't even act as if he cares about being dead or alive. His defiance of M, his break with duty and service, his powerful hunger to bring Sanchez to an awful end, and his code of honour andd loyalty not to the service but to his best friend make Bond seem what he never before seemed - human.
As well as this the film contains some superb action sequences - most
notably the wavekrest/seaboat sequence and the Oil tankers sequence. These are the most spectacular yet still plausible and realistic stunts ever featured in a Bond film. LTK has everything!

[PaulZ108]

I really like Dalton's Bond, and I like the idea of a hard-edged screen portrayal of Fleming's Bond, but something about LTK doesn't work for me. I can't really explain it. I love the film, but not nearly to the extent that I love its predecessor.

[Predator_007]

Originally posted by Jim

I just can't love it though.

You're not in the minority at all ....

I used to REALLY hate this film - I umed and ured and finally sat down to watch it again about a month ago. It's certainly not the best Bond (IMO it's the worst), but it does have some very bright spots.

I think Sanchez is OK, but given the time when LTK was made, he was too much the Miami Vice villain. Unfortunate that, given that Glen made such an effort to make the WHOLE film like an overly long episode of Miami Vice. Dario's character should have been a lot better. Since LTK we've seen in other films how strong an actor Benicio del Toro is - how come they used him as a simple thug (that close-up of his eyes all the time just seemed clumsy and stupid). All the other villains were cardboard cut-outs, esp Truman Lodge and Milton Krest.

The Bond girls were OK, and at least there were two of them, but neither could act nor seem remotely 'involved' in the film (Talisa Soto's character seemed a carbon copy of Domino in Thunderball, but far less attractive).

David Hedison, for me, always will be the face I imagine for Felix Leiter and he was great in LTK (if underused, for obvious reasons). Unfortunately, Della Leiter was annoying.

Q's increased presence was very enjoyable (but, if you think about it, a little out of character as he briefly turned into a loveable old grandpa of a character - luckily by Goldeneye he was back to his erascible old self)

The locations were dull (and for goodness sake, just call it Panama City or change the location). Incidentally, I'm thinking, Isthmus is the first time Bond ever went to a fictional country ...

The title and the soundtrack were forgettable, the Kenworth truck scenes were OK, until that truck wheelie (as bad as the mini taxi wheelie in Octopussy) - which was plain silly.

All of this is dwarfed by Dalton's confused portrayal of Bond - he hadn't seemed to have learned anything since TLD, in fact I think he forgot everything. Dalton was schizophrenic as Bond in LTK - one minute all pent up rage, bulgy eyes and veins on his forehead, the next all goofy and lovey-dovey.

Not my favourite then ....

[ChandlerBing]

"All of this is dwarfed by Dalton's confused portrayal of Bond - he hadn't seemed to have learned anything since TLD, in fact I think he forgot everything. Dalton was schizophrenic as Bond in LTK - one minute all pent up rage, bulgy eyes and veins on his forehead, the next all goofy and lovey-dovey."

Granted, Dalton was a nut, but he trained to be an intense nut on the stage. Where he comes from, it takes them 30 minutes to complete a death scene due to all the staggering around and grunting and groaning.

[RevolveR]

This might be my first post, but I have been watching these foms for some time. To start, Timothy Dalton was by far the worst Bond. He made very little contribution to the series. TLD was a good movie, mainly because it had some humor. LTK played like a "bad 80's cop flick." The rougue Bond can only be descibed as ridiculous. Dalton over acts the whole entire movie. I find it boring and needlessly dramatic. Dalton is horrible. BTW, Bond purist must be Timothy Dalton's son. Either that or he is gay.

[Bondpurist]

I am neither of those things RevolveR. I just realise what a fantastic, fantastic Bond Dalton was, and how close he was to Fleming's Bond.
As for 'making very little contribution to the series' - because of the legal trouble he didn't have much chance to be bond for a 3rd time, as he had already been Bond for years and was fed up with doing so but not getting the chance to make any more Bond films.
As for Dalton being intense - well yes he was, and he had to be in LTK - the plot required it - I think I would be a bit intense if my best friend's leg and arm got bitten off and his wife killed, and he did this superbly- the scene where he finds their bodies is moving and Dalton's performance is really quite shakespearian, and absolutely splendid all the way through. Just remember his delivery of 'Watch the birdie you bastard'- you can really believe how much he hates Sanchez and how bloody angry he was.

[General Koskov]

Well, just for the record, I've no problem if people don't like Licence to Kill, but I cannot understand how they can call it unBondish. I hate The Man with the Golden Gun, yet I still find it, and every other Bond film, Bondish. So anyway my wish is for Licence to Kill to be able to be discussed as a matter of 'good Bond film' vs 'bad Bond film', rather than 'best Bond' vs 'horrible '80s action film'.

Just a thought.

[Bondpurist]

I agree 100% General.

[Carver]

I would call LTK unBondish, but then again, its definatly not the best Bond film. Its ok, but they had all those unecessary swear words and stuff, that made it very unBondish, they could have just stuck to the Bondish, bastard.

[Bondpurist]

LTK was very Bondian, more Bondian than most if it's the books you're interested in.

[Predator_007]

Originally posted by Bondpurist
As for Dalton being intense - well yes he was, and he had to be in LTK - the plot required it - I think I would be a bit intense if my best friend's leg and arm got bitten off and his wife killed, and he did this superbly- the scene where he finds their bodies is moving and Dalton's performance is really quite shakespearian, and absolutely splendid all the way through. Just remember his delivery of 'Watch the birdie you bastard'- you can really believe how much he hates Sanchez and how bloody angry he was.

Yes, granted, Bond had to have a certain ruthless streak in LTK, it just IMO wasn't very consistent with any other protrayal of Bond in the films (not even his previous outing). The overall feel of LTK is fairly Bondian, but Dalton does not do the storyline justice - the eyes bulging, temple vein popping look is not thte cool detached super spy of the previous films (or for that matter the books). Bond is generally fairly controlled whoever is killed (cf the killing of Tracy in OHMSS).

I think you hit the nail on the head however in describing his performance as Shakespearian. As a member of the RSC, Dalton was far too theatrical in his acting methodology to play Bond, playing it far too seriously most of the time. Whenever (obviously John Glen) called for him to lighten up a particular scene, Dalton couldn't really handle it properly (I would cite the final scenes from both his films and his poor delivery of one-liners).

In fact his poor delivery of one-liners is something not really touched on. Yes, he can do the sneering cruel put-downs, but the comedic efforts (that so characterise both Connery's and Moore's films) are strained at best and doenright embarrassing at others.

Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great actor, but just hasn't performed as well as he could in most of his films. He made an OK Bond, but OK just isn't good enough - and I am sure he would have improved given a couple more films, but given the various behind-the-scenes problems, I think he made the right decision to get out ...

[Bondpurist]

I think Dalton's acting style did the storyline perfect justice. Perhaps he was a bit theatrical, but I think that LTK had a lot in common with a shakespeare play in the 20th century - revenge, strong emotion, anger -and I think Bond needed his acting to carry such a heavy and unusually serious Bond film. His delivery of one liners was OK most of the time, but he didn't actually have too many of them so it didn't matter that much. Normally Boond might be cool and calm etc., but LTK isn't really a film for Bond to be that 'cool' and Fleming's Bond wsn't really like that much at all - he was often quite fret up, rarely relaxed and had even fewer one liners. Dalton's performance wasn't like that all the way through anyway - there were some lighter scenes with Pam and his bluffing with Sanchez, although not particularly light, threw quite a different light on the film - the 'problem eliminator' bit adds variety to Dalton's performance. I like Bond serious like Dalton did it anyway - it makes the whole thing much more dangerous and exciting.

[Predator_007]

Originally posted by Bondpurist
Fleming's Bond wsn't really like that much at all - he was often quite fret up, rarely relaxed and had even fewer one liners. Dalton's performance wasn't like that all the way through anyway - there were some lighter scenes with Pam and his bluffing with Sanchez, although not particularly light, threw quite a different light on the film - the 'problem eliminator' bit adds variety to Dalton's performance. I like Bond serious like Dalton did it anyway - it makes the whole thing much more dangerous and exciting.

I think you are right up to a point. Sure, the original literary Bond wasn't as smooth as (any of) the film incarnations, BUT he wasn't the ball of fury that Dalton was in LTK. He was often unsure of himself in the novels, often getting injured/wounded, and very rarely wore a tux - however, the later novels all played up the more confident side of Bond (none more so, fo course, than in the 3rd person TSWLM novella).

I think the lack of one-liners actually detracts from the enjoyment of LTK as a Bond film because of its inconsistencies with the other films - those one-liners are one of the hallmarks of the series (and like it or not, LTK is part of that series). I'm not necessarily advocating Moore-era eyebrow-raising jokes (although they too have a place in the Bond series), just something more than a few substandard 'quips' (I like the 'problem-eliminator' gag, but I personally thought it could have been delivered better - compare with Connery delivering "I think he got the point").

I don't quite understand however what you mean about liking Bond being serious. Apart from most of Moore's Bond films (which again I like because they don't pretend to be anything they are not), Bond is thoroughly serious - a few comic asides do not make Bond films into comedies, they are still action thrillers.

[ChandlerBing]

Moore even had the serious For Your Eyes Only, which was really drawn from many Fleming sources, and was a really good movie. It's too bad you feel you have to urinate over everything non-Dalton, Bondpurist, but if you feel you have to go like that, just shut the door behind you and we'll leave you alone.

[Predator_007]

Originally posted by ChandlerBing
It's too bad you feel you have to urinate over everything non-Dalton, Bondpurist, but if you feel you have to go like that, just shut the door behind you and we'll leave you alone.

No. I like a good discussion.

There are certain films in the series that always have more argument surrounding them, LTK is one, TMWTGG is another. I think it's great that we disagree ... I'd hate every post to be "Agree 100% with you there mate!". Dull.

I like the reasons BP gives (I just disagree with some of them), so am quite happy to continue until one or all of us gets bored ... I posted about this topic on 007forums until its recent demise, and was persuaded by my fellow posters to watch LTK again after several years ... it was better than I remembered it (just). The moral? Let your fellow posters win you over (if you think their reasons are sound).

[ChandlerBing]

I have a confession to make, that will totally blow Bondpurist away and knock him out of his knickers. I paid to see License To Kill back in the summer of 1989...twice. I bought the soundtrack, and I bought the poster for it. The truth is, the movie and Dalton doesn't hold up well for me over the years. Since I've been exposed to Pierce Brosnan, I know there is someone who can do it better, and I like him. So sue me, Bondpurist, I'm ready for the inevitable reprisal!

[1q2w3e4r]

I've decided to throw my two cents on.

I can't exactly understand how you can critise BP for liking TD and LTK (which i think is a great film in the canon, certinally not the best but definantly underrated... That may come from me and my mates sitting around watching and and saying "Sanchez" rather exageratedly)

Brosnan's first two outings don't hold up well for me. TND was hailed as great when it was released, looking back, its a shame of a film, poorly constructed, and its obvious the rumours surrounding rewrites and arguements with the director are true.

Roger's FYEO might have been a good film, but I just think he was a little old for the role there. I can't see him playing it, i think it would have been a great film for dalton or even Lazenby.

The fact that FYEO was "drawn" from many Fleming sources really doesn't mean all that much. After shamelessly using Fleming's Moonraker title for something which was totally un-Fleming (it has as much in common with the book as the spy who love me) they really didn't have anywhere else to go.

FYEO is really the only time we see Bond's "past" (excluding pretitles of OHMSS) this is represented by Bond's visit to Tracy's grave (which should have been i think in France).

and MGW admits that this was a blatent attempt by the producers to show the audience its still the same guy from DR NO. At least in Dalton's defence, in TLD they didn't need to do that. From the teaser you know this guy isn't calling a time out and subbing in the stunt guy. And he looks dangerous enough to be able to pull out a gun and convincingly shoot you with it, something Connery and Lazenby also had.

However, with Moore and Brosnan, its when they draw a gun they're intimidating, Connery, Lazenby and Dalton belong to the group of Bonds who look like they'll scare the hell out of you BEFORE they draw their gun.

[ChandlerBing]

Dalton's watery eyed stare doesn't make me scared. It makes me want to call a doctor and see if he's alright. Brosnan's cool look was really nice. You never knew what was going to happen. I like his scenes in TWINE in the bank before he kills those guys. Boom! When he uses the knife to pin the tie on the bar later on is also pretty nice.

[1q2w3e4r]

Seriously, have you had your eyes checked? TLD, the ferries wheel, after the BSS agent's been killed and Bond gets the balloon and in LTK in the warehouse, when he says. "Thank you for your time." after seeing Lieters flower, oh and "I help people with problems."
"Problem solver?"
Smiles... "More of a problem eliminator." Dalton looks like a cold bastard there. Something you'd see of Flemings Bond in the whore house in TMWTGG or in TSWLM when talking to Horror and Sluggsy.
I agree Bros was cool in TWINE easily his best.... But as i said and you agreed, he's scary using a gun or weapon, the others don't need one.

[ChandlerBing]

I have to comment on the whole problem solver/eliminator thing. I laugh during this scene because they all have the most stupid, exaggerated laughs I've heard...until Dr. Evil did his prolonged laugh in Austin Powers. And, yes, my eyes and hearing are great, how's yours?

Who poises more of a threat: Timothy Dalton, Mini-Me, or Fred Savage?

[1q2w3e4r]

Eyes are fine, hearings well. Yeah its okay... Why who said something??

Yeah how funny is that laugh bit. But Dalton still looks like he'd rip em one, more than Bros ever has in the role.

I guess your questions kinda like asking does Remington Steele pose more of a threat than Roger's 007. Depends on who you ask.

[ChandlerBing]

Well, I'm never going to convince you I'm right anymore than you're going to convert me to Daltonism. Agreed?

[1q2w3e4r]

Im not trying to convice you. Im simply saying that Dalton was quite capable of portraying the character as a mean bastard, and was exceptionally convincing portraying Fleming's Bond.

Its a no brainer that SC, GL and TD top my lists because I regard any successful Bond on how well they can portray what Ian Fleming wrote on the 60 000 odd thousand pages that became a novel every 12 months. I enjoy Roger's films, LALD I don't mind, but the sherriff irrates me, and TSWLM is easily his best. TWINE's PB's and DAD looks like topping it.

But I don't think their anywhere near on par with the others, though more because PB hasn't had the right vechile.

[flares]

I love LTK.

The reason I love it is for it's good points.

For it's bad points I forgive it.

This is why I love all the Bond films........except TWINE

I will mention a really bad point in LTK. It's when Sanchez is shooting at Bond on the truck with his Uzi. By amazing coincidence, the ricocheting bullets play out the bond theme. Man that was corn-ball stuff.

Gotta love it though chaps.

[ChandlerBing]

I liked TWINE. Much more than LTK.

[flares]

Please note the following is only my opinion

TWINE?

Just look at Director Michael Apted. What does he know about bond. Look at his filmography! Why oh why did they choose him?

He totally missed the point about what makes a bond film stand out from the crowd. He tried to just use the formulae - car, girls, bad guy, skiing, bomb. But you cannot expect it to win on this alone. The cinematography was atrocious. I don't want to feel sorry for the bad guy in a bond film!. The film had a cheap feel to it. I came out of the cinema feeling so let down (ha ha - I wanted my money and my time back). Maybe I am getting old, as when I came out of the cinema after TLD when I was 15, I was ecstatic.

I am hopeful that Lee Tamahori will make a good job of DAD. (The small number of films he has made ("Along came a spider", "Once were warriors")surpass any of Apted's ("Nell"????))

Anyway back to LTK - gotta love Carely Lowell. Any girl who wears her gun that way is great in my books

[Bondpurist]

Looks like I've missed quite a bit!!
I'm not saying that Moore was totally comedic and nothing else but he just didn't look like a killer. He didn't look like a murderer which is what James Bond is. Dalton did.
The main reason I like Dalton is because he's dark, violent, dangerous and serious.
I could give you many examples of this. Here are a few.
1) "Stuff my orders! I only kill professionals. That girl didn't know one end of a gun from the other. Tell him what you want. If he fires me I'll thank him for it. Whoever she was I must have scared the living daylights out of her."
2) The look on Dalton's face when he finds the balloon with Smiert Spionam on it. Pure venom.
3) "Did you hear?
"From Georgi? Yes, I got the message"
He looks quite murderous when he says 'I got the message'
4) The whole Pushkin bedroom scene - he smashes Pushkin with the butt of his gun, strips off Rubavitch, lays out the guard, etc., etc.
5) During the scene with Kara when he is drugged he is rough and pretty angry just before he collapses.
6) When he finds the Leiters' bodies. The look on his face says everything.
7) When he sees Leiter's rose.
8) "Let's go shark hunting"
9) The whole M scene in LTK.
10) "The complements of Sharkey"
11) "He's had enough"
12) "Watch the birdie you bastard" - this is delivered nigh on perfectly, seething with anger.
13) "More of a problem eliminator"
14) "Don't you want to know why?"
Only Connery and Dalton have had it - the look and feel of a killer. The dangerous edge. The edge that Fleming's Bond had, the edge that made his creation great.
If you want to have a light hearted family film then fine, but DON'T call it a Bond film. If you're making a Bond film then it should be a proper Bond film - not one of the cinematic tradition but of the LITERARY traditon and thus Bond films should be as close to Fleming's books as possible - this is acieved principally through the Bond actor, and Dalton rises to the challenge in every way, especially in LTK.