289 replies to this topic

[seawolfnyy]

Hence why I think the new film should be called, "What's New Pussycat?".. We could bring Tom Jones back for the title song! Lol!!

With that title, I'd rather have Connery do it.

[Shrublands]

 

I've just read a short interview on the MI6 website with Daniel Craig, in which he's asked about his interpretation of Bond, about his films, and what we can expect of Bond 24. The interview ends with this remark from Daniel Craig;
 
"The world's turned *******  weird and there's plenty we can start mining and taking out. If Blofeld turned up again, it wouldn't be a bad thing."
 
Neither confirming nor denying, although the text about Blofeld is emphasised in the interview. Wishful thinking by MI6 about the villain in Bond 24, or is there something in it, coming from the star of the show himself?

It's an interview from 2012, so I guess it depends how much Craig knew about BOND 24 at that point. I assume he was just talking hypothetically, but who knows!

 

 

He made similar comments concerning Q and Moneypenny whilst promoting QoS.

I don't think it's so much what he knew about Bond 24 at the time but indicative of the influence he may or may not have in the various brainstorming sessions they have during development. 

 

Having said that, he had read Logan's treatment at the time of this interview. 

[Dustin]

 

 

 

 

But, it's not really about where the characters come from, it's about where they ultimately go in the storyline.  I'm not advocating a straight remake of On Her Majesty's Secret Service.  Not at all.  I'm not advocating a faithful adaptation of the entire Blofeld Trilogy either.  The only point that I've been trying to make is that if you're going to bring back Blofeld, then it should be with a faithful adaptation of You Only Live Twice as a part of the endgame.  And if you're going to go that route, then that necessitates Blofeld and Bunt taking out Tracy.  It's just that one action that is necessary.  They can build Tracy and Bond's marriage into whatever other story they'd like to tell.

 

 

The thing is, that so-called arc of the SPECTRE-trilogy (what about TSWLM; have we forgotten about that?) bears a certain resemblance to the first book itself: Bond is at the top of his game, gets defeated by becoming emotionally involved and vows revenge, in Casino Royale's case on Smersh (now Quantum in the films). So picking this up now would be difficult to do, so soon after audiences have only just seen it on screen.

However, the latter arc bears several differences to the first that may make an approach possible. Firstly I'm going to stick my neck out and say Blofeld, in terms of importance for the sequence of events of that book, is superfluous for Thunderball. While he's easily the most fleshed out villain Fleming thought of, he and Bond never meet, nor do they learn of each other's existence.

Blofeld arguably started out life as an unseen mafia capo on the pages of one of Jack Wittingham's early screenplays for the TB project, but he was actually only introduced by the book, and here as an addendum to what was in effect Fleming's literary version of the film's script concerning itself with other characters. Claims to the effect persons other than Fleming were involved in creating this character have as far as I know never been supported by substantial evidence. For all we know Fleming already intended to make him a returning enemy, it just remains a mystery why he didn't do so in TSWLM.

 

But Blofeld's real import starts with OHMSS. Don't believe it? Just make a simple reality check, read Thunderball and leave out the Blofeld part, it works just as well without the intimate knowledge of Blofeld's character and backstory. And it's really the same with OHMSS, there needs not be any knowledge of Blofeld's last venture (if we forget about his organisation carrying out contract hits in Canada) for the book to still work. If we look at Thunderball alone that book's Blofeld could fall into the same category as FRWL's General Grubozaboyschikov, a player in the background, but nobody we would necessarily expect to see again.   

 

Blofeld only starts evolving into Bond's fateful antithesis at the moment he turns from a white hare to the actual man atop Piz Gloria. So if Eon want to use Blofeld for their new timeline they would in my opinion not necessarily have to start with a one-film-buildup, they could go right into medias res. This would be the third time Bond thwarts a Blofeld project, but it's the first that really counts, with Bond having been in the villains lair and escaping, foiling his operation in GB and returning himself to hunt Blofeld down. That's what made it personal for Blofeld. That's what sealed Tracy's fate. That could in effect be translated into a new story without having to do an outright remake of OHMSS.

 

One aspect often overlooked is that Vesper's death was due to her being blackmailed into treason and deciding she could not take it any longer after she fell in love with Bond. After learning this Bond immediately denies himself all feelings he may have had for Vesper (though he's visiting her grave once a year, giving away at least some kind of sentimental streak). The films pondered on this some more, with perhaps not exactly satisfying results.

 

Tracy on the other hand died because of a mix of bravado and carelessness on Bond's side. He was directly responsible because he took not even the most basic security precautions. After having just failed to finish an assignment successfully in the very region where he was marrying and intended to honeymoon. While Vesper is a victim of circumstance and her own bad conscience Tracy was just a victim of Bond not being at the top of his game. Vesper's death was nobody's but her own. Tracy's could well have been Bond's. There is a big difference and it's sad Bond has already been shown as vulnerable before so extensively. It's hard to think of a way to reinvent a plot that captures just this significance. No doubt they will try to anyway sooner or later.

 

Which brings us to You Only Live Twice and a faithful adaptation. Is this really feasible, in light of most of the book concerning itself with two middle-aged guys travelling, eating, drinking and effing as they ponder world events and watch a recruit die in a climbing drill? I think this will not really work beyond the simplest level of lifting elements like the Garden of Death and transplant them into an action script more in line with what people expect of Bond. The basic line is that Bond is arriving at the end of his usefulness and is sent out to make friends with another intelligence agency. While thinly veiled as promotion it's really the end of Bond's career and if it hadn't been for sheer dumb luck and coincidence he'd never have learned of Blofeld. In the end it's only the fact he agrees to do another man's killing work - here Tanaka's, but the element reappears from Risico - that he get's his own revenge of sorts. I suppose this is a plot that could be reused for Eon, now or in the future. But a closer, a faithful adaptation of YOLT? I'm not sure that's in the cards. What I could see them do - especially with Craig - would be a 1x-years-later epilogue where the older Bond meets the older Blofeld, now a respected member of society, and simply stabs him with a steak knife, the way he intended to take out LeChiffre. 

 

So, what did I want to say in the first place? Well, obviously that it's possible to use Blofeld but that it will not be according to the (Bond-) rulebook. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dustin, 02 December 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[mdileo007]

 

 

 

 

 

But, it's not really about where the characters come from, it's about where they ultimately go in the storyline.  I'm not advocating a straight remake of On Her Majesty's Secret Service.  Not at all.  I'm not advocating a faithful adaptation of the entire Blofeld Trilogy either.  The only point that I've been trying to make is that if you're going to bring back Blofeld, then it should be with a faithful adaptation of You Only Live Twice as a part of the endgame.  And if you're going to go that route, then that necessitates Blofeld and Bunt taking out Tracy.  It's just that one action that is necessary.  They can build Tracy and Bond's marriage into whatever other story they'd like to tell.

 

 

The thing is, that so-called arc of the SPECTRE-trilogy (what about TSWLM; have we forgotten about that?) bears a certain resemblance to the first book itself: Bond is at the top of his game, gets defeated by becoming emotionally involved and vows revenge, in Casino Royale's case on Smersh (now Quantum in the films). So picking this up now would be difficult to do, so soon after audiences have only just seen it on screen.

However, the latter arc bears several differences to the first that may make an approach possible. Firstly I'm going to stick my neck out and say Blofeld, in terms of importance for the sequence of events of that book, is superfluous for Thunderball. While he's easily the most fleshed out villain Fleming thought of, he and Bond never meet, nor do they learn of each other's existence.

Blofeld arguably started out life as an unseen mafia capo on the pages of one of Jack Wittingham's early screenplays for the TB project, but he was actually only introduced by the book, and here as an addendum to what was in effect Fleming's literary version of the film's script concerning itself with other characters. Claims to the effect persons other than Fleming were involved in creating this character have as far as I know never been supported by substantial evidence. For all we know Fleming already intended to make him a returning enemy, it just remains a mystery why he didn't do so in TSWLM.

 

But Blofeld's real import starts with OHMSS. Don't believe it? Just make a simple reality check, read Thunderball and leave out the Blofeld part, it works just as well without the intimate knowledge of Blofeld's character and backstory. And it's really the same with OHMSS, there needs not be any knowledge of Blofeld's last venture (if we forget about his organisation carrying out contract hits in Canada) for the book to still work. If we look at Thunderball alone that book's Blofeld could fall into the same category as FRWL's General Grubozaboyschikov, a player in the background, but nobody we would necessarily expect to see again.   

 

Blofeld only starts evolving into Bond's fateful antithesis at the moment he turns from a white hare to the actual man atop Piz Gloria. So if Eon want to use Blofeld for their new timeline they would in my opinion not necessarily have to start with a one-film-buildup, they could go right into medias res. This would be the third time Bond thwarts a Blofeld project, but it's the first that really counts, with Bond having been in the villains lair and escaping, foiling his operation in GB and returning himself to hunt Blofeld down. That's what made it personal for Blofeld. That's what sealed Tracy's fate. That could in effect be translated into a new story without having to do an outright remake of OHMSS.

 

One aspect often overlooked is that Vesper's death was due to her being blackmailed into treason and deciding she could not take it any longer after she fell in love with Bond. After learning this Bond immediately denies himself all feelings he may have had for Vesper (though he's visiting her grave once a year, giving away at least some kind of sentimental streak). The films pondered on this some more, with perhaps not exactly satisfying results.

 

Tracy on the other hand died because of a mix of bravado and carelessness on Bond's side. He was directly responsible because he took not even the most basic security precautions. After having just failed to finish an assignment successfully in the very region where he was marrying and intended to honeymoon. While Vesper is a victim of circumstance and her own bad conscience Tracy was just a victim of Bond not being at the top of his game. Vesper's death was nobody's but her own. Tracy's could well have been Bond's. There is a big difference and it's sad Bond has already been shown as vulnerable before so extensively. It's hard to think of a way to reinvent a plot that captures just this significance. No doubt they will try to anyway sooner or later.

 

Which brings us to You Only Live Twice and a faithful adaptation. Is this really feasible, in light of most of the book concerning itself with two middle-aged guys travelling, eating, drinking and effing as they ponder world events and watch a recruit die in a climbing drill? I think this will not really work beyond the simplest level of lifting elements like the Garden of Death and transplant them into an action script more in line with what people expect of Bond. The basic line is that Bond is arriving at the end of his usefulness and is sent out to make friends with another intelligence agency. While thinly veiled as promotion it's really the end of Bond's career and if it hadn't been for sheer dumb luck and coincidence he'd never have learned of Blofeld. In the end it's only the fact he agrees to do another man's killing work - here Tanaka's, but the element reappears from Risico - that he get's his own revenge of sorts. I suppose this is a plot that could be reused for Eon, now or in the future. But a closer, a faithful adaptation of YOLT? I'm not sure that's in the cards. What I could see them do - especially with Craig - would be a 1x-years-later epilogue where the older Bond meets the older Blofeld, now a respected member of society, and simply stabs him with a steak knife, the way he intended to take out LeChiffre. 

 

So, what did I want to say in the first place? Well, obviously that it's possible to use Blofeld but that it will not be according to the (Bond-) rulebook. 

 

I agree that the YOLT novel is mostly a travelogue with Bond and Tanaka discussing life for the first 2 thirds of the book.  Blofeld doesn't appear until the last third, so any faithful adaption of this book would have to be updated big time, ala' CR in 2006.

 

However, remember that Logan originally proposed a 2-film arc?  Assuming they are bringing back Blofeld, it could be that his pitch was to do an update of OHMSS, followed by an adaptation of the YOLT novel.

 

When Mendes balked at the two film arc, maybe they condensed the idea into one film as follows:

 

Do a re-imagining of OHMSS for the first 90 or 120 minutes of the film.  You can do away with Piz Gloria, germ warfare, the College of Arms, Etc.  Just wrap the basic Bond-Tracy-Blofeld story line into a new adventure.  Have Tracy die somewhere between the 90-120 minute mark.  Then fade to black.  Have a title card that reads -- "One year Later," or "6 months later."  Bond is a broken man.  But a photo comes across M's desk of a certain Dr. Shatterhand in Japan, who just sort of looks like Blofeld.  So he sends Bond to Japan to get him.  Then follow the basic outline of the last third of the YOLT novel for the final 45 minutes of the film.  You'd then have a 145-150 minute film (approx the same length of CR and SF) and you would have told the whole OHMSS/YOLT story in one film.  Maybe this is the way Logan/Mendes worked it out?

 

 

 

 

 

[Sir Godfrey]

Christoph Waltz on Bond 24 :

https://www.facebook...377913565705213

[RMc2]

Christoph Waltz on Bond 24 :

https://www.facebook...377913565705213

 

Great find, Sir Godfrey!

[SkyfallCraig]

He laughs at the end. He is clearly hiding a lot of things.

[Dustin]

No, Waltz is really that kind of guy, at least as far as I can tell from his public persona for the last 30 years or so. That's not to say he's not hiding anything, we just wouldn't be able to tell from his remark or his smile. And as he's a professional he doesn't spill the beans before the official announcement.  

[Guy Haines]

Or to borrow a favourite line of mine - I use it myself occasionally and I think I may be using it even more in the months to come, for reasons I won't bother members with - "You might very well say that. I couldn't possibly comment."

 

Fans of a certain Netflix show - and I'm one - will know what I mean. (The original UK version was just as good if not better!)

[Guy Haines]

Reading the online Radio Times this morning, there's a "what we know at the moment" piece about Bond 24, and a quote from Sam Mendes

 

"I started a number of stories that were incomplete. I cast a new M, I cast a new Moneypenny, I cast a new Q, I cast a new Tanner. There was a missing piece now."

 

Not of course strictly true about Tanner as Rory Kinnear appeared in QoS as well, but who, or what is the "missing piece" referred to? We might know in about four hours time.

[SecretAgentFan]

It´s an old quote, as far as I remember.

 

And I still don´t understand why Mendes insists on having done something he hasn´t.

[Royal Dalton]

Craig pretty much confirmed that Waltz is playing Blofeld on BBC News just now.

[JCRendle]

Craig pretty much confirmed that Waltz is playing Blofeld on BBC News just now.

 

What did he say? I turned off BBC news so I could concentrate on the forums, Live Stream etc...

[x007AceOfSpades]

So much for Oberhauser. Alias maybe.

[Harmsway]

Craig pretty much confirmed that Waltz is playing Blofeld on BBC News just now.

No surprise there.

[Dustin]

At a guess I'd say Waltz is Blofeld. And he will only be with Bond for one or two films, not three.

[SecretAgentFan]

Craig pretty much confirmed that Waltz is playing Blofeld on BBC News just now.

 

What did he say?

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

At a guess I'd say Waltz is Blofeld. And he will only be with Bond for one or two films, not three.

Since there's been quite a many "this time it's personal"-films in the recent history of the franchise, I guess they might be "reimagining" the "Blofeld Trilogy" without OHMSS. From Thunderball straight to the Garden of Death without larger personal agenda on Bond's behalf.

Edited by AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän, 04 December 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[thecasinoroyale]

I can't call it - it's obvious he will be Blofeld, or is it?

 

Maybe it's TOO obvious and Mendes is going to keep the real identity secret for longer?

 

Either way, Waltz is going to bring sinister back I feel.

[Royal Dalton]

 

Craig pretty much confirmed that Waltz is playing Blofeld on BBC News just now.

 

What did he say? I turned off BBC news so I could concentrate on the forums, Live Stream etc...

 

 

Well, he didn't confirm it outright. Lizo said the speculation is that Waltz is playing Blofeld, and Craig replied: "The speculation always is true, isn't it. Look, you'll have to wait and see."

 

Which doesn't sound like much on paper. But it was more about the way that he said it.

 

Craig also said this film has: "A better script than last time."

[SamNeillIsNotBond]

I think there are a few things to consider here.

First, it's rather a waste of Waltz's ability and star power if he isn't Blofeld, or at least a Largo-style #2. Moreover, it's hard to imagine him deferring to a Blofeld played by Scott. Not impossible, mind you, but not quite as plausible IMO. More likely, Scott is #2 and Waltz #1.

Also, if Denbigh is a Home Office man and also Blofeld, that sort of infiltration is a bit out of character for Blofeld as we've seen him in the past. Even when he has posed as someone else in the past (Bleuchamp, Willard Whyte), it's been someone very isolated and removed from the close inspection of MI6 and the rest of the world's intelligence services. It's certainly possible that Mendes and Logan have re-envisioned the character as someone who leads from the field, as it were, but this would make the reveal seem even more of a straight copy of the Moriarty reveal on Sherlock.

It's perhaps more likely that one of the ladies will turn out to be a female Blofeld (either a complete revision of the character, or his daughter), but I'm not sure Mendes will want to repeat the big twist from TWINE or borrow one from John Gardner's For Special Services. I think the latter is the far more likely of the two, though making either Lucia Sciarra or Madeline Swann (my guess, if this is the case) his daughter doesn't preclude Waltz from being Ernst Stavro Blofeld. To this last point, though, let's not forget that CR also climaxed with the reveal that the Bond girl - a British government operative - was secretly working with the villains.  Again, are they really willing to go that route again so soon?

It's unthinkable to imagine doing a SPECTRE-based film without Blofeld in it in some capacity, though he could be relegated to the shadows throughout as in the early Connery pictures & prepped to take center stage in Bond 25. In this scenario, the possibility that Denbigh is actually the real head of SPECTRE seems slightly more plausible. But I have my doubts as to whether Mendes (who may not even be back for the next film) would want to spend a whole film setting that up, and whether EON would want the villain of the next movie revealed before this one ends. After all, casting announcements are a huge part of the hype for an upcoming Bond picture, and it wouldn't be much of a publicity coup to say, "Oh yeah, we're bringing back this guy from the last picture to play the baddie again." Seems unlikely Broccoli and Wilson would want to follow the big hoopla surrounding the casting of Javier Bardem and Waltz, respectively, with a comparative non-event.

My guess is that Waltz's Oberhauser is Blofeld, he had something to do with the death of Bond's parents, and if one of the others is a double agent working for SPECTRE, it's Leydoux's Swann as Ernst's little girl.

[SecretAgentFan]

 

 

Craig pretty much confirmed that Waltz is playing Blofeld on BBC News just now.

 

What did he say? I turned off BBC news so I could concentrate on the forums, Live Stream etc...

 

 

Well, he didn't confirm it outright. Lizo said the speculation is that Waltz is playing Blofeld, and Craig replied: "The speculation always is true, isn't it. Look, you'll have to wait and see."

 

Which doesn't sound like much on paper. But it was more about the way that he said it.

 

Craig also said this film has: "A better script than last time."

 

 

"A better script than last time."

 

Ouch.  Didn´t he say last time what a terrific script it was?

 

PR hype...

[JCRendle]

The fact that he said that the previous script was terrific, the fact that he says that this script is even better is only a good thing - Doesn't necessarily mean that he thought the previous script was poor...

[Guy Haines]

I think if Oberhauser turns out to be Blofeld there is both a link to SF and a pathway to a possible filming of the story from You Only Live Twice, minus the title, thusly:

 

1. Oberhauser is really Blofeld, or assumed the real man's identity;

 

2. The deaths of Andrew and Monique Bond were not accidental, as assumed;

 

3. Oberhauser/Blofeld had something to do with their deaths or murdered them himself, as one contributor above has already mentioned.

 

It bypasses the issue of Bond marrying and losing his wife - involving a remake of OHMSS - whilst providing a link to Mendes' previous Bond film and a plausible reason for Bond to want Blofeld dead - which, it wouldn't surprise me at all, carries the story on into Bond 25.

 

Of course it may all seem a little bit like Batman and the Joker!

[Royal Dalton]

Sounds good to me, Guy.

[Harmsway]

I think if Oberhauser turns out to be Blofeld there is both a link to SF and a pathway to a possible filming of the story from You Only Live Twice, minus the title, thusly:

1. Oberhauser is really Blofeld, or assumed the real man's identity;

2. The deaths of Andrew and Monique Bond were not accidental, as assumed;

3. Oberhauser/Blofeld had something to do with their deaths or murdered them himself, as one contributor above has already mentioned.

It bypasses the issue of Bond marrying and losing his wife - involving a remake of OHMSS - whilst providing a link to Mendes' previous Bond film and a plausible reason for Bond to want Blofeld dead - which, it wouldn't surprise me at all, carries the story on into Bond 25.

Of course it may all seem a little bit like Batman and the Joker!

Waltz is a bit young to have been responsible for the death of Bond's parents, no?

Mendes showed a certain sensitivity regarding the death of Bond's parents in Skyfall. I hope he doesn't break with that here just to give Bond's conflict with Blofeld a personal dimension.

[seawolfnyy]

 

Craig pretty much confirmed that Waltz is playing Blofeld on BBC News just now.

No surprise there.

 

Does anyway truly believe that Waltz is NOT playing Blofeld?

[univex]

 

 

Craig pretty much confirmed that Waltz is playing Blofeld on BBC News just now.

No surprise there.

 

Does anyway truly believe that Waltz is NOT playing Blofeld?

 

What did he say, exactly?

[Vauxhall]

I think if Oberhauser turns out to be Blofeld there is both a link to SF and a pathway to a possible filming of the story from You Only Live Twice, minus the title, thusly:
1. Oberhauser is really Blofeld, or assumed the real man's identity;
2. The deaths of Andrew and Monique Bond were not accidental, as assumed;
3. Oberhauser/Blofeld had something to do with their deaths or murdered them himself, as one contributor above has already mentioned.
It bypasses the issue of Bond marrying and losing his wife - involving a remake of OHMSS - whilst providing a link to Mendes' previous Bond film and a plausible reason for Bond to want Blofeld dead - which, it wouldn't surprise me at all, carries the story on into Bond 25.
Of course it may all seem a little bit like Batman and the Joker!

Waltz is a bit young to have been responsible for the death of Bond's parents, no?
Mendes showed a certain sensitivity regarding the death of Bond's parents in Skyfall. I hope he doesn't break with that here just to give Bond's conflict with Blofeld a personal dimension.

Agreed. I'm hoping that the parents won't feature, although a reference to Hannes Oberhauser is hopefully a given.

[dtuba]

I do hope that the story has nothing to do with Andrew and Monique Bond. Bond's past has been dealt with in SF. It's time to move on. Plus any "secret from the past" plot point just sounds like a lazy rehash of SF as well. Well maybe if it is a Nazi secret buried from WWII. 

Of course now that sounds a lot like the Red Skull/HYDRA. Please, let's not start lifting themes from Captain America for gosh sakes!