88 replies to this topic

[Mr_Wint]

You can't have an over-the-top film like DAD's second half wants to be with the comparative grittiness of the first half grounding it, and you can't have a true, gritty revenge thriller that the first half somewhat promises with the over-the-top nature that the second half contains.

This is not really a problem with DAD. It is just you who fails to categorize the movie and instead takes the easy way out. Hypothetically: Why can’t we have a Bondfilm which starts out like FRWL and ends like YOLT/MR? Because you have never seen it before?

The idea to begin small and personal, and then continuously add OTT elements until it becomes a Spy-Fi is the best thing about DAD because it has never been done before. Unfortunately, in this case, the story wasn't solid enough to carry the film through that journey. And you could say that they messed up the OTT elements. I liked the Ice palace and the Invisible car, but it is obvious that they didn’t know what to do with them. A complete, unrestrained, Lewis Gilbert ending would’ve been the best thing to wrap it up.

[thecasinoroyale]

I just can't stomach the final airplane battle. Not because of the action inside the craft itself, that's fine, but it's the CGI plane, Icarus blast and resulting helecopter escape that just goes way over the top for my like - too flashy and generic action movie and I lose the Bond-vibe totally.

Perhaps it's appropriate that was the final film before the 're-launch' of 007 as that ending totally just ran out of steam and lost the Bond elements we actually love. As for Bond and Moneypenny on the desk leading the VR - well the less said about that nonsense the better, the fact we have to see Bond act like the Milk Tray Man on a desk is cringe enough, but then for Miss.Monepenny to lose any respect Samantha Bond started to have with her with the VR smut. *yawn*.


Still, rant over and not the best ending at all and would rather have it focus more around the Ice Palace rather than the plane.

[Messervy]

I just can't stomach the final airplane battle. Not because of the action inside the craft itself, that's fine, but it's the CGI plane, Icarus blast and resulting helecopter escape that just goes way over the top for my like - too flashy and generic action movie and I lose the Bond-vibe totally. Perhaps it's appropriate that was the final film before the 're-launch' of 007 as that ending totally just ran out of steam and lost the Bond elements we actually love. As for Bond and Moneypenny on the desk leading the VR - well the less said about that nonsense the better, the fact we have to see Bond act like the Milk Tray Man on a desk is cringe enough, but then for Miss.Monepenny to lose any respect Samantha Bond started to have with her with the VR smut. *yawn*. Still, rant over and not the best ending at all and would rather have it focus more around the Ice Palace rather than the plane.

Those 2 things are what I always thought about DAD:

- the Moneypenny VR scene was ludicrous. Shocking; positively shocking! I was watching the movie in the theatre with my wife (who's less a fan than I am, but whom I have made somehow addicted to the Bond world), and she almost yelled at that nonesense part.

- The airplane scene is un-needed. I think DAD should have ended in the Ice Palace (a very Bondian setting), where all the action takes place and when all is revealed. The rest just makes the film too long and almost boring. And it doesn't add anything af any real value to the plot.

[AMC Hornet]

Aren't you the same lot who said DAD 'falls apart' once Bond reaches Iceland? Now yer saying there should have been more Ice Palace and less Antonov.

Interesting.

And I can hear it now: "Instead of ending with something original, they opted instead to have another by-the-numbers battle between two armies of boiler-suited extras, more than just 'reminiscent' of YOLT/TSWLM. they should have just concentrated on Bond vs Graves (and maybe even Jinx vs Frost) - sorta like in NSNA, only with the installation crashing down around their ears."

It's true - you can't please everyone.

[Miles Miservy]

DIE ANOTHER DAY makes fun of the Brosnan era the way OCTOPUSSY makes fun of the Moore era; the way DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER makes fun of the Connery era. I wonder what film of Daniel Craig's will make fun of HIS era?

[thecasinoroyale]

I actually don't mind the ice palace, spare Jinx's moments. The location is very classic Bond, and I love the use of the area for the Aston and Jaguar battle...so yeah, a bit more Ice please!

[Messervy]

I actually don't mind the ice palace, spare Jinx's moments. The location is very classic Bond, and I love the use of the area for the Aston and Jaguar battle...so yeah, a bit more Ice please!

Yep. That part of the movie has everything: an inconic setting, the characters all being reunited in one place, the plot being revealed, the ensuing action...
It would have made more sense to end it here, instead of dragging along for almost another 30 minuites of eventually useless scenes.

[seawolfnyy]

I think the story begins to fall apart at the ice palace. I think the setting was great just misused and the film needed neither the plane nor the trip to Korea. Its tough to say how it should have ended. Personally, I think the script needed more polish and a different director. Die Another Day feels more like a prequel to XXX than a Bond film, technically it could be as XXX and XXX 2 were both done by Tamahori after DAD).

[AMC Hornet]

DIE ANOTHER DAY makes fun of the Brosnan era the way OCTOPUSSY makes fun of the Moore era; the way DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER makes fun of the Connery era. I wonder what film of Daniel Craig's will make fun of HIS era?

I like your take, MM - thanks for that, although I'd say 'makes light' or 'has fun' rather than makes fun. And I agree with TCR - I think in time more people will appreciate the supercar battle as a classic moment.

[freemo]

How it should have ended:

Cut to Bond still in the North Korean prision. He was never released. Everything after the title sequence was one long hallucination (hence all the references to previous adventures. It's his life flashing before his eyes, in a bizzare, non-sensical, nightmare-like jumble). Bond keels over and dies.

Die Another Day is the metaphoric death of CubbyBond. MGW and BB needed to kill CubbyBond before they could create their own.

Hence why Bond's return to MI6 headquarters at the end of the film was only a VR sequence. He never really returned. JAMES BOND WONT RETURN. At least, not as you knew him.

[Mr_Wint]

Die Another Day is the metaphoric death of CubbyBond. MGW and BB needed to kill CubbyBond before they could create their own.

LTK was the definitive death of CubbyBond, so what possible harm can a metaphoric death do 13 years later.

[DR76]

I've read a lot of posts and threads wherein it is discussed how the narrative of Die Another Day went wrong/ derailed/ fell apart etc in the second half.

Personally, I don't see the problem. I've always assumed that DAD went in the direction it did because that was the direction in which it was going. But, being as much of a know-nothing amateur as Purvis & Wade apparently are, I can't conceive of how the film should have/was supposed to go.

So, please enlighten me - where did the film go wrong, and how should it have gone in order to conclude in a manner that would have been satisfactory to all?

I hope to see plenty of contributions, as the more posters who respond, the more my point will eventually be made.

Honestly, I found nothing wrong with the narrative for DAD. I did have a problem with that last scene featuring Moneypenny and her visual "fantasy", the Iceland setting, Miranda Frost's character, and that damn invisible car. As for DAD going off the rails . . . well, if many felt that way, it's their problem, not mine. Thank goodness it wasn't a generic, paint-by-the-numbers borefest like TND or a narrative disaster like GF, with its numerous plot holes.

[AMC Hornet]

Thanks, DR76 - I'll take back one of the nasty things I've been saying about you behind your back.

(I won't reveal which one, though - I may want to use it again some time.)

If it satisfies some people to do a fantasy rewrite of a movie, restructuring it in such a way that it satisfies their own expectations, that's fine - but there's still no guarantee that their re-envisioning will satisfy anyone else (just ask Geoge Lucas).

There are more things I would change about Moonraker before I would bother with DAD - I don't imagine that I'm any more qualified to fix DAD (or MR) than anyone else is.

[jamie00007]

I literally find the second half, or everything after Bond goes to iceland, borderline unwatchable. The horrific dialog ("Im Mr Kil" - was the utter lameness of that name and resulting one liner intended to be intentionally bad to make fun of the series?), the tsunami surfing has to be one of the most cringe inducing scenes in the series, the entire climax is just like watching someone play a Playstation game and is just as exciting and finishing it all off is the two embarrassingly awful love scenes, first the Moneypenny virtual sex scene which is a short step away from having Moneypenny masturbating on her desk, the second the Bond and Jinx and all that "leave it in, its a perfect fit" stuff. Classy film.

The only thing salvagable from the second half of the film is probably the car chase. Not that the first half of the film was exactly great, it still had Bond mentally stopping and starting his heart at will and probably the worst location substitution in Bond history with Hampshire doubling for Korea but it was a hell of a lot better than the first half.

[Major Tallon]

I literally find the second half, or everything after Bond goes to iceland, borderline unwatchable. The horrific dialog ("Im Mr Kil" - was the utter lameness of that name and resulting one liner intended to be intentionally bad to make fun of the series?), the tsunami surfing has to be one of the most cringe inducing scenes in the series, the entire climax is just like watching someone play a Playstation game and is just as exciting and finishing it all off is the two embarrassingly awful love scenes, first the Moneypenny virtual sex scene which is a short step away from having Moneypenny masturbating on her desk, the second the Bond and Jinx and all that "leave it in, its a perfect fit" stuff. Classy film.

The only thing salvagable from the second half of the film is probably the car chase. Not that the first half of the film was exactly great, it still had Bond mentally stopping and starting his heart at will and probably the worst location substitution in Bond history with Hampshire doubling for Korea but it was a hell of a lot better than the first half.

I pretty much agree with this assessment. The "heart stopping" sequence did it for me. There were a few enjoyable bits afterward, but the movie never recovered.

[J.B.]

Wow. will this be a different response than what I've read. I liked DAD. EVERY Bond film has it's cheesiness and ridiculous parts. I was watching AVTAK a couple of days ago while stuck home nursing a kidney stone (ouch!). Talk about a ridiculous movie for Roger Moore (who was too old at that point). But, overall, I suffered through those parts and enjoyed it. Yes, the CGI in the second half of DAD was way TOO much and ridiculous for me as well. But, I did enjoy the invisible car and the car fight was great! I wouldnt change the ending and I wish I could get the music they used at the end when Bond and Jinx are in that house playing with the diamonds. It wasn't on the soundtrack.

One thing to remember about this film, which for me colors how I view it. They were trying to put elements/themes of all the other Bond films into this film to commemorate it being the 20th. The more I watch this film the more I see how it may have forced their hand some in putting the plot together here and there. Also everytime I watch it, I try and find more ties to the past films too. I find more each time. One thing for sure though about the plot: it would have been 10 times better w/o Jinx. Cant believe they thought about a spinoff with her character at one point.

Lastly, the shame of this movie I think was that it was Brosnan's last film. When EON decided to fulfill their dreams of making the Bond films what they wanted with Cubby gone etc., you could see the fans and Brosnan himself wishing that he could do one more to end his tenure right. But that, as they say, is showbiz. And this gets off the point of this thread. Thanks for reading.

[DamnCoffee]

I wish I could get the music they used at the end when Bond and Jinx are in that house playing with the diamonds. It wasn't on the soundtrack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z13-0MOhxps

it was on the soundtrack, friend.

Edited by DamnCoffee, 06 September 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[J.B.]

That's it! You know how I missed it? On the film they use that song in the middle of it to the end. So, when I heard the beginning of this song on my soundtrack, I thought somehow they left off that great opening of the song in the movie as the film pans down from the sky before going into the house where they are. It's actually in the middle of the song. Thanks Damncoffee! Really appreciate you doing that.

Now, Here is another song to find for me. The one on TWINE where Bond and Elektra jump from the helicopter and ski together. Didn't find that one on my soundtrack either. Do you have it?!

[Iceskater101]

- The airplane scene is un-needed. I think DAD should have ended in the Ice Palace (a very Bondian setting), where all the action takes place and when all is revealed. The rest just makes the film too long and almost boring. And it doesn't add anything af any real value to the plot.

I agree with this. If there would be more fighting in the Ice Palace, it would have been way cooler. Just saying.

[Arbogast777]

It should have ended with Bond arriving at the ice palace.

Sad thing is it probably still would have been longer than Quantum of Solace.

[Double-0-Seven]

How should it have ended? Simple. It shouldn't have begun in the first place.

[AMC Hornet]

How should it have ended? Simple. It shouldn't have begun in the first place.

Thanks, that's very constructive.

[killkenny kid]

Well the second half of the movie was a complete disaster, but a real scene between us Bond and Moneypenny would have been a nice way to close the door on this era of Bond films.

[AMC Hornet]

Well the second half of the movie was a complete disaster, but a real scene between us Bond and Moneypenny would have been a nice way to close the door on this era of Bond films.

Of course, they didn't know at the time that Pierce's era was ending.

And what I've been asking for is not just the usual, inconclusive "the second half was a disaster," but an explanation of what made it a disaster.

Read the tin: how should the second half have gone?

[Hockey Mask]

The sad thing is..as much as I disliked DAD, TND was worse.

[Zographos]

My question is, are any of these alternate scenarios satisfactory to all (remember my original question)?

There's a very good point you're trying to make in this thread, AMC Hornet. Alas, you chose the wrong movie with which to make it.

The reason you're not getting any dissension over how DAD should have ended is because it's so honest-to-god-bad that virtually any suggestion improves it. I'll take any post above and any post below, if it matters a hoot. Nothin' to do with my expectations of what a Bond movie ought to be.

This should have gone in the CR forum. CR was a film 40 years in the making and virtually every fan who had read the book had their own ideas about how it should have been done. Even today you still see a lot of debate in these forums about how Campbell handled Bond/Vesper, the casting of Eva Green, etc. The fact that it's generally well-regarded doesn't change the point to be made about fans and expectations, and it would have been so easy to drum up some pretty pointed contrasts. But you wanted to simultaneously white knight a tasteless teen flick, tripped yourself up, and, eh, here we are.

[AMC Hornet]

This should have gone in the CR forum. CR was a film 40 years in the making and virtually every fan who had read the book had their own ideas about how it should have been done. Even today you still see a lot of debate in these forums about how Campbell handled Bond/Vesper, the casting of Eva Green, etc. The fact that it's generally well-regarded doesn't change the point to be made about fans and expectations, and it would have been so easy to drum up some pretty pointed contrasts. But you wanted to simultaneously white knight a tasteless teen flick, tripped yourself up, and, eh, here we are.

Again, here is my point!

Even Casino Royale - as highly-regarded as it is - didn't satisy everyone. I hear bitching about the casting of Eva Green, the front-loading of action scenes, how the film 'drags' after the torture scene, etc.

Most fans seem to regard only the Connery era (minus DAF) as inviolable - would I be lynched for suggesting that the 'NxNW' helicopter chase and the pursuit by the SPECTRE flotilla in FRWL seemed like superfluous filler? Sacrilege!

Hopefully in time people will stop chafing over DAD and at least rank it close to DAF and MR as a 'fun' Bond - as I already do.

[Zographos]

Hopefully in time people will stop chafing over DAD and at least rank it close to DAF and MR as a 'fun' Bond - as I already do.

Probably unlikely, but then who's to say.

Problem is that DAF is to DAD what Adam West's Batman is to Joel Schumacher's Batman. As you say, there's a certain futility in taking the West series to task; it is what it is - take it or leave it. But that same futility can't elevate inferior material.

Handy outline! http://plover.net/~b...itschtrash.html

[Peckinpah1976]

How it should have ended:

Cut to Bond still in the North Korean prision. He was never released. Everything after the title sequence was one long hallucination (hence all the references to previous adventures. It's his life flashing before his eyes, in a bizzare, non-sensical, nightmare-like jumble).

I'd go one further and have Dalton waking up on the interrogation table in Isthmus City - it turns out the Brosnan version of the nineties was just a bad dream.

Edited by Peckinpah1976, 29 September 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[Major Tallon]

I don't like DAD, but I've thought of trying to answer this in the spirit which AMC Hornet intended. My problem is that, starting at the end, I don't know how to back up far enough from the existing ending to make that part of the film worthwhile (and yes, I'd still have serious issues with other parts). I'll assume the basic thread of the story: Graves wants to eliminate a minefield so that his troops can cross, Jinx kills Miranda, Graves kills his father, and Bond kills Graves. I'd have to get rid of the plane. That would solve the problem of a super weapon that can't shoot down a single aircraft in less than ten minutes. That would also get rid of the CGI switchblades. I'd get rid of Graves' robo-cop suit, as I can't imagine that a meglomaniac would ever have felt that he'd need such a getup to begin with.

So, what to do? An impregnable complex, I guess, where Graves was controlling a hyper-powerful space weapon, planning to use it to blast through the minefield. Bond and Jinx infiltrate the complex, each taking out their respective villains and deactivating the space weapon in time to prevent its use before escaping. But if you take away the plane-based control center, you're left with a transparent copying of "Goldeneye." To avoid that, I'd have to go farther back in the story. I wouldn't just be changing the ending; I'd be rewriting the movie. It just illustrates one of DAD's basic flaws.