88 replies to this topic

[AMC Hornet]

I've read a lot of posts and threads wherein it is discussed how the narrative of Die Another Day went wrong/ derailed/ fell apart etc in the second half.

Personally, I don't see the problem. I've always assumed that DAD went in the direction it did because that was the direction in which it was going. But, being as much of a know-nothing amateur as Purvis & Wade apparently are, I can't conceive of how the film should have/was supposed to go.

So, please enlighten me - where did the film go wrong, and how should it have gone in order to conclude in a manner that would have been satisfactory to all?

I hope to see plenty of contributions, as the more posters who respond, the more my point will eventually be made.

[DamnCoffee]

Die Another Day has a lot of problems. I still to this day though, think the final scene of the film should've been Bond and Moneypenny. It's a beautiful scene and the virtual reality ruined it. It would've been the perfect way to honour the 40th Anniversary and end the 'classic Bond era'.

[Miles Miservy]

Die Another Day has a lot of problems. I still to this day though, think the final scene of the film should've been Bond and Moneypenny. It's a beautiful scene and the virtual reality ruined it. It would've been the perfect way to honour the 40th Anniversary and end the 'classic Bond era'.

Yes, but how funny would it have been, were it Bond, not Moneypenny, sporting the V/R glasses?

[AMC Hornet]

So that was the only problem - the VR seduction with Moneypenny?

I thought it was something more fundamental with the narrative; something to do with Iceland.

[tdalton]

I think that Die Another Day went off the rails when it didn't fully embrace the idea of a captured Bond and what the ramifications of that could potentially be moving forward in the plot. What I would have done with that would have been to fully embrace that idea, completely cutting off Bond from M and the rest of MI6. After Bond escapes MI6 custody in Hong Kong, I would have had it set up so that MI6 treats him as a true rogue agent. At first, M is probably reluctant to go after him, but once Falco says that Bond torched the Cuban clinic, I would have had M assign another Double-oh agent to eliminate Bond. Bond would continue the mission to expose Graves for the traitor that he is, but he'd have to do so against Her Majesty's government, who would be fully backing Graves, all while also having to deal with the fact that he has a former colleague of his trying to kill him.

[seawolfnyy]

I think that Die Another Day went off the rails when it didn't fully embrace the idea of a captured Bond and what the ramifications of that could potentially be moving forward in the plot. What I would have done with that would have been to fully embrace that idea, completely cutting off Bond from M and the rest of MI6. After Bond escapes MI6 custody in Hong Kong, I would have had it set up so that MI6 treats him as a true rogue agent. At first, M is probably reluctant to go after him, but once Falco says that Bond torched the Cuban clinic, I would have had M assign another Double-oh agent to eliminate Bond. Bond would continue the mission to expose Graves for the traitor that he is, but he'd have to do so against Her Majesty's government, who would be fully backing Graves, all while also having to deal with the fact that he has a former colleague of his trying to kill him.

I like that angle, but here's how I would do it instead. Leave most of the first half intact except get rid of Jinx. She is just awful and completely useless. Instead have a real Gala Brand and leave Miranda Frost as the mole. I would pick it up right after the fight at Blades, M sends the key and has Bond meet her. She says that he is under arrest for his actions in (escaping custody, enlisting help from China, torching the clinic in Cuba) he escapes, M sends agent Gala Brand after him. Scrap the invisible car and Q scene. Bond follows Graves to Iceland and there he meets Frost and Brand who is undercover. After the Icarus demonstration, Frost/Graves plant the seed that Brand is the one who betrayed Bond in North Korea and that she is a spy attempting to destroy Icarus. Bond succeeds in capturing Brand who hands her over to Graves who in turn leaves her to Zao. Bond realizes he's been played as Miranda takes his weapon at gun point. Graves' plan is still to use Icarus to create a path into South Korea and they leave Bond trapped with Brand in the melting Ice Palace. They escape using Brand's phone, which is used to blow a hole through the ice door. They grab two snowmobiles and escape after killing Zao and several of his men. They contact MI6 and Brand convinces M to allow Bond to help her get Frost and Graves. They sneak into a North Korean base (not that goddamn plane) and track down Graves/Frost. Bond and Brand are captured by Miranda when they approach the control room and are made to watch the carnage by Graves. Brand drops her ring (which is a powerful flash-bang) and creates a diversion allowing them to escape. Miranda follows Brand, but is killed in the fight and Bond kills Graves by shooting him after a short fight. Icarus is stopped and Bond/Brand escape back to England. Brand resists Bond's advances as she reveals she's engaged (just like in the novel) and the film ends with M offering Bond his job back.

[Zographos]

Was there really a narrative to derail? I always saw Die Another Day as a series of set-pieces that ends rather than concludes. More pørnographic than cinematic in structure (though that's true of Bond generally).

I can't see much point in trying redirect the film to some sort of logical conclusion because it's never apparent what significance Purvis & Wade see in capturing Bond and subjecting him to scorpions/Madonna. Betrayal, torture, and alienation aren't narratives, they're concepts.

[DamnCoffee]

So that was the only problem - the VR seduction with Moneypenny?

I thought it was something more fundamental with the narrative; something to do with Iceland.

The thread title does say, 'How should DAD have ended', not 'How would you make DAD better."

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot wrong with the film. I just couldn't be bothered to type it out. It's really funny how the 'virtual reality' scenes are probably the most realistic aspects of the film. Anyway, after we get to Iceland, the film starts to go dramatically down hill, not only do the sets look incredibly fake, the entire thing is just badly written. He's how I would've changed it...

• The film needed another script polish. Make the dialogue a lot less cheesey.
• Have some genuine tension and spy work.
• Loose Jinx completely. (A complete waste of screentime, which should've been filled to expand on the character of Miranda, so we actually care that she's the traitor).
• Miranda is the main Bond girl, and Bonds only sexual conquest in the film.
• Bond having more detective work at Los Organos.
• Make the Virtual Reality MI6 Attack an actual training excercise, to get Bond back in shape.
• No Invisible Vanquish. Have the other gadgets by all means.
• Lose the awful Ice Wave, and make the car chase on Ice the massive Bond theme moment. Bond is not going to save Jinx, or anyone. Graves' faithfull sidekick Zao is prepared to die for his boss (like OddJob) and captures Bond in the Ice Palace, Bond escapes in the Vanquish to try and get out of the blast radius (Since Icarus is set to go off over it) Cue the car chase.
• Zao's death could happen in the same way, but have Bond drive up the side of a cliff with the traction wheels, and Zao fly over the edge of it.
• Just... make the CGI better.
• Miranda is killed by Bond. Shot point blank, as an act of revenge.
• Graves' death was cool. I'd keep that in.
• Bond starting the Helicopter in mid air on his own (No Jinx, obviously)
• Bond and Moneypenny kiss in the final scene. Lovely way to end it, and honour the 40th Anniversary. Bond getting with the woman he never could get. Then the reboot would be a lot cooler (Not that it wasn't anyway). It would be lovely to think that Bond and Moneypenny finally got together at the end of the classic Bond era.

[plankattack]

Q show Bond the invisible Aston Martin, and then the whole film just disappears......

Seriously, I do think that DAD is a real bubble and squeak of a movie - a lot of old ideas thrown into a pan and heated up. It is what it is to that extent, so I'm not sure that there is much minor surgery that could have been done in order to get major results. I agree with many that the film really loses its way when it gets to Iceland, but I can't think of a new direction to have taken the story. Most of the action in the last half-hour is flat and while the bad CGI of the ice surfing scene is to many the nadir, the car chase is too long, and the aircraft finale lacks an edge. It's a lot of noise without a real sense of climax - it just happens to be the last action scene of the picture.

I agree with the betrayed/vengeance angle never being developed enough. Graves isn't really evil, just kind of a dick, so his defeat by Bond doesn't have any real emotional payoff. By rights, Bond should have killed Frost as she's the traitor but Graves dies because, well the script says he's the villain and Bond should kill him last. Graves and Bond have the least adversarial relationship of the series and it shows.

That being said, I don't think it would have made much of a difference. I've never liked MR because I feel its tongue is too far in its cheek - I've said it would be a terrific movie if it took itself more seriously. But DAD is the opposite, it takes itself too seriously and yet the film is so outlandish it's embarrassing to watch, and while I think MR is ridiculous it's never cringeworthy (aside from Jaws and Holly).

Can the second half of DAD be tweaked? The question to me, is is it worth tweaking?

[seawolfnyy]

damn coffee-
okay ur idea is better than mine. i just have the inkling that there is an absolute classic espionage tale buried somewhere in Die Another Day that was starting to emerge and then was drowned by that awful CGI wave. I do agree that it could have benefited from another rewrite. Strange it was so weak considering it ended by the same writers who gave us the superb Casino 4 years later.

[JimmyBond]

People who know me here will not be the least bit surprised, but I Die Another Day is just fine as is.

One thing I enjoy about the Brosnan era, is how the films turned Bond into something of a superhero. The Dalton films started down the "action film" path with Licence to Kill, so the next logical step was to turn Bond into something of a mythical hero. In DAD Bond triumphs through bold determination, you can see it in move Bond makes: from escaping the boat into Hong Kong harbor, surfing the tidal wave to safety, and even making a clean getaway in the Helicopter amidst the debris of the plane.

I used to feel Bond's actions in this film were over the top. Then I applied that theory of thinking (that Brosnan's Bond is something of a mythical hero) and the film plays much better.

[Jim]

The question assumes that DUD should have started.

Let's be constructive and suggest that an improvement could have been a satisfying resolution of the capture/captivity episode.

Would agree with the poster above that it's all a collection of individual moments and scrapings of ideas flung at one. Bit like projectile hot vomit.

[Odd Jobbies]

Without any use of slow-motion; whatsoever...

[Mr_Wint]

* Graves does not leave the Ice Palace. Instead he controls the satellite from the palace.
* The car chase between Bond and Zao continues far away from the Ice Palace.
* Bond kills Zao and returns home.
* Bond comes back with an army, launching a full assault with parachute rangers landing on top of the ice palace.
* While good army fights bad army, Bond saves Jinx and kills Graves.
* The Ice Palace explodes and the army returns home.
* Everyone is looking for Bond. But no one can find him - he is in the invisible car, doing Jinx and Frost...
JAMES BOND WILL RETURN

[AMC Hornet]

So we have five different versions so far of how DAD could have been different/improved.

My question is, are any of these alternate scenarios satisfactory to all (remember my original question)?

And, if DAD had delivered exactly what you were expecting, would you be satisfied with that, or would you be bleating about how it was totally predictable and didn't contain any surprises?

Thank you, JimmyBond, for having the chutzpa to be onside with me on this one. I too like DAD for what it is - a retrospective, OTT romp.

I don't expect SF to be as outlandish, but I do anticipate some stylistic elements that will be reminiscent of the classic films, and whether they are too many or too few, I for one don't intend to complain endlessly about them. My philosophy has always been, if I didn't like the last one, maybe I'll like the next one better. So I enter the cinema with no preconceived expectations, and don't fault any film for not measuring up to MY standards of perfection.

I thought Moonraker could have been improved with a few tweaks, but it's too late, and plenty of other people love it just the way it is, so who am I to impose my criticism upon something that cannot be changed?

See you on the boards in November, where I expect I'll be defending Skyfall's good points in the face of others calling it crap because it wasn't what they would have made of it.

[tdalton]

Since there is really no way to answer the question, I'll just say that no movie can be changed to the point that it will please everyone. With that said, though, Die Another Day has earned its status as one of the more unpopular Bond films because its storyline really does fall apart in the second half. It falls apart because it goes from a story that is focused on revenge and finding out who betrayed Bond to simply being an over-the-top romp where the revenge angle feels, at best, tacked on. Had it maintained a consistent tone and/or theme throughout (either the serious tone of the revenge angle or that of the romp that follows in the second half, it doesn't matter which), then it would be easier to take it for what it ended up being.

Edited by tdalton, 25 August 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[Tarl_Cabot]

It ended Pierce's run as Bond. Great ending.

[Zographos]

My question is, are any of these alternate scenarios satisfactory to all (remember my original question)?

It's a non-starter question.

FWIW, I liked all of the above suggestions. Mr_Wint's is the most brutal, because it shows what DAD was missing - a sense of fun. What's the point of having an OTT Bond film if there's no lightness or irony?

Reposted again, because I'm still laughing:

* Graves does not leave the Ice Palace. Instead he controls the satellite from the palace.
* The car chase between Bond and Zao continues far away from the Ice Palace.
* Bond kills Zao and returns home.
* Bond comes back with an army, launching a full assault with parachute rangers landing on top of the ice palace.
* While good army fights bad army, Bond saves Jinx and kills Graves.
* The Ice Palace explodes and the army returns home.
* Everyone is looking for Bond. But no one can find him - he is in the invisible car, doing Jinx and Frost...
JAMES BOND WILL RETURN

[tdalton]

My question is, are any of these alternate scenarios satisfactory to all (remember my original question)?

It's a non-starter question.

FWIW, I liked all of the above suggestions. Mr_Wint's is the most brutal, because it shows what DAD was missing - a sense of fun. What's the point of having an OTT Bond film if there's no lightness or irony?

Agreed on both counts.

I think the problem, though, with DAD is that it doesn't commit to being one kind of Bond film or the other. I think that the foundation for both a gritty espionage thriller as well as the over-the-top romp are both present in DAD. Had they committed to one or the other (and, again, it doesn't matter which), the film would have been much better because of it. You can't have an over-the-top film like DAD's second half wants to be with the comparative grittiness of the first half grounding it, and you can't have a true, gritty revenge thriller that the first half somewhat promises with the over-the-top nature that the second half contains.

[seawolfnyy]

Since there is really no way to answer the question, I'll just say that no movie can be changed to the point that it will please everyone. With that said, though, Die Another Day has earned its status as one of the more unpopular Bond films because its storyline really does fall apart in the second half. It falls apart because it goes from a story that is focused on revenge and finding out who betrayed Bond to simply being an over-the-top romp where the revenge angle feels, at best, tacked on. Had it maintained a consistent tone and/or theme throughout (either the serious tone of the revenge angle or that of the romp that follows in the second half, it doesn't matter which), then it would be easier to take it for what it ended up being.

i would agree with that. I think DAD suffers from something that also plagued QOS, which is timing. When DAD came out you had a bunch of ridiculous larger-than-life action films like XXX and The Matrix, and rather than let DAD stand as a typical Bond film, they followed suit with these other films and went sci-fi and outlandish vs. gritty and down to earth. QOS had the same problem of being in a post-Bourne/post-Batman Begins world and eschewed traditional Bond-ish elements and went for ultra-violence and realism, complete with nauseating shaky camera.

[AMC Hornet]

...I'll just say that no movie can be changed to the point that it will please everyone.

And there's my point.

Thanks, tdalton.

I guess I wasn't focussing so much on the revenge angle as I was on the fun factor when I first saw DAD. At the point where Bond is escaping from the Naval ship in Hong Kong I was wondering, "how much longer will we have to watch him schlep around all hairy and bedraggled?" Then I was rewarded when he got cleaned up and 'properly' dressed. At this point I thought, "at last, we're getting back to how Bond should be!"

Imagine my surprise upon reading subsequent critiques lamenting that Brosnan didn't go through the whole film looking like Robinson Crusoe, taking the whole run-time to escape from North Korea? I've already seen Papillon, and watching someone endure 14 months of privation over two hours is not my idea of entertainment, and certainly not my idea of a James Bond film.

But hey, that's just me. I also like DAF, TMWTGG and Octopussy, and I wouldn't change a thing about them, so that tells you where I'm coming from. Moreover, I won't be going into Skyfall expecting it to be just like any of the previous films, or to adhere to any previous era's style. That's the advantage of trying to remain spoiler-free - you don't build up these personal expectations of which Purvis, Wade & Mendes are unaware.

[Dekard77]

I like the movie, you can fast forward the bits like wave surfing,laser battle. The film had great potential but somehow Lee Tamohori can' t decide or focus on a theme. The villains are best in PB era.

If we were to be given alternate version I would add the following

*Bond and Chinese agent needed more dialogue about Zao and how to track him down. To make Bond second guess himself in believing he could've divulged information during his capture.
*Firing Peter Lamont and having a better Prod Designer to give Graves a kick liar where the final battle will include Bond killing everyone with a vengeance. Miranda should actually wound Bond in battle.
*Give Jinx better dialogue and make her character more interested in stealing technology than wanting to save the world.
*Make M more competent give her a better reason to trust Bond.

[marktmurphy]

Die Another Day has a lot of problems. I still to this day though, think the final scene of the film should've been Bond and Moneypenny. It's a beautiful scene and the virtual reality ruined it. It would've been the perfect way to honour the 40th Anniversary and end the 'classic Bond era'.

Really?! That was a good joke. Getting rid of the VR would make it very weird and crucially: not funny.

[tdalton]

Die Another Day has a lot of problems. I still to this day though, think the final scene of the film should've been Bond and Moneypenny. It's a beautiful scene and the virtual reality ruined it. It would've been the perfect way to honour the 40th Anniversary and end the 'classic Bond era'.

Really?! That was a good joke. Getting rid of the VR would make it very weird and crucially: not funny.

Agreed. The scene needed to be in VR. Making it be for real would have taken away from the humor of it, plus it would have been from so far out of left field, as there was no setup for it in the film at all, that it wouldn't have felt even more tacked on than it already did.

[DamnCoffee]

I can see your point, but the thing is with the Bond/Moneypenny scene, that it isn't even funny to start with. The only funny part about it was when Moneypenny popped up in Q's lab with her shirt unbuttoned. If you take away that scene, and the scene after, we're left with a pure Bond moment, and a lovely way to end the classic Bond era. For any other film, It would've felt 'tacked on', but this was the 40th Anniversary film, what better way to end the festivities than Bond in the arms of a woman he hasn't gotten with in 40 years? I think it felt appropriate, personally.

[tdalton]

I might agree if there had been even the slightest bit of setup for the scene in the film. As it stood already, Samantha Bond's Moneypenny was the most stand-offish in her approach to Bond when compared to the other two incarnations of the character. I also never really got the feeling that she cared all that much about Bond, aside from perhaps a physical attraction to him, or at least not to the degree that the other two Moneypenny characters cared for Bond. It was clear that Maxwell's Moneypenny cared deeply for Bond on a level that went beyond a simple physical attraction, and Caroline Bliss' version of the character practically threw herself at Bond every chance she got and went behind M's back to find him in LICENCE TO KILL so she could send Q to help him. Bond's Moneypenny, however, seemed (at least as far as I can remember) to focus more on the physical attraction the two share and their desire to trade innuendo-laden comments rather than there really being any focus on the fact that Moneypenny actually cares for Bond in a more meaningful way.

[seawolfnyy]

That is true. I never cared for either Bliss or Bond. As I said in another thread, Bliss was terrible and just threw herself at Bond every chance she got. There was no playful banter and Bond didn't seem to have any attachment. Samantha, on the other hand, was rather cold to Bond. The only two times she even showed the slightest interest were a lame line in TWINE and the scene in DAD. It almost seems as if Moneypenny should've been retired after AVTAK. I haven't missed her much in the Craig era, although were she to come back, I think Emily Blunt could pull off a good Moneypenny.

[David_M]

I think they almost had it with the VR scenes, but one more rewrite would have got it right:

Everything happens the way it does in the actual film, except at the very end the image blurs and when it settles down we're looking at the drunk guy who cameos in TSWLM, MR and FYEO. Shaking himself awake, he grabs the empty bottle sitting next to him, looks at it comptemptuously and tosses it angrily to the floor, having finally learned his lesson. The camera closes in on the shards of broken bottle, onto which is projected clips of all four Brosnan films as the end credits roll.

[Publius]

To be honest, I think the ending is fine, what I would have focused on is the dialogue throughout the movie. None of the "double entendres" actually have a double meaning, it's pretty obvious what all the characters are really saying -- and it's never funny or entertaining.

Bond banter at its best (see Thunderball) has at least a hint of nuance and is how real human beings might communicate in a world where everyone always knows the perfect thing to say. Even when Connery let loose with his cheesiest, least subtle attempts at wit, he did so with an almost deprecating self-awareness, which actually reinforced his cool factor.

Contrast that with Die Another Day, where absurd combinations of words are uttered with bizarre defiance, which tells me they know they're committing capital crimes against the gift of language but just don't care... it's like the proud ignorance of Sarah Palin's ramblings on public policy. Sure, you can call it confidence, on a technicality. But that just stretches the concept to the point of distorting it beyond meaning.

And it's not even Brosnan's Bond who's at fault most of the time, but that makes it worse since I would have an easier time forgiving the main character and hero of the story. He actually has the look of a man who's trapped, captured in his own mind perhaps, as if the whole thing is a freakish recurring nightmare of his where everyone he interacts with out-Bonds him... maybe they're all in on the joke and are just making fun of him!

Anyway, change all that, plus cut out the now infamous in-movie preview of Pixar's "Ice Age: The Meltdown", and you have a much more enjoyable guilty pleasure of a Bond movie.

[THX-007]

How it should've ended: Jinx fails to start the helicopter =)