91 replies to this topic

[Shrublands]

And the zeitgeist that has changed enormously since the late 80´s.

A dark, brooding hero? Then: "UNFUN!" - Now: "Mandatory. Anything else would be so silly."
Bond going out on a personal mission for revenge? Then: "TOO MUCH RAMBO-ESQUE!" - Now: "It has to have that emotional angle to explore the character´s many shades!"

In my experience, the same people who disliked the Dalton films then dislike them now, but have taken to Craig and particularly CR.

[x007AceOfSpades]

I don't think that anything big will come of this. I do think it's being blown a bit out of proportion. I'm sure they will explore Bond's feelings toward killing briefly, but if anything I think we'll be seeing (at least early on in the film after his accident) the toll the job takes on him. That's my read, anyway, and I doubt it'll be too grim. They promised it to be a lighter film, and I trust them.

I agree with you as well. I don't think it's that big of a deal anyways. It's surely still going to be amazing film either way. We really can't tell too much until we see the trailer and the finished product.
There's my two-cents on this topic.

[Royal Dalton]

In my experience, the same people who disliked the Dalton films then dislike them now, but have taken to Craig and particularly CR.

Well, there's no accounting for taste (or lack of it). Dalton and Craig are both cut from the same cloth, as far as I'm concerned.

But one man's meat is another man's murder, etc.

[AMC Hornet]

We had soul-searching in LTK and QoS. I wants me some TB/SWLM/TND action fun!

Maybe next time...

[Napoleon Solo]

I do think Bond enjoys his job. He is rather dubious about killing people. Especially those he has no personal problems with. That could be a reason for a slight black mood from time to time.

But a real depression? I would rather have him lighten up and become more of a professional who thinks the perks of his job outweighs the moral indignities.

And wasn´t SKYFALL supposed to be more FUN?

There was a quote attributed to Craig from the same press conference that Bond either is a lot of fun, or has a lot of fun in Skyfall compared with the last two movies.

[smudge76]

Of literary Bond, one of the best introspective bits is from Goldfinger - "Reflections in a Double Bourbon" - Bond doesn't get any "rush" from killing, but does note that he's good at it when it has to be done - be it on orders or simply by self defense. He's trained for it and when you are regularly trained in skills such as his for combat and being a soldier, it's driven into you so that it almost becomes reflex. No thought, the body and mind respond to a threat. With Bond, it's also a job skill inasmuch as any of us have skills. His are just more focused on lethal action.

"While it's happening, you don't think much about it," Bond answered flatly. "It's a reflex. You do it and you don't hesitate. If you're wise, and want to go on living, you don't think about it afterwards either. I've known men who've had breakdowns-go for early retirement on half pension - for thinking about it afterwards. There's nothing to tell, my dear Q'u...Ann. I try not to remember. That way I remain detached from its reality." - Licence Renewed - Chapter 5 - "The Road To Ascot"

A former FBI man who taught me a thing or two about firearms once told me : "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. Don't hesitate. No second place winner."

Very well put in fact near perfect. Bond has been trained to kill and his training would'nt have come from MI6 it be from his days in SBS and his entire service with UKSF. So people need to remember just because he had the first to kills for six in CR he would seen death especially in Iraq and afghanistan so depression been wrong word but it would no surprise to expect bond to be showing slight symptoms of PTSD like most soldiers etc who served in hostile area and come under fire do. It could be to the extreme or maybe small things, because for years he would of been living on orange (ref to colour codes that conflict situations) that is stage your at when your ready for the conflict be it guns,bullets,fist etc. When your in places like sangin, mosul,and other hot locations in a dangerous job you are constantly in that state for months so imagine how hard it is to come down to white (it is near impossible)and will of course be in a constant state as such, so it would be silly not to expect mild reflection and symptoms of PTSD. It is what we expect from our heroes on film today a slight bit of realism and one major turning points was the bourne films it had affect on everything including Bond and i for one think it is great. Well in Mr Craig

[smudge76]

Even in CR and QOS he was having more fun than, say, Dalton.

Nonsense. I've yet to see Craig give as a goofy a grin as Dalton in the Prater amusement park.

I can’t agree with that, I’ve talked to a lot of people as to why they never took to Dalton and the answer is always along the same lines - He seems to be in such a terrible mood all the time, it’s wearing to watch. He might give a ‘goofy’ grin there, but the overall impression is very dyspeptic.

Have to agree with Shrublands. Long have i debated with my mates about the different Bond's and the way the different actors portrayed him.

One thing i will never forget is when we got round to Dalton. Dyspeptic, yes, but it's more than that, as my good friend put it: "He's a psychopath," he said. He was referring to that scene in TLD when Bond waits for Pushkin in his hotel room, mainly. And i have to say i agree. There is something very unnerving about Dalton's Bond, as much as i love him.

Psychopath ha ha that made me laugh, did your friend get upset when dalton tore the birds dress off or when he butt stroked the russian ???? he looked like a pussy cat i suggest he does not join the British Army (especially Paras) he would not last. Unnerving ...... was Dalton licking his lips when he butt stroked Pushkin or rubbing his hands with excitement after violently removing that dress...my 5 year old son has more physco expressions. I laughed when i saw that because surely people cannot be so sheltered from real world, come around to my gym i show you physco

[Shrublands]

Psychopath ha ha that made me laugh, did your friend get upset when dalton tore the birds dress off or when he butt stroked the russian ???? he looked like a pussy cat i suggest he does not join the British Army (especially Paras) he would not last. Unnerving ...... was Dalton licking his lips when he butt stroked Pushkin or rubbing his hands with excitement after violently removing that dress...my 5 year old son has more physco expressions. I laughed when i saw that because surely people cannot be so sheltered from real world, come around to my gym i show you physco

Charming.

[Pussfeller]

Psychopath ha ha that made me laugh, did your friend get upset when dalton tore the birds dress off or when he butt stroked the russian ???? he looked like a pussy cat i suggest he does not join the British Army (especially Paras) he would not last. Unnerving ...... was Dalton licking his lips when he butt stroked Pushkin or rubbing his hands with excitement after violently removing that dress...my 5 year old son has more physco expressions. I laughed when i saw that because surely people cannot be so sheltered from real world, come around to my gym i show you physco

On yogurt and lemon juice?

[Royal Dalton]

Still, it's good to know they're showing Alfred Hitchcock films in gyms these days. Although, I would have thought The 39 Steps would have been more appropriate.

[Zographos]

Still, it's good to know they're showing Alfred Hitchcock films in gyms these days. Although, I would have thought The 39 Steps would have been more appropriate.

I only go to the gym for The Birds.

[Royal Dalton]

Well, you make sure you don't work yourself up into a Frenzy.

[glidrose]

Well, you make sure you don't work yourself up into a Frenzy.

Or it will be a Short Night.

[AMC Hornet]

I'm going to the gym too, but I'm skipping Rope.

[perdogg]

I do think Bond enjoys his job. He is rather dubious about killing people. Especially those he has no personal problems with. That could be a reason for a slight black mood from time to time.

But a real depression? I would rather have him lighten up and become more of a professional who thinks the perks of his job outweighs the moral indignities.

And wasn´t SKYFALL supposed to be more FUN?

Has he really read any of novels? Is Bond going to be sent to a therapist and give Zoloft?

[glidrose]

I do think Bond enjoys his job. He is rather dubious about killing people. Especially those he has no personal problems with. That could be a reason for a slight black mood from time to time.

But a real depression? I would rather have him lighten up and become more of a professional who thinks the perks of his job outweighs the moral indignities.

And wasn´t SKYFALL supposed to be more FUN?

Has he really read any of novels? Is Bond going to be sent to a therapist and give Zoloft?

You mean like in Fleming's YOLT?

I'm convinced that the producers have their eyes on an Academy Award nomination for best picture, especially now that ten films get nominated.

In my experience, the same people who disliked the Dalton films then dislike them now, but have taken to Craig and particularly CR.

Well, there's no accounting for taste (or lack of it). Dalton and Craig are both cut from the same cloth, as far as I'm concerned.

But one man's meat is another man's murder, etc.

Thanks Shrublands. I've said before and I'll say it again: Dalton and Craig are like chalk and cheese. I think Craig is bloody fantastic and Dalton is my least favorite. Don't understand how anybody can consider those two cut from the same cloth.

[Zographos]

I'm convinced that the producers have their eyes on an Academy Award nomination for best picture, especially now that ten films get nominated.

I seriously doubt they have much interest in Oscars. They've never once expanded Eon out of Bond and into something that could, you know, conceivably win an award.

I think their experimentation is more akin to Fleming's toward the end of his run - just trying to get out of the hum-drum routine. Remember that Fleming's later work was much more radical than anything the Brosnan/Craig era has put forward. I mean, can you imagine Naomie Harris as Skyfall's main character, with the first half of the movie dedicated to outlining her abortions, before a couple of mobsters burn down Skyfall for insurance money? Or an actionless travelogue through Japan? Soviet assassin Bond?

[Royal Dalton]

Don't understand how anybody can consider those two cut from the same cloth.

Very easily.

[glidrose]

I'm convinced that the producers have their eyes on an Academy Award nomination for best picture, especially now that ten films get nominated.

I seriously doubt they have much interest in Oscars. They've never once expanded Eon out of Bond and into something that could, you know, conceivably win an award.

That's because Bond has them busy full time.

Let's see... the Bond producers have working for them an academy-award winning director, and a twice-nominated writer. Yep, they've got their eyes on an Oscar nod for Skyfall.

[Zographos]

That's because Bond has them busy full time.

Let's see... the Bond producers have working for them an academy-award winning director, and a twice-nominated writer. Yep, they've got their eyes on an Oscar nod for Skyfall.

Hitchcock and Cary Grant were asked to do the first Bond film. Hitchcock turned it down and Grant wouldn't sign to more than one film. Bond has always sought Oscar talent, it's just that they're able to secure more of it now.

There's no way Skyfall is getting nominated for Best Film, and everyone involved knows it. Mendes laughed down the idea when asked, which shows how much he's trying to curry favour with the Academy.

[glidrose]

There's no way Skyfall is getting nominated for Best Film, and everyone involved knows it. Mendes laughed down the idea when asked, which shows how much he's trying to curry favour with the Academy.

...we shall see...

Edited by glidrose, 01 May 2012 - 12:08 AM.

[Pussfeller]

Oscars are given to "Oscar films", a well-defined genre in its own right. The Bond producers aren't going to waste time and resources pursuing an impossibility. The reason they hire talented people is because they can afford them. Prestige is a business expense. It's one of the hallmarks of the Bond franchise, and helps to distinguish it from competing action franchises.

[glidrose]

Oscars are given to "Oscar films", a well-defined genre in its own right. The Bond producers aren't going to waste time and resources pursuing an impossibility. The reason they hire talented people is because they can afford them. Prestige is a business expense. It's one of the hallmarks of the Bond franchise, and helps to distinguish it from competing action franchises.

Who said anything about winning? Not sure what you mean by "wasting time and resources pursuing an impossibility". I said merely getting a nomination.

I guess you didn't see all those "for your consideration" ads during the Brosnan era in Variety. Brosnan for best actor, pic for best film, etc, etc.

In a single year the following films all got best picture nominations: Avatar, District 9, Inglourious Basterds, and Up. Not exactly traditional Oscar fare.

[JCRendle]

The Dark Knight got 8 nominations including an acting nod, so it's possible that if Skyfall is done well, along the lines of Royale - which I think deserved more recognition.

[Shrublands]

In my experience, the same people who disliked the Dalton films then dislike them now, but have taken to Craig and particularly CR.

Well, there's no accounting for taste (or lack of it). Dalton and Craig are both cut from the same cloth, as far as I'm concerned.

But one man's meat is another man's murder, etc.

Not particularly reflective of my taste. I'm talking about my perception (and only my perception) of popular opinion.
And that is, that whilst both actors have attempted to actually act Fleming’s Bond on screen (something that is quite particular to Craig and Dalton), Dalton ended up showing a sour, stuffy quality that audiences found it difficult to relate to and stayed away in their millions.
There has been no such problem with Craig’s similar approach but different outcome.

[SecretAgentFan]

Once again - perception is always closely linked to the everchanging views of a particular era.

Dalton came after Moore, and lots of people were tired of James Bond at that time.

Craig came after Brosnan, and lots of people were just excited to see James Bond again.

Dalton was not a muscular beast like Craig but took the role just as seriously, with a dark and sinister humor underneath.

Both are trying to portray Bond more realistically than their predecessors. But in the late 80´s Dalton just did not have the advantage of being welcomed by audiences who loved their Burton-Batman, Indiana Jones AND the "funny psychopathic Mel Gibson"-Lethal Weapon-films.

Those who still dislike Dalton but embrace Craig have just filed Dalton under failure. They should risk another look.

[Shrublands]

Once again - perception is always closely linked to the everchanging views of a particular era.

Dalton came after Moore, and lots of people were tired of James Bond at that time.

Craig came after Brosnan, and lots of people were just excited to see James Bond again.

Dalton was not a muscular beast like Craig but took the role just as seriously, with a dark and sinister humor underneath.

Both are trying to portray Bond more realistically than their predecessors. But in the late 80´s Dalton just did not have the advantage of being welcomed by audiences who loved their Burton-Batman, Indiana Jones AND the "funny psychopathic Mel Gibson"-Lethal Weapon-films.

Those who still dislike Dalton but embrace Craig have just filed Dalton under failure. They should risk another look.

Once again – I’ve known people to give it another look and they still don’t like it for the very same reasons they didn’t like it back then. I’ve also known younger people who weren’t born in the late 80s take a look and say something like, “God, he seems in such a bad mood, what’s wrong with him?”
A bad-tempered, dyspeptic performance that is uncomfortable and wearing to watch.

[d21089]

I would prefer bad tempered and dyspeptic to the bad and septic (tank) performance of Brosnan
But seriously, i think it takes a certain type to get Dalton and as said he doesnt have the joys of an era appreciative of dark and moody retakes on beloved heroes and anti heroes of yore- or scripts written by Oscar nominated writers.

And alot of people think James Bond is some kind of douchey, winking, Blade meets Bourne dude, fist bumping his bros after copulating... so it doesnt surprise me they think Dalton is moody and psycopathic because he shows "emotion" - but honestly, I've never found the Dalton films humourless or the Craig films, I find them more funny than Brosnan's stand up comedy routine waiting for people to applause

[Shrublands]

Both the “comedy” given Brosnan and his attempts at acting all deep, are like nails being scratched down a blackboard as far as I’m concerned. And it got worse with each film.
Yes, give me Dalton's "moody psycho" a hundred times before that.

[Royal Dalton]

Not particularly reflective of my taste. I'm talking about my perception (and only my perception) of popular opinion.
And that is, that whilst both actors have attempted to actually act Fleming’s Bond on screen (something that is quite particular to Craig and Dalton), Dalton ended up showing a sour, stuffy quality that audiences found it difficult to relate too and stayed away in their millions.

Did they, though? The Living Daylights made more money than A View to a Kill, and Licence To Kill made only very slightly less than it (and even then it was hampered by being given a 15 certificate). I don't remember anybody saying A View to a Kill was a flop.

It would have been much the same result if Brosnan, or anyone else, was playing the character in those films at that time.

Also, Licence To Kill had the highest viewing figures of any film shown on British television in 1994. So Dalton couldn't have been that hated.

There has been no such problem with Craig’s similar approach but different outcome.

Craig's films, like Brosnan's, are promoted to the hilt. The hard sell can do wonders for a film.