Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

Q and Moneypenny will be back


220 replies to this topic

#211 Trident

Trident

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2658 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 05 March 2010 - 05:50 PM

As Purvis and Wade have said - we all have gadgets. We all have communication, tracking, trekking, orienteering, information-bearing, relationship-forming devices on our phones let alone anywhere else.


Do we also have miniature guns hidden in everyday items, hypodermic umbrellas, pepper spray cuff-links, tear gas watches, knife-pens, and clue spray contained in aftershave?

The team of technicians in CR and QOS is much more fitting into the tone and direction of recent years.


Doesn't mean that sterile and banal tone and direction, along with the teams you mentioned, has to continue.

Wake up and smell the 2010s.


Can't help it, all that, miniature guns, hypodermic umbrellas, pepper spray cuff-links, tear gas watches, knife-pens, and clue spray contained in aftershave, feels pretty passé, unnecessary and forced.

#212 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 06 March 2010 - 10:00 PM

As Purvis and Wade have said - we all have gadgets. We all have communication, tracking, trekking, orienteering, information-bearing, relationship-forming devices on our phones let alone anywhere else.


Do we also have miniature guns hidden in everyday items, hypodermic umbrellas, pepper spray cuff-links, tear gas watches, knife-pens, and clue spray contained in aftershave?

The team of technicians in CR and QOS is much more fitting into the tone and direction of recent years.


Doesn't mean that sterile and banal tone and direction, along with the teams you mentioned, has to continue.

Wake up and smell the 2010s.


Can't help it, all that, miniature guns, hypodermic umbrellas, pepper spray cuff-links, tear gas watches, knife-pens, and clue spray contained in aftershave, feels pretty passé, unnecessary and forced.


Why? I'm confounded.

Of course they should be updated, with modern 21st century counterparts, but I'd rather that than anything readily accessible to the general public. Bond should operate dangerous and concealable contraptions, after all he's a counter-intelligence agent.

Is Bond's profession based around communication, tracking, trekking, orienteering, information-bearing, and relationship-forming with M?

If so, God help him. Even Al-Qaeda would have the upper hand with a home-made bomb, all Bond has is a highly advanced i-phone!

Sometimes being passée and anachronistic has its merits, particularly when dealing with a character like Bond.

#213 Safari Suit

Safari Suit

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5099 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted 07 March 2010 - 09:54 AM

I am not chomping at the bit for the return of gadgets, but I have to admit I have never really understood the logic behind the "we have mobile phones now so we're not interested in gadgets anymore" line of argument, be it stated by Purvis and Wade or anyone else. There are plenty of things we have in real life we still see on screen, and let's not forget this is hardly the first era where the public have been preoccupied with their own gadgets; it was the case in the "you've never had it so good" 50s before the first frame of Dr. No was ever shot. So could anyone explain this argument to me?

#214 Trident

Trident

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2658 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 07 March 2010 - 05:47 PM

Well, the argument would not be 'we have mobiles, so we don't need gadgets any more'. Not just. B)

First of all, I would like to differentiate between two kinds of gadgets, those 'serious' ones like weapons, bugs, tracking equipment, so on. And those over-the-top ones like invisible cars, x-ray glasses or laser watches. Sometimes, the line is not easily drawn, such as with the ticker-tape SEIKO or countless explosives hidden in the watch and detonated with a button on the device. My personal feeling is, the OTT category should be avoided at all costs.

What we need to look at is, what kind of effect did the gadgets have in the past and what would be their effect today (if any)? Both kinds initially got a 'Gosh! Cool!' from the audience. The OTT category more often than no also 'achieved' cheers, laughter and amusement with the more recent past seeing the chuckles increasingly mingled with groaning.

That doesn't mean there is no room for laughs in a Bond any more. They just would come from a different situation, wouldn't be rooted in slapstick/comic tradition any more.

So OTT is not en vogue any more (at the moment), ok. But what about the 'serious' gadgets? I agree, there would still seem to be use for them at a first glance. But the good old 'Look at that! Fantastic!' effect wouldn't be present any more. We are used to this kind of technology by now. And keeping things beyond what is currently available on the market already doesn't really serve the purpose, as audiences are confident to find most gee whiz toys by next Christmas in shops. There is no sense of wonder any more connected to technology and most likely never will be again.

My principal witness for this would be ALIAS, a show that played all the classic elements of the genre up and down and regularly employed any number of gadgets. Yet those scenes (which I greatly enjoyed) never really achieved the 'Gosh!' reaction any more. They were entertaining chiefly for the value of Kevin Weisman, a nicely 'normal' guy in the world of superspies, yet a geek coming up with all kinds of equipment. But the actual gadgets of ALIAS were pretty much forgettable props without any value beyond enabling a certain kind of action or plot twist. I for one can't remember a single one.

But does this discount gadgets for Bond? No, not at all. And in fact they are still there. They are just nothing that has to be explained any more beyond a given stage. The tracking chip in CR would be an example. No need for contrived 'pay attention' scenes or magically just-for-THIS-purpose devices that would be a terrible nuisance to drag around as every-day-carry. The emphasis would be on innocuous items that could be of use even in high security surroundings. What should Bond need more? Some of the worst terrorists used Stanley knives from the DIY market. Bond's value as an agent lies in Bond, not in his equipment.

#215 Safari Suit

Safari Suit

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5099 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted 07 March 2010 - 08:40 PM

Well, the argument would not be 'we have mobiles, so we don't need gadgets any more'. Not just. B)


Of course not just, but it still seems to me to be a fair simplification of the bigger picture.

There is no sense of wonder any more connected to technology and most likely never will be again.


I don't know if I'd agree with that, there seems to be as much or more of a preoccupation with technology than ever, and that indicates (to me) that people are still capable of being "wowed" by it.

So OTT is not en vogue any more (at the moment)


No, it is not. Or then again, is it? Looking at last year's top grossers the phrase "down to earth" doesn't come to mind very often.

Now I must reiterate, because sadly some will instantly assume otherwise, that I do not particularly crave an OTT Bond 23, or more gadgets. I actually thought QOS (and to a lesser extent CR) did a good job of including elements that fulfilled the role of gadgets without actually being gadgets per say. But the "official" line of reasoning sometimes does not ring true to me. Of course you don't need a line of reasoning to justify artistic choices, which is why I might be fine with the choices without buying the supposed motive.

#216 Trident

Trident

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2658 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 07 March 2010 - 09:40 PM

Now I must reiterate, because sadly some will instantly assume otherwise, that I do not particularly crave an OTT Bond 23, or more gadgets. I actually thought QOS (and to a lesser extent CR) did a good job of including elements that fulfilled the role of gadgets without actually being gadgets per say. But the "official" line of reasoning sometimes does not ring true to me. Of course you don't need a line of reasoning to justify artistic choices, which is why I might be fine with the choices without buying the supposed motive.



Perhaps it's more to do with the general shift the Bond genre saw recently, than the specific element of gadgets within this genre. Bond is still escapist fun, but the basis this process starts from is too close to our own reality, which has become somewhat more serious during the last decade. Of course we're all pretty much involved with technology (we wouldn't have www and CBn without it, for example) but this has become rapidly every-day stuff, available for most of us. New items and technologies are the rave, but only really for a very short time. Force-feeding something that's really fantastic and achieving wow-factor would run a high risk of arriving at invisible cars and groans once more, directly in la-la-land of OTT.

That fantastic entertainment is still going strong, as seen in the BO results, wouldn't necessarily be a contradiction here. Bond claims to be situated in our world (or so close to our own as to make distinction impossible i.e. indifferent). So Bond's reality has to mirror our own, on different levels of the films, a similar general situation in society, politics, technology and so on. Those top scorers of 2009 come from fantasy/comic/sf genre and do not have this claim. They can (and do) shape their specific universes after their own needs and audience expectation does not (always) include a reality-based plot. Bond on the other hand has to walk a thin line between remaining not overtly unrealistic and still distinguish himself from a strong and growing competition, remaining in a class of his own.

It's hard for me to nail it. Much of the argument is made up by a gut feeling. And this feeling tells me the current Bond can't take off his watch and cut inch-thick steel with a laser cannon any more.

#217 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 08 March 2010 - 01:03 AM

So OTT is not en vogue any more (at the moment), ok. But what about the 'serious' gadgets? I agree, there would still seem to be use for them at a first glance. But the good old 'Look at that! Fantastic!' effect wouldn't be present any more.


I'm not really talking about that either, no more than I am with invisible cars and crocodile submarines.

We are used to this kind of technology by now. And keeping things beyond what is currently available on the market already doesn't really serve the purpose, as audiences are confident to find most gee whiz toys by next Christmas in shops.


I highly doubt that say something like Grant's lethal book gun from the literary FRWL would be in for the winter sales.

But does this discount gadgets for Bond? No, not at all. And in fact they are still there. They are just nothing that has to be explained any more beyond a given stage. The tracking chip in CR would be an example. No need for contrived 'pay attention' scenes or magically just-for-THIS-purpose devices that would be a terrible nuisance to drag around as every-day-carry. The emphasis would be on innocuous items that could be of use even in high security surroundings. What should Bond need more? Some of the worst terrorists used Stanley knives from the DIY market. Bond's value as an agent lies in Bond, not in his equipment.


I think the CR/QOS spproach to gadgets, is swinging too far in the other direction for its good. At one end you have the laughable, purely for jokes gismos, an anachronism, that wouldn't work at all today (at least not at present), then you have the reactionary counter to that - almost militantly dull, forgettable, dei ex machina, providing little sense of awe (there doesn't have to be much, but some is always better than none), spectacle, flying under the radar of the audiences attention. That is mainly a hypersensitive reaction out of fear of being labelled and mocked as passé and cheesy in the post-Austin Powers era, but it is also somewhat cowardly, and results from a misunderstanding of Bond's world.

A balance needs to be struck, and the novels effectively maintained that from day one. Bond's gadgets now need to be impressive, realistic, explainable, deadly, unpredictable, and imaginative. The fine line between fantasy and verity.

#218 Trident

Trident

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2658 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 08 March 2010 - 09:06 AM

No, I don't seriously suspect the return of the crocodile mini-sub (or was that a crocodile suit with inflatable floating buoy?) would be a welcome element even for those of us craving more gadgets. As you say, a balance is necessary, but this is an extremely difficult task where audiences see certain devices as a given. ALIAS had hundreds of gadgets without a single one standing out. They serve their purpose within the plotlines but cannot generate that moment of surprise any more. Perhaps it's too much to ask for this side of the gadget department today.

Fleming's own practice was to use whatever crossed his way, but actual gadgets were relatively sparse. And often he mentioned some device without actually using it later on. Take the Aston's ability to change colour and type of front and rear lights or steel-reinforced bumpers. None of that is actually used (the 'accident with Tilly's Triumph would not have needed the reinforcement). That famous long-barrelled Colt .45, a staple diet of Bond's cars, is not a single time shot in the whole canon. He's running a certain risk dragging the piece around, but has never had any use for it. It's merely mentioned to show a detail of his dangerous life as secret agent. (And apparently one that isn't even approved by the authorities, or M could simply have asked back the Colt from the police, who found such a gun in the wreck of Bond's Bentley. Instead, he had to give him a new one and become an accomplice in Bond's offence. But secret services are not typically paid for playing by the rules and neither are their heads.) The only gadget really making a difference in the books was the attache with the hidden knife.

For some time I thought a good 'gadget' (of sorts) would be giving Bond a handgun especially crafted for him by the Service. But, apart from all sorts of product placement reasons preventing it, this would actually be an even more ridiculous idea, singling Bond out the wrong way and creating a massive security risk at the same time. Also, to make audiences aware of the significance of this particular device, one would have to re-enact a typical gadget scene. Somehow I don't see that happening any more. It's dead wood, empty space, wasted time, serving no purpose but spreading the past's ashes across a film of today. Nobody had difficulty to understand what the Aston in CR and QOS is good for, what the different compartments contain. These things are self-explaining, the audience can understand them on an intuitive level. I can think of no way to explain the significance of a custom handgun in the same way and it would be a dangerous item threatening Bond's cover and ability to move.

Other things, micro-camera, tracking devices and so on, are not dwelled upon any more. It's no big deal, Bond has a homing card, his mobile is probably encrypted beyond my own model and the pics it shoots are really remarkable. But there would be no reason to boast with that stuff. Where would be the beef? You see, the little helpers are still there, we just don't get a commercial for them in the bargain.

#219 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 08 March 2010 - 10:19 PM

No, I don't seriously suspect the return of the crocodile mini-sub (or was that a crocodile suit with inflatable floating buoy?) would be a welcome element even for those of us craving more gadgets. As you say, a balance is necessary, but this is an extremely difficult task where audiences see certain devices as a given. ALIAS had hundreds of gadgets without a single one standing out. They serve their purpose within the plotlines but cannot generate that moment of surprise any more. Perhaps it's too much to ask for this side of the gadget department today.


I sort of agree. Though one way to tackle this would be to provide Bond with a select amount of gadgets, and have each of them memorable entities, even more so that in the past Bond films. Have Bond keep these devices throughout the film, with them breaking down, needing repair, being replaced by a Mark II etc...

Give some life to an old Bond tradition, no need to abandon it.

Fleming's own practice was to use whatever crossed his way, but actual gadgets were relatively sparse. And often he mentioned some device without actually using it later on. Take the Aston's ability to change colour and type of front and rear lights or steel-reinforced bumpers. None of that is actually used (the 'accident with Tilly's Triumph would not have needed the reinforcement). That famous long-barrelled Colt .45, a staple diet of Bond's cars, is not a single time shot in the whole canon. He's running a certain risk dragging the piece around, but has never had any use for it. It's merely mentioned to show a detail of his dangerous life as secret agent. (And apparently one that isn't even approved by the authorities, or M could simply have asked back the Colt from the police, who found such a gun in the wreck of Bond's Bentley. Instead, he had to give him a new one and become an accomplice in Bond's offence. But secret services are not typically paid for playing by the rules and neither are their heads.) The only gadget really making a difference in the books was the attache with the hidden knife.


Indeed, in fact most of the gadgets from the novels belonged to the villains. So maybe that might be an idea? Give Bond a basic "armourer", and have most of the concealed weaponry dealt out by Quantum's own Q.

For some time I thought a good 'gadget' (of sorts) would be giving Bond a handgun especially crafted for him by the Service.


Reminds me somewhat of the 'Signature Gun' in LTK, though of course that's an advanced rifle not a handgun.

Also, to make audiences aware of the significance of this particular device, one would have to re-enact a typical gadget scene.


It doesn't have to be typical or by the numbers. I'm sure a new take could be provided, more in the line with the early Young films.

Somehow I don't see that happening any more. It's dead wood, empty space, wasted time, serving no purpose but spreading the past's ashes across a film of today.


That sounds needlessly defeatist. I think you greatly underestimate the desires of most cinema-goers (though I don't claim to speak for them, mind you).

Nobody had difficulty to understand what the Aston in CR and QOS is good for, what the different compartments contain. These things are self-explaining, the audience can understand them on an intuitive level.


I think that's largely because we've become accustomed, almost conditioned to knowing that an Aston Martin in a Bond film generally means business. Even if doesn't have stinger missiles and a deflector shield, it still has some utilitarian equipment - i.e. serum containers, epi-pens, guns, silencers, defibrillators, and armour plating (basically giving carte blanche to perform the tedious 'henchmen fire at Bond's car with heavy duty machine guns and is never hit' scenario when needed).

When Bond is provided with an ordinary device, that might possibly have an ulterior function - the ordinance have no knowledge, thus it needs some kind of explaining.

While perhaps contrived, the customary Q scene provides this brilliantly. Perhaps more importantly though, it can also help give some insight into Bond's work life at the HQ, and begins to explore the world that Fleming crafted.

I can think of no way to explain the significance of a custom handgun in the same way and it would be a dangerous item threatening Bond's cover and ability to move.


If depends how large and cumbersome this theoretical firearm is. I was thinking of a miniature gun firing lethal pellets, which could be hidden in any number of ordinary objects - i-pods, phones, key-rings, padlocks, books, pens, cloths etc...

Other things, micro-camera, tracking devices and so on, are not dwelled upon any more. It's no big deal, Bond has a homing card, his mobile is probably encrypted beyond my own model and the pics it shoots are really remarkable.


Quite, though I'm talking about devices other than phones and tracking devices.

But there would be no reason to boast with that stuff. Where would be the beef? You see, the little helpers are still there, we just don't get a commercial for them in the bargain.


I'm not talking about those particular helpers, they're already covered for relatively well.

#220 AgentPB

AgentPB

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 407 posts
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 09 March 2010 - 10:05 PM

I just hope they find a way to make the characters fit. As has been said previously the Q character is not really as necessary today as the gadgets almost surround us in everyday life. When the movies do give us something like an invisible car which would need explanation the backlash begins for such a gadget being too unrealistic. Q will be a hard role to write but I have confidence that they can come up with gadgets that are realistic and yet very cool. Like an iPad type tablet that Bond can use to get a real time satellite image allowing him to get the drop on some baddies. Moneypenny should be an easier character and I look forward to seeing her and Craig's Bond having a chemistry. I think both should be young European actors fit to really rival Bond. Or I would cast the actor and than write the role around them.

#221 Leon

Leon

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1574 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 05 April 2010 - 08:28 AM

I feel very strongly about Q and Moneypenny being brought back in with stylish understatement. Below is a link to my Fan Fiction screenplay, and a few pages down you will find how I worked these characters into my story - how I'd like to see it done:

http://debrief.comma...=0#entry1097358