101 replies to this topic

[sharpshooter]

The single shot to the forehead by Bunt is such a classic ending. It is traditionally downboat, and for that reason it is why people end the film not liking it.

People I know comment on Lazenby's reaction negatively. Opinions from he was too weak, from him being totally beaten. The filming of the event with George crying was a hot topic. I remind them his new wife had just been murdered.

I think he handled it well. Bond is beaten and total defenseless, while that is the point ,I still think that he could of given a dark, angry look to the windscreen. It would of been perfect ending for the follow up he could of given.

A. What are your opinions on how Lazenby handles the scene?
B. How would each Bond react to such an event?

Edited by sharpshooter, 15 June 2007 - 01:42 PM.

[Keir]

Interesting question, that of how much Bond should display the most personal emotions.
I think you could compare Lazenby with the latest example where Craig appears inconsolable at the death of Vesper. My criticism of Lazenby's reaction was that it seemed far too weak. If it had been Craig and the killer was getting away, he would have driven through hell to obtain his revenge. Lazenby just cried and, worst of all, was absolutely useless. He was so lost and helpless that it makes me question his suitability to be a 00. You're right- it was his wife, for God's sake, and he just sits there playing with her hair! Next movie and he's chatting amiably with the killer...

[Mister Asterix]

Lazenby played it dead on to what Fleming wrote, so was therefore exactly how Bond would have reacted. The only thing better may be the scene on the cutting room floor where Laz squirted some tears, but without actually seeing I’d have to say that Hunt may have been right not to use it.

[darkpath]

I must agree with Mr. * that it was dead on with Fleming, so perfect.

That being said, it was so moving and effected me so deeply that I was very much on edge and on my guard at my own wedding, even though I wasn't fully aware of why until later.

If there was a defect at all, it was in having the subsequent film not cover the revenge angle adequately; but that was in no way, shape, or form, GL's fault.

[Santa]

If there was a defect at all, it was in having the subsequent film not cover the revenge angle adequately; but that was in no way, shape, or form, GL's fault.

That's exactly what the failing is. I wouldn't like GL to have gone any further down the crying road, quiet devastation is far more emotional for me personally, but the next film should have built on Tracy's death and it's a shame George never got to do that.

[Jericho_One]

If there was a defect at all, it was in having the subsequent film not cover the revenge angle adequately; but that was in no way, shape, or form, GL's fault.

That's exactly what the failing is. I wouldn't like GL to have gone any further down the crying road, quiet devastation is far more emotional for me personally, but the next film should have built on Tracy's death and it's a shame George never got to do that.

A shame indeed.

[MHazard]

Lazenby handled it the way Fleming wrote it (and he was reading the end of the novel for inspiration right before filming it). Bond is shattered by the death of Tracy and he remains shattered at the beginning of YOLT the novel. Hence the end line "we have all the time in the world". It is one of Laz's two finest moments as Bond-the other being his scene of utter exhaustion at the ice rink, also as Fleming wrote it-for more pontificating on this see my thread on Lazenby: Fleming's Bond or Poor Man's Connery.

Now, as to how would the other Bonds have handled it. I have always wished Connery had been given the opportunity to play OHMSS as written and was forced to play it straight. I think if he could have done it it would have been the ultimate Bond moment. My biggest criticism of Sean, who is my favorite movie Bond is that he plays Bond like Superman. If invincible Sean could have played being shattered by Tracy's death it would have been phenomenal. If he'd done the next movie where he seeks revenge on Blofeld, the audience would still be lined up at the theatres to see it. Now I know this will renew a debate over whether Sean had the depth at that stage in his career or any stage to play this dramatic moment. I believe if he'd wished to and been allowed to he could have. It's not clear if he'd remained Bond that the producers would have let him take the character in this darker direction.

Similarly, Daniel Craig, who I think is the most skilled actor to play the role could have done it and I'd still like to see him in a faithful version of OHMSS followed by a faithful YOLT. If there's an actor who played Bond who I'm confident had the chops to go from confident but world weary Bond to falling in love to looking forward to a new life to being shattered and doing it in convincing and moving fashion its Craig.

I think Dalton is a good actor but his Bond was so dark and brooding that I'm not sure if he'd show that kind of contrast. Of course, the explanation may be that Dalton was playing a post OHMSS Bond who is more dark and brooding. I like Dalton a great deal and believe him to have been the prisoner of mediocre scripts. I suspect he would have been good in OHMSS and it's interesting to think of him doing Sir Hillary Bray (actually it's really interesting to think of Sean or Craig doing Sir Hillary).

I have no idea how Brosnan would have been. I like him as an actor, but not as Bond. Perhaps if allowed to stretch the boundaries of the role he would have been brilliant. My suspicion is he would have been disapointing, but I could be off on this.

I can't see Moore playing the scene any more than I could see Adam West or Mike Myers doing it. I'm not aware of Moore ever playing a role of serious dramatic complexity and my suspicion is that if he'd made OHMSS it would have been considered the worst Bond movie either because they joked it up or because he couldn't hit any of the dramatic moments required.

Now, I await the slings and arrows of the Roger and Brosnan fans as well as those committed folks who will maintain Connery would have done a terrible job.

[Head of S]

I can't see Moore playing the scene any more than I could see Adam West or Mike Myers doing it. I'm not aware of Moore ever playing a role of serious dramatic complexity and my suspicion is that if he'd made OHMSS it would have been considered the worst Bond movie either because they joked it up or because he couldn't hit any of the dramatic moments required.

Now, I await the slings and arrows of the Roger and Brosnan fans as well as those committed folks who will maintain Connery would have done a terrible job.

Have you seen Shout At The Devil (d. Peter Hunt)? Roger Moore's performance, in both this, and Gold (d. Peter Hunt), perhaps indicates how his Bond could have been had Peter Hunt directed him. Two scenes from Shout At The Devil in particular that I would draw your attention to: the burial of Sebastian's baby boy (who was ripped from his mother's arms and butchered), and the final scene where he shoots Fleischer in cold blood.

I have always thought that Roger's performance as Bond was driven more by the style of scripts and directorial choices (and mass audience demand - don't forget how enormously successful his Bond movies were) than by any (perceived) lack of acting talent.

Could Roger Moore have played Bond in OHMSS and in particular the scene where Tracy is murdered?

Absolutely!

Edited by Head of S, 15 June 2007 - 06:31 PM.

[MHazard]

Well, I've never seen either film though I would suppose that his performances in two movies directed by Peter Hunt might well be a good guide to how he would have handled this task under the same director. Having said all that, it's still hard for me to imagine based on any Bond movie he ever made that all of a sudden Moore could turn the character into someone resembling Fleming's Bond and hit any dramatic high notes. Is there anyone else out there who's seen those movies and do you agree with Head of S?

[Head of S]

Well, I've never seen either film though I would suppose that his performances in two movies directed by Peter Hunt might well be a good guide to how he would have handled this task under the same director. Having said all that, it's still hard for me to imagine based on any Bond movie he ever made that all of a sudden Moore could turn the character into someone resembling Fleming's Bond and hit any dramatic high notes. Is there anyone else out there who's seen those movies and do you agree with Head of S?

It's a shame you haven't seen these films. Have you seen The Man Who Haunted Himself (d. Basil Dearden), The Wild Geese (d. Andrew V McLaglen), North Sea Hijack [aka ffolkes](d. Andrew V McLaglen) or The Naked Face (d. Bryan Forbes)?

I would be interested if at some point you get to see Shout At The Devil and any other titles I've mentioned that you may not have seen to see if your opinion on Moore would change. At the very least I think you would enjoy these movies.

Best wishes,

Head of S

Edited by Head of S, 15 June 2007 - 07:00 PM.

[MHazard]

Well, now I'm intrigued and I'll make a point of checking out at least some of these films. If Moore really had the dramatic range you're suggesting than I may conclude it was a damn shame they didn't let him use it in the Bond films. Anyway, now I'm curious to find out. A well thought out plan Head of S, almost as good as bankrupting LeChiffre at Baccarat.

[LadySylvia]

I still think that he could of given a dark, angry look to the windscreen.

I think that would have been unecessary. I feel that the ending in the final cut was perfect. In fact, I found it so emotionally effective that I had ended up crying for a few minutes when I first saw OHMSS.

Daniel Craig did cry over Vesper's death in CASINO ROYALE. At first, it seemed as if he was trying to control his grief, but he did eventually give in to it. His anger didn't seem to come out until his conversation with M.


I also saw SHOUT AT THE DEVIL. And I also believe that Roger Moore could have portrayed Bond's grief in OHMSS.

Edited by LadySylvia, 15 June 2007 - 07:16 PM.

[shady ginzo]

I have absolutly no criticisms of the conclusion of the film, on the whole George did what he could with the way the character was written in that film (it was a little too much of a cliche in the first half of the film, but the final scene is played perfectly, and, as others have said, spot on to what fleming wrote. perhaps a "dark angry look" would have been a little more hollywood, but certainly not the way to go with bond. Like Craig, his portrayal was compelling, so I don't care if he's not always the winning man.

Edited by shady ginzo, 15 June 2007 - 07:26 PM.

[MarcAngeDraco]

Lazenby played it dead on to what Fleming wrote, so was therefore exactly how Bond would have reacted.

While the film scene has the same basic dialogue as the book, it somehow never affects me the same way. I'd have to say that Lazenby tried to play it the same as the book, but it just doesn't work as well. The basics are there, but I just don't feel it.

[Santa]

I have to admit, I just don't feel it either. It's nothing to do with how GL does it and only partly to do with having read the book before seeing the film, and therefore knowing what was going to happen, it's just me.

[Sbott]

For me this ending captured the Bond character perfectly and is one of cinema's, not just the Bond films, most memorable and moving endings ever. GL was a limited actor but performed the scene at the end perfectly.
I've never understood how many critics thought that Brosnans weeping (or whatever emotion he was trying to portray) over Paris Carver's death in TND was more powerful and unique to the Bond films

I agree that a better followup to OHMSS was needed at the time. The suggestion that Daniel Craig should do it now is a risky one. He has the skills and has attracted a large number of new fans so perhaps the time is right to revisit some of the earlier more pivotal Fleming works.

[MHazard]

Daniel Craig is James Bond in "Dr. Shatterhand"

[David Schofield]

I can't see Moore playing the scene any more than I could see Adam West or Mike Myers doing it. I'm not aware of Moore ever playing a role of serious dramatic complexity and my suspicion is that if he'd made OHMSS it would have been considered the worst Bond movie either because they joked it up or because he couldn't hit any of the dramatic moments required.

Now, I await the slings and arrows of the Roger and Brosnan fans as well as those committed folks who will maintain Connery would have done a terrible job.

Have you seen Shout At The Devil (d. Peter Hunt)? Roger Moore's performance, in both this, and Gold (d. Peter Hunt), perhaps indicates how his Bond could have been had Peter Hunt directed him. Two scenes from Shout At The Devil in particular that I would draw your attention to: the burial of Sebastian's baby boy (who was ripped from his mother's arms and butchered), and the final scene where he shoots Fleischer in cold blood.

I have always thought that Roger's performance as Bond was driven more by the style of scripts and directorial choices (and mass audience demand - don't forget how enormously successful his Bond movies were) than by any (perceived) lack of acting talent.

Could Roger Moore have played Bond in OHMSS and in particular the scene where Tracy is murdered?

Absolutely!

I have seen thse films and Rog is very good in the scenes you quote. IMO, he is even better in The Man Who Haunted Himself" handling distraught, devastated grief.

BUT this was Rog in roles he respected. Many times in interviews, Rog has indicated his belief that Bond cannot be played seriously and has to be, almost, played for laughs. Rog does not believe in the realsim as Bond, whereas clearly he does as Sebastian Oldsmith, Harold Pelham and many other characters he has played.

But I do not think he would have accepted superman, lighthearted Bond being emotionally crippled at the end of OHMSS. Rog-Bond was cartoon over-dressed English sophisticate, with a permanent one-liner, a gadget to get him out of any trouble and a physical appearance which attracted women of all ages, colours and creeds.

Sadly, Rog had not respect for the raw, real emotion of Fleming Bond. He could not have done OHMSS as written.

[Sbott]

Sadly, Rog had not respect for the raw, real emotion of Fleming Bond. He could not have done OHMSS as written.

I completely agree Roger couldn't have done this scene. Probably only Dalton and Craig, in addition to George, could have pulled this off with believable style.

Perhaps this tells us more about the skills of Lazenby, which have never been realised.

[MHazard]

Sadly, Rog had not respect for the raw, real emotion of Fleming Bond. He could not have done OHMSS as written.

I completely agree Roger couldn't have done this scene. Probably only Dalton and Craig, in addition to George, could have pulled this off with believable style.

Perhaps this tells us more about the skills of Lazenby, which have never been realised.

Sean could of done it if he'd been permitted and possibly forced to.

[triviachamp]

Sean could of done it if he'd been permitted and possibly forced to.

Since he didn't want to do it he couldn't be "permitted" to do it and since he was not under contract he couldn't "forced to." I also doubt he would have liked being forced to shoot for nine months.

[MHazard]

Sean could of done it if he'd been permitted and possibly forced to.

Since he didn't want to do it he couldn't be "permitted" to do it and since he was not under contract he couldn't "forced to." I also doubt he would have liked being forced to shoot for nine months.

By permitted, I meant that its not clear if the producers would have decided upon the more serious approach for OHMSS is Sean was still playing Bond. By forced to, I meant that I have no idea if Sean would have wanted to play that type of serious script. (If anyone has any actual info on these questions, I'd be fascinated). The point of my post was that I believe Connery had the talent and ability to play OHMSS the way the script was ultimately filmed and do a fantastic job. There is, of course, no way to know because he didn't. Just as there's no way to know if any of the other actors could have because they didn't. One can have fun speculating though, which is what I was doing.

[LadySylvia]

Sadly, Rog had not respect for the raw, real emotion of Fleming Bond. He could not have done OHMSS as written.

If one takes a real, close look at the actors who have played Bond, not one of them has ever really portrayed the character written by Fleming. And perhaps that is a good thing.

[hugo]

Sadly, Rog had not respect for the raw, real emotion of Fleming Bond. He could not have done OHMSS as written.

If one takes a real, close look at the actors who have played Bond, not one of them has ever really portrayed the character written by Fleming. And perhaps that is a good thing.

I disagree. Daniel Craig comes close, as did Timothy Dalton. TD unfortunately lacked the charisma, had no screen presence and was simply not credible.

[LadySylvia]

Sadly, Rog had not respect for the raw, real emotion of Fleming Bond. He could not have done OHMSS as written.

If one takes a real, close look at the actors who have played Bond, not one of them has ever really portrayed the character written by Fleming. And perhaps that is a good thing.

I disagree. Daniel Craig comes close, as did Timothy Dalton. TD unfortunately lacked the charisma, had no screen presence and was simply not credible.

TD has plenty of screen chemistry and charisma. Which is why he has his legion of fans.

Trust me when I say that not one Bond actor has truly captured Fleming's Bond. And believe me that is a good thing. Both Craig and Dalton managed to capture literary Bond's grittiness and angst. But that's it.

[Santa]

Oh. Ian Fleming seemed to think Sean Connery did a pretty good job of it.

[LadySylvia]

Oh. Ian Fleming seemed to think Sean Connery did a pretty good job of it.

How nice for Fleming.

Yes, Sean Connery did a pretty good job of playing James Bond. Fortunately for Connery, his Bond did not resemble the literary Bond that much. In fact, I think that all six actors are lucky that none of them accurately resembled the literary Bond.

Edited by LadySylvia, 20 June 2007 - 05:44 PM.

[Santa]

Oh. Ian Fleming seemed to think Sean Connery did a pretty good job of it.

How nice for Fleming.

Well, yes it is really. He wrote the character, in case you hadn't noticed, so I think he'd have a fairly good idea whether or not Sean Connery made a good job of portraying that character.

[lois lane]

Oh. Ian Fleming seemed to think Sean Connery did a pretty good job of it.

Of course you are right, I read IF liked Sean's performance immensely. In my personal view, I think DC comes closest, but that doesn't mean to say that everyone should think that way. I think it is fair to say that Sean Connery is no.1 in most peoples books, as for me, he is number 2.

[Santa]

Oh. Ian Fleming seemed to think Sean Connery did a pretty good job of it.

Of course you are right, I read IF liked Sean's performance immensely. In my personal view, I think DC comes closest, but that doesn't mean to say that everyone should think that way. I think it is fair to say that Sean Connery is no.1 in most peoples books, as for me, he is number 2.

Not saying I agree with it, or that I disagree for that matter. Hard to argue with the man who wrote it though, but there's always one who will try...