144 replies to this topic

[Joyce Carrington]

Now, that was something else entirely.

Ahem.

[TortillaFactory]

/TF contemplates la petite mort joke

[Robert Watts]

Now, that was something else entirely.

Ahem.

Dreaming of killing Roger Moore? And creating the opposite with Brosnan... sounds worse!

(I stumble along a lot of threads with interesting posts from Ms. Carrington, MI6 has a hazardous search option and sometimes you give up and click a random thread)

What was the picture Joyce? What was the picture?

[TortillaFactory]

Now, now; don't hassle the poor girl.

You just write about kinky librarians.

You don't know the HALF of it. You should see the little beauty I tapped out over the weekend. The working title "Ties that Bind" should clue you in. (It's actually rather tame, I think. No worse, really, than Tania demanding to be beaten if she eats too much in FRWL.)

And on that kinky note -

Pour Qui
Theme: We used to be friends, a long time ago
Rating: PG-13 for language
Blurb: For some reason, as I write this, all I can picture is you laughing.

[Joyce Carrington]

Wow... impressive. Didn't see that coming at all.

As for the picture, good God, Robert, it was just one of those avatars... was it Liz Hurley? Something like that.

(Now give TF her thread back )

[TortillaFactory]

Wow... impressive. Didn't see that coming at all.

Glad you didn't - it occured to me, midway through writing it, that I could slant it so that the POV would be ambiguous until the end. Hence the title...

Oh, I don't mind thread-hijacking, as long as it's returned dry-cleaned and in good working order.

[TortillaFactory]

Christ. I completely forgot about this until 11:36 - here is the result. It ain't pretty.

sex, lies, and the truth
Theme: Meaningful violence
Rating: R for adult themes
Blurb: Sadism means never having to say you're sorry.

[Robert Watts]

It is interesting, took me a while to get an idea of where you were going with it but now I know.

...interesting.

[TortillaFactory]

Thank you, I think.

Vulgarity is what you get from me when I have about twenty minutes to pound out something with no prior planning whatsoever; it's all an elaborate smoke-and-mirrors scheme to keep you from noticing that I don't have a clue what's going on.

[TortillaFactory]

Only Natural
Theme: The apple does fall far from the tree
Rating: PG-13
Summary: Alone again, naturally.

[Joyce Carrington]

Very nice. (I guessed correctly, too - which girl it was. )

[TortillaFactory]

Yeah, it wasn't meant to be difficult.

The weird thing is, I don't even like Elektra. But I couldn't think of anyone to whom the saying about apples and trees would apply.

[TortillaFactory]

Tous les Chats
Theme: When are you going to love you as much as I do?
Rating: PG
Blurb: All cats are grey in the dark.

The feverish ramblings of a very ill person. I can barely get out of bed, yet I still rally enough energy to do this. I rock.

[Robert Watts]

If you were sick when you wrote that I'm Tzar Demetrivich Nickolai Romanov.

[Joyce Carrington]

Good day, Tzar Demetrivich Nickolai Romanov.

Nice work, TF - but get yourself some rest, eh?

[Robert Watts]

Meh!

It isn't winter in Russia so I'll live with it.

[TortillaFactory]

Wow, I never knew we had royalty in our midst!

Yesterday I was actually quite sick, to the point where I could hardly stop shaking to type. Don't worry, Joyce, I'm getting plenty of rest - I managed to wrangle today and tomorrow off work, because I would have been completely useless there.

Odd tidbit: the theme for my birthday, the 16th, is "I will show you fear in a handfull of dust," my favourite line from T.S. Elliot' "The Wasteland." Strange.

[Joyce Carrington]

Don't worry, Joyce, I'm getting plenty of rest - I managed to wrangle today and tomorrow off work, because I would have been completely useless there.

Good.

Odd tidbit: the theme for my birthday, the 16th, is "I will show you fear in a handfull of dust," my favourite line from T.S. Elliot' "The Wasteland." Strange.

Ooh, it's almost your birthday! I'd send you a cool Bond Birthday card but I don't have your snail mail address.

[Lazenby880]

Only Natural
Theme: The apple does fall far from the tree
Rating: PG-13
Summary: Alone again, naturally.

Fun; for a moment I thought OO7 was going to enter the exciting world of necrophilia. Now that would make for something *different*. But how can you not like the delicious Elektra King, surely (by far) the best of the Brosnan Bond girls?

I do quite like the way you write, and the latest entry confirmed that. Fascinating really, as I have always thought your writing was very feminine (not necessarily a criticism, and please don't anyone give me a feminist handbagging as I am not suggesting all women write in such a way). Thus, your perspective on Bond adds something a little different from the norm.

Keep it up, TF. I have a feeling your non-Bond works would be quite interesting too as you evidently have a gift for the word.

Edited by Lazenby880, 14 April 2006 - 09:46 PM.

[TortillaFactory]

Thank you, thank you, and again thank you.

Fun; for a moment I thought OO7 was going to enter the exciting world of necrophilia. Now that would make for something *different*.

No - even he's not that determined, despite his tendency towards postmortem fondling (most notable in TND I think).

But how can you not like the delicious Elektra King, surely (by far) the best of the Brosnan Bond girls?

I couldn't stand the way she was played. I just didn't buy her. At all. Can't models stick to modelling and leave acting to the actresses? That would be nice. Ah well.

I do quite like the way you write, and the latest entry confirmed that. Fascinating really, as I have always thought your writing was very feminine (not necessarily a criticism, and please don't anyone give me a feminist handbagging as I am not suggesting all women write in such a way).

Don't worry, I don't even have a handbag - but I am curious as to what you think is feminine about the way that I write.

[Lazenby880]

No - even he's not that determined, despite his tendency towards postmortem fondling (most notable in TND I think).

Ah yes, that would be in one of the films. Seriously, that would be a somewhat *daring* development you could put your name to, imagine the shock in your dear readers...

I couldn't stand the way she was played. I just didn't buy her. At all. Can't models stick to modelling and leave acting to the actresses? That would be nice. Ah well.

But Sophie Marceau *is* an actress: see here. 1995's BRAVEHEART may have been utterly risible in many, many ways, but Marceau's performance is (in my view) the stand-out feature of the movie. And she is rather tasty to boot.

Don't worry, I don't even have a handbag - but I am curious as to what you think is feminine about the way that I write.

This is just something I have observed when reading some of the pieces you have written in this LiveJournal project and BLIND MAN'S BLUFF. The way in which you convey, and the emphasis placed upon, the female perspective in your stories is an example; as well as your handling of emotion. Moreover, your rendering of Bond is distinctly feminine, a certain vulnerability and fragility permeates your writing (I should probably dig up a quotation to illuistrate my point).† Do not get me wrong; it is different, it is a style at which you are clearly proficient and I do like it. Makes for rather more distinctive writing, so please don't take it as a criticism (although, as you probably will not be too surprised to hear, I do not always agree with how you portray Bond).

Incidentally, I think you could do a great THE SPY WHO LOVED ME-esque story. Either way TF keep writing and fail not.

† I should make clear the distinction between feminine and female as I do not want to be misconstrued. I think writers of either sex can write in a 'rough and ready' masculine fashion, just as (one supposes) either sex can write in a more feminine style.

Edited by Lazenby880, 14 April 2006 - 10:23 PM.

[TortillaFactory]

[quote]Ah yes, that would be in one of the films. wink.gif Seriously, that would be a somewhat *daring* development you could put your name to, imagine the shock in your dear readers...
[/quote]

Oh, I've no doubt it could be done, and credibly, too (if not by me). I'm just not sure I want to go there - I scare myself enough already.

[quote]stare.gif But Sophie Marceau *is* an actress: see here. 1995's BRAVEHEART may have been utterly risible in many, many ways, but Marceau's performance is (in my view) the stand-out feature of the movie. And she is rather tasty to boot. tongue.gif[/quote]

It's all a matter of opinion, I suppose, and I'll just have to say that I really, really didn't like her. In anything. Ever. I don't find any of her performances credible in the least. IMHO Elektra had none of the depth that a character like that NEEDS to have. (This may have been the filmmakers' fault, okay. It wouldn't be the first time they'd done something similar, though I'm inclined to blame censorship for their butchering of Tracy.)

[quote]This is just something I have observed when reading some of the pieces you have written in this LiveJournal project and BLIND MAN'S BLUFF. The way in which you convey, and the emphasis placed upon, the female perspective in your stories is an example; as well as your handling of emotion. Moreover, your rendering of Bond is distinctly feminine, a certain vulnerability and fragility permeates your writing (I should probably dig up a quotation to illuistrate my point).

[TortillaFactory]

Just to spite my dear Laz880, here's something all about gore and fighting and boy things.

Crunch
Theme: Caught in a catch-22
Rating: PG-13
Blurb: The crunch of knuckles against bone, the zinc taste of blood in the mouth.

ETA: I made a post on El Jay all about how Bond's a big ol' softie. Supported entirely with quotes from Fleming. C'mon; you know you want to.

[Joyce Carrington]

Very masculine writing. I am now off to visit your LJ.

[Lazenby880]

Interesting; I honestly do wonder if you'd feel this way if you didn't know I'm a girl. (Not to discredit the gender gap, etc. - men and women are different, everybody knows it, except for that unfortunate 60s-70s generation that bought into the "gender is created by society" crap.) It's just that, to me, there is nothing distinctly "masculine" about, say, Fleming's prose. At all. In fact he has a delicate touch, and I was particularly impressed with TSWLM and how well he seemed to understand the mentality of a "bird with a wing down."

Well, I think I would feel the same way since, like I said, one need not be a member of the fairer sex to write like one. And I totally agree with you regarding Fleming's prose, I have often made the point about his writing style being flowery and purple. That was his gift, and it is his prose (as opposed to, let's say, his plots) that I particularly like. Yes he has a delicate touch to his writing, lyrical at times (especially demonstrated in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE), the sophistication of which is too often overlooked. You know TF, we probably agree far more on the literary Bond than our ostensible disagreements sometimes suggest.

"James Bond is a blunt instrument" blah blah blah, we all know the famous Fleming quote. Whether or not Fleming believed his own hype is unclear; what's clear to me is that it's completely wrong, unless of course by "blunt instrument" he meant "somewhat like a whining schoolgirl." From his finicky breakfast habits to his softheartedness with women, Bond is hardly the tough guy people think he is. Said it before, say it again: you don't have to be cold to be a killer, and Bond seems to be a particularly hot-blooded one. More reckless than ruthless, he charges around like a bull in a china shop, sweeping up damsels in distress as he goes. Would a cold-hearted psychopath decide to bring Honey Ryder to civilisation and pay to have her nose fixed? Risk his life to save Viv? Fail to shoot the girl!sniper? Use a soap with the word "fleur" in it? Eat quiche?

Again, I really do not have a particular problem with any of this. Bond in Fleming *is* emotional, sometimes to a very great degree (although I query whether that makes him more 'feminine' *as a character*). Of course, it does change depending on the novel/short story, and it is very difficult to speak of Bond in a generalised fashion as his character does vary quite significantly (but naturally) over the course of the events depicted by Fleming. Is he a psychopath? No. But then it has never been my contention that he is, and nor have I seen *any* serious assertion that he is either. He has a weakness for women, is a bit of a fusspot with regards to the finer things in life but will usually take the necessary action when required. A far more complex and conflicted character than is sometimes suggested, but again much is dependent upon the book from which one chooses to draw one's examples. Take CASINO ROYALE or MOONRAKER; he is a bit of a blank canvas in some respects. Then take later Fleming; Bond is still believably Bond, but the character is a blank canvas no more. Regardless, he was never a cold-blooded, hard-hearted, unfeeling chap - and I have never argued that he was (the point of my last fan fiction bit was to show a different character who had changed dramatically). That said, he can be a bastard, and much of the time he is not the sort of person with whom I would especially like to associate.

I'm not offended by your allegations of femininity so much as I am disconcerted that it's my interpretation of Bond who's seen as being outside the mainstream. He's a bastard too, you know, just in a more PMS-y kind of a way.

And here we part company. Our interpretations do differ somewhat, if only because I feel you put too much emphasis on his 'softness' and whatnot, and I probably think he is more 'bastard-y' than you (and certainly *not* in a PMS sort of a way). Are you outside of the mainstream? I do not know, but I hear it is a pretty fun place to be.

EDIT: I have just read your post on that other website in which you support your argument with quotations. What it illustrates is that our difference is generally one of emphasis and degree rather than two wholly discordant views on the character. Unless you think Bond is basically a female, we may even possibly agree more than disagree.

Regarding your latest entry, I liked it very much indeed. Short, muscular prose with plenty of impact; you vividly capture the scene. I disliked the repetition of 'sweet', a case of perhaps trying a little too hard. But that last line was fantastic. Very good work all round, and evidence you can write in a 'masculine' manner as well.

Edited by Lazenby880, 15 April 2006 - 11:37 PM.

[TortillaFactory]

Well, I think I would feel the same way since, like I said, one need not be a member of the fairer sex to write like one. wink.gif And I totally agree with you regarding Fleming's prose, I have often made the point about his writing style being flowery and purple. That was his gift, and it is his prose (as opposed to, let's say, his plots) that I particularly like. Yes he has a delicate touch to his writing, lyrical at times (especially demonstrated in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE), the sophistication of which is too often overlooked. You know TF, we probably agree far more on the literary Bond than our ostensible disagreements sometimes suggest.

Yes, yes, and yes. And here I start to wonder: where is it, exactly, that we part ways? I would be terribly interested to see specific examples of what you're talking about.

Neither of us thinks Bond is cold or ruthless, so why is it that your conception of Bond as the bastard differs from mine - and how? You admit he can be soft, softer than Liberace at the Playboy Mansion, so why doesn't my portrayal of his softness work for you? Too much? At the wrong times? The wrong type of softness? I'm curious because I never felt that I overstepped the line Fleming drew, so long ago. If I have, I want to know where and when. I want names, numbers! We have ways of making you talk!

/slap

Er, right.

I suppose in my experience, it's the bastards who are really soft inside. My view of Bond as a hard shell with a sweet nougaty center may be seen as feminist revisionism; I assure you it's not, and if anything it's a bit of personal bias. I am probably projecting my own vulnerability onto him, rather than consciously attempting to inject him with female characteristics. My explanations of his motives may, therefore, be more feminine than he (or Fleming) would have ever admitted to. I say "may" because I don't see where I've overstepped the line...I look to you to teach me.

I am glad you liked my little "Fight Club" Bond piece. I do enjoy writing masculine prose, it's just not my natural bent. The "sweet" thing was just a bit of postmodern emphasis which was purposely overdone, but probably does grate a little. I apologise.

[TortillaFactory]

Beep
Theme: Beep beep yeah!
Rating: PG
Blurb: The monologuing megalomaniacs, the clingy ex-lesbians, the henchmen who just won't die - these, I can handle.

A completely silly bit of film-based humour, in which Bond ponders something I've always wondered about.

[Joyce Carrington]

Very amusing! Thanks.

[Lazenby880]

Yes, yes, and yes. And here I start to wonder: where is it, exactly, that we part ways? I would be terribly interested to see specific examples of what you're talking about.

Neither of us thinks Bond is cold or ruthless, so why is it that your conception of Bond as the bastard differs from mine - and how? You admit he can be soft, softer than Liberace at the Playboy Mansion, so why doesn't my portrayal of his softness work for you? Too much? At the wrong times? The wrong type of softness? I'm curious because I never felt that I overstepped the line Fleming drew, so long ago. If I have, I want to know where and when. I want names, numbers! We have ways of making you talk!

Again, I do think this is a matter of degree and emphasis. Bond *can*, in my opinion, be ruthless, but by no means all of the time. As has been explored in greater depth by persons more erudite than myself, he has a weakness for women. I have recently finished re-reading DR NO, and this is perfectly evident in his feelings towards Honeychile. Moreover, no-one can deny that Bond's friendship with Quarrel is genuine, or that Bond is affected by Quarrel's death (so much for overt 'racism' in Fleming's novels). On the other hand, he does instruct Quarrel to get two entirely innocent men to act as decoys in Bond's car to see if No's men are really after him, full in the knowledge that these two men could be killed as a result; I am sure you will agree not a particularly nice thing to do. Very often the character that emerges is human; with emotions that cause him to act or react in a particular way. Where he is cold, such as pronouncing 'the bitch is dead' at the close of CASINO ROYALE, there is a *reason* for it. We agree that he is not the unfeeling efficient machine that many believe the literary James Bond is.

Perhaps using the word 'feminine' muddied the waters somewhat. One could make a case that Fleming's often wonderfully extravagant prose is more feminine than more modern thriller writers (some of whom are, frankly, pretty illiterate). What I meant more specifically, however, in using the word was in your approach to *character* and *theme* (as opposed to prose), and I should have made that clearer.

I say a difference of emphasis and degree because I think you do generally overstate the 'softness' of Bond as a character, and would point to your description of BLIND MAN'S BLUFF on your website: "Let me be straight up with you: this is a love story." I commend you for backing up your assertions by referring back to Fleming or quotations from his works, but the point is that most of the time love interests were only part of the story, not the central feature. It is difficult to go and trawl through your work and specify particular sentences and whatnot that exemplify what I am trying to get at here as it is a general feeling of how you handle your characters and their perspectives. Take BLIND MAN'S BLUFF, for instance. A lot of time is spent building up the relationship between Bond and Jessie where that is the *sole* area of focus, and her thoughts/emotional wranglings etc. take the central role to a significant extent in many scenes.

*Please* do not get me wrong, I like BLIND MAN'S BLUFF for the most part (it seems to get better as it progresses). You can clearly write very well, so in that respect you have certainly succeeded. I find the random quotations at the beginning of chapters a little indulgent, and you could lose them with no detrimental effect on your novel (or novelisation). Incidentally, what is with the le Carr

Edited by Lazenby880, 16 April 2006 - 07:35 PM.

[TortillaFactory]

/thinks

/watches Wallace and Gromit: A Close Shave

/thinks some more

Fair enough. I do see where you're coming from, and I agree that we really don't disagree as much as one might think.

"Whisper" is, of course, from a woman's point of view. I suppose you might say that all of my writing is inescapably so. Writing from inside Bond's head, I'm still a woman playing at being a man. I had hoped that was something I could (however briefly) overcome, for the sake of literature.

Granted, sometimes I play around with it for fun. One of my recent drabbles was meant to trick the reader into thinking it was from a Bond girl's point of view, when it was really just a drunk, depressed Bond rambling after Tracy's death.

I can come to no conclusion but what I already have; I'm not trying to feminise Bond, but I suppose I'm doing it inadvertently by making my own version of him.

I had feared that BMB's PR campaign would frighten some people. Fleming's books are plot-driven, and mine is - well, my plot IS my characters, mostly. It's Bond dropped into the middle of a world I've created specially to foil him, plus pretty much everything that I've ever thought was interesting or cool. Modern times because I'm lazy and don't want to research 50s and 60s stuff, and because Bond has never really been a man of his times. He never fit in terribly well and he still doesn't. He's a lone wolf, and I like him that way.

Which begs the question (sic), why the hell am I giving him a girl? Because it's an idea I had when I was about 13 and I'm just not giving up on it, dammit. Anyway it's not as if I'm forcing him to deal with some sickeningly perfect, Pollyanna-esque creation. If Jessica ever says "I have confidence in sunshine," and means it, you have my full permission to deck her one. I have gone to great lengths to make the story work, yet I'm still highly insecure about it, which is, I suppose, why I'm drilling you for your reasons.

Ultimately I understand where you're coming from. The feminine aura is a feeling you get, as one does when one reads things, and it's hard to explain why. I accept, understand, and ponder.

/ponders

ETA: I just noticed your usage of the phrase "feminine soapiness". Christ. You MUST explain that, so I can go kill myself.