55 replies to this topic

[zencat]

Originally posted by doublenoughtspy
I agree with you Zencat that picking out flaws is easy, and that a film must be judged on its merits, not just its flaws.

However, when the flaws are so bad that fans are up in arms, and the review in Variety says that the CGI work goes against everything the series has stood for, it demonstrates that the flaw is significant....

Computers have been used in Bond stunts since MWGG (car spiral jump planned on computer) - and I don't mind them being used to erase a wire holding a harness or something like that - but don't make the CGI the main part of the stunt - because as Variety said - that goes against everything the series has stood for.

Well said, doublenoughtspy. I agree the pure CGI stunt work goes against what the series is all about, but for some reason it just doesn't bend me out of shape. (And I thought the CGI work in the Anatova sequence was brilliant.) It's sort of like the Tarzan yell in Octopussy or the moments of broad humor in Moonraker. I just shrug them off and dig the rest of the movie. I also trust that Eon knows when they overstep -- whether it be with the humor, the "MTV editing" or CGI -- and will make adjustments the next time out. They seem to know what they

[Turn]

I agree with Zencat and in some ways with B5Erik2. I'll admit DAD had flaws and could have been better. But like Zencat, I also don't dwell on the small, silly things the series has hiccuped on over the years. If it was all bad, we wouldn't be talking about this series today.

I also have a film school background and it did make my tastes a little more discriminating in some cases. But I watch Bond films, or any film for that matter, on my own terms. I don't go in expecting Merchant-Ivory. I can watch 2001: A Space Odyssey and turn around and enjoy Old School or something.

The bottom line is getting my 2-DVD set Tuesday made me feel like a kid at Xmas time. And I didn't waste a second of it thinking about how flawed the CGI or ending on the plane were.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Turn
The bottom line is getting my 2-DVD set Tuesday made me feel like a kid at Xmas time. And I didn't waste a second of it thinking about how flawed the CGI or ending on the plane were.

And that really is the bottom line, isn't it?

[BondNumber7]

Originally posted by B5Erik2
No, but if you aren't willing to admit that it could have been better then you are fooling yourself.  (And I'm pretty sure you'd be willing to admit that TMWTGG could have been better....)

One thing I have learned while posting on internet message boards is there is no way to change anyones mind. I will say that the Friday the 13th series is deeply flawed and utter junk, but horror film fans will think otherwise and say they are flawless and great. Who is right? I think the Pink Panther was a great comedy with no flaws, but others think it is slow and dull. Who's right? Can anyone prove that DAD is a weak installment in the Bond series? Or can anyone prove it is one of the best pictures within the Bond family? The fact is that neither can be proven. It is a matter of opinion and nothing but.

Look, you made a really good point - DAD doesn't make you think.  TWINE did.

TWINE does make you think, but has it ever occured to you that action films should be mindless instead of thoughtful? Some people prefer action movies if they do not require one to think. If I want to think than I will watch an art house movie, but Bond, like any action series, only needs to be mindless silly fun. TWINE was too heavy on plot. With DAD all I need to do is sit and have a good time, but save my brain energy for school.

Now, being the age that I am, and expecting as much as I do from Bond movies based on the rich history that the series has, I don't want a "dumbed down" Bond film that relies on absurd action pieces that make it look like a second rate xXx clone.  I expect better than that.  I DO want to have to think about the movie - at least a little!

I think we have now found the person who will one day create a Bond series for intellectuals. This is going to be good. Roger Ebert said in his review of TSWLM that the less a Bond film relies on plot the better; and the more it is preposterous the better. Movies are not real and action sequences should never look real. The surfing down the glacier was great because it looked so unreal and when watching it I do not feel like I'm in reality. CGI is often a problem because it can make everything look real, but in DAD it works because the faker an affect is the better. Even the affects in YOLT work better for me than those in the Brosnan films. The rocket coming down into the volcano is more fun because it looks so ridiculous, and the more stupid a Bond movie is the better. TWINE is not stupid in any way shape or form and that is why it is less fun to watch than films like DAD or Moonraker. Seriousness or realism belong in Citizen Kane or the Godfather, but they have no place in the action film genre.

I NEVER said that if you liked or even loved DAD that you were dishonest.  What I implied was that if you weren't willing to admit that it could have been (even) better then you are either being dishonest or fooling yourself (or just don't aren't as discriminating).

I don't want it to be better. I just want it to be the ridiculous silly fun that it is.

I've taken film classes in college, including a screenwriting class, and I tend to be a little more demanding.  Considering that several of the Bond films have exceeded my expectations in the past I don't think that I'm being too hard on DAD (which, again, I would rate a 7 out of 10 overall).

I once got into an argument with someone on the IMDB boards who accused me of being an "art house critic wannabe," or "pretentious film student, " when I was saying that Citizen Kane and all of todays art house films are better than Hollywood blockbusters like LOTR. Well I once took a film class in college, but that was only to fill certain requirments. Actually, your the one that should have been in that argument, and you might be the "pretentious film student," not me. I don't think anyone can prove TWINE is superior to DAD, and nobody can prove their viewpoints and ideas are superior to others.

I don't think that there are many movies in the Bond series that couldn't have been even better than they were, but some sure couldn't have been much better.   DAD just had more room for improvement than it should have (IMO).  That bothers me - especially since it was supposed to be the "be all and end all" of Bond films to celebrate the 40th anniversary of Dr No.

The "be all and end all," mean nothing and is just a marketing gimmick in order to get people to see the picture. Advertisers and MGM always will say that the new Bond movie is "the biggest adventure of all." The "be all and end all," refers to the biggest special effects and action scenes of any Bond movie.

[Truman-Lodge]

I don't know where this "Bond movies shouldn't be thoughtful" garbage came from. There was a time when kitchiness wasn't the order of the day with Bond films.

Read the Fleming novels, specifically Casino Royale, From Russia with Love, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, and You Only Live Twice, and tell me Fleming didn't have something to say.

The perfect Bond adventure combines both action and substance.

[DanMan]

I agree with Jimmy Bond 100%. Why do us DAD-lovers have to admit anything? We loved the movie and we don't see flaws in it. You say we are fooling ourselves? Well, we might think that your fooling yourself for not liking the movie. And since we're playing the "Your Wrong Game", I'm gonna say that your wrong. DAD is awesome, and the car chase is of the best in Bond history.

[BondNumber7]

Originally posted by Truman-Lodge
I don't know where this "Bond movies shouldn't be thoughtful" garbage came from.  There was a time when kitchiness wasn't the order of the day with Bond films.

Read the Fleming novels, specifically Casino Royale, From Russia with Love, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, and You Only Live Twice, and tell me Fleming didn't have something to say.

The perfect Bond adventure combines both action and substance.

It's much more useful to have a Bond book with substance than a thoughtful Bond movie.

DANMAN has the best argument.

[JimmyBond]

I'm sorry BondNumber7, I just can't agree with what you've said. While I do like DAD, I don't expect every Bond film to be like it, in fact, I'd prefer Bond films to be more down to earth in the FRWL mold. I want to think, I want the film to challenge me every now and then.

The reason I do like DAD so much though, is because I expect the series to churn out a OTT silly film every now and then, I take each film in stride, and like them for what they are, and not what they are'nt. However, in my heart of hearts, I'd rather they tone down the silliness a bit and give us a gritty Bond film next time out.

[B5Erik2]

Wow! Jimmy and I are agreeing again! What's the world coming to?

Seriously, Bond films are NOT just action movies. They are THRILLERS with great action sequences. There is a bit of substance to ALL of the great Bond films, and a lot of style and class.

What scares me the most about DAD is that unlike after MR the producers are not saying that they are going to bring Bond back to Earth. Michael Wilson is saying that this is the template, that this is what they are going to try to TOP. I'd really hate to see Bond become as totally stupid as most Hollywood action movies (like xXx).

I don't want to see the "dumbing down" of Bond. Hell, there is a way to make a more intelligent Bond movie that could still have some unbelievable action sequences. You CAN have both a story driven movie AND an action movie all in one with Bond. Write an intelligent script with plausible, but HUGE action sequences (the car chase in TLD comes to mind as a HUGE action sequence that fits in with a more intelligent movie, not to mention the fantastic ending on the plane in the same film).

I'd take equal parts FRWL, FYEO, TLD, LTK, GE, TND, and DAD. A smart script with great action and genuine suspense. That would work, and would make just about every Bond fan happy.

DAD in and of itself isn't a problem. If they try to match or top it, that's a HUGE problem.

Ian Fleming's original Bond stories were espionage thrillers. That's the basis for all the films that followed. Get too far away from that basis and Bond is no longer really Bond.

[JimmyBond]

Originally posted by B5Erik2

DAD in and of itself isn't a problem.  If they try to match or top it, that's a HUGE problem.

I both agree with you here and disagree, odd eh?

The way I see, they can use DAD as the template and avoid some of the things that have turned off quite a bit of people: The CGI, too many set pieces too close together (the rocket sled and Car Chase spring to mind, it should have been one or the other) and a much more focused ending, which I still, don't have a problem with, but it was a bit chaotic, not as chaotic as say, TND ending though.

On the other hand, they could repeat the elements of DAD that people got turned off by ten-fold. More CGI stunts, more action in the ending, even more set pieces.

Knowing EON though, I seriously doubt they'd do the latter. They very much have a ear to the ground when it concerns the fans, they are'nt blind to the criticism, they take it all in stride.

[B5Erik2]

I hope you're right.

DAD just came out of the blue, and style wise it really turned me off. Well, the last 45 or 50 minutes did. I love the first hour. (Even if the dialogue sucked really hard in spots - and the one liners were lame throughout.)

If they went with what worked in DAD, and fixed what didn't, then they could have one of the best Bond films ever.

We'll find out one way or the other in 2005.

[BondNumber7]

Originally posted by JimmyBond
I'm sorry BondNumber7, I just can't agree with what you've said. While I do like DAD, I don't expect every Bond film to be like it, in fact, I'd prefer Bond films to be more down to earth in the FRWL mold. I want to think, I want the film to challenge me every now and then.

I suppose "down to earth" can mean many things. I think Goldfinger has a better story than Live and Let Die, but I prefer the Moore film because the relationships between Bond/Solitaire or Solitaire/Kananga are more interesting than lets say Bond/Pussy Galore. On the level of characters, LALD is more down to Earth than Goldfinger and the relationships in the Connery film seem to be played just for laughs. I like the seriousness between Solitaire and Kananga much more than the silly talk competition between Bond and Pussy Galore. On the other hand, a more down to Earth Bond movie can also mean a beleivable story as opposed to an unbelievable one. From Russia With Love and Thunderball have stories that we can actually believe could happen, but You Only Live Twice and Moonraker are outragous. When you say "down to Earth" what do you want to see that you can believe? A down to Earth story? Down to Earth characters? Or both? If DAD is too ridiculous, than it's not a problem for me since it's nothing new. YOLT and DAF are silly, and since the beginning of the series they have gone back and forth between the unbelievable(YOLT or DAD), and the more down to Earth films(FYEO or TWINE). I'm just trying to say that DAD's sillyness is nothing new to the Bond series and we will indeed see another WINE where both action and story get equal attention. For me, DAD was more laid back than TWINE and was more easily enjoyable because the dreariness and somber feel of TWINE is not there.

[Truman-Lodge]

Originally posted by BondNumber7
It's much more useful to have a Bond book with substance than a thoughtful Bond movie.

It's much more useful to have both. Besides, Fleming is dead, in case you've forgotten.

DANMAN has the best argument.

It's an opinion, actually.

Geez, people. You act as though thinking is some sort of poison.

[BondNumber7]

Originally posted by Truman-Lodge


It's much more useful to have both.  Besides, Fleming is dead, in case you've forgotten.



It's an opinion, actually.

Geez, people.  You act as though thinking is some sort of poison.

There are other Bond books being written today and many authors that came after Fleming, in case you've forgotten.

[Jamie007]

I just watched the DVD today and actually found that I really liked the movie a lot more then when I first saw it at the theatre.
The difference is when I first saw it, I was judging it. And so I really noticed things like the CGI (Which I dont really like in any film, especially a Bond film), Jinx in general and some of the bad dialogue and they really got to me.
However watching it the second time, when I waswatching for pleasure rather then trying to find every little flaw, and just going along for the ride, I surprised myself and really liked it, it is now one of my favorite Bond films. Sure, its not without its flaws, it it has a lot of great stuff that more then maked up for them.

[Truman-Lodge]

Originally posted by BondNumber7


There are other Bond books being written today and many authors that came after Fleming, in case you've forgotten.

Right. And they're just as good.

[JimmyBond]

I'd argue that Gardner's books are just as good as Fleming's. While Benson's books rely too much on the films for their outlines, they are still a entertaining read.

[Jazzy Bond]

I seem to find myself agreeing with zencat on alot of subjects and this is one of them. Bond movies are for escapism, for enjoying the revelry of the series and getting a kick out of the experience. DAD does that for me. Do i want a DAD everytime out now on, no! I don't think EON would give us a cookie cutter DAD for the next 4-5 movies anyway. They cherish the series! But DAD was a fun movie, I can't say the previous 5 or 6 entries were very fun. Were they good entries? yes! but not a fun ride like DAD. DAD had a TSWLM feel. Bigger, better and beyond! Now onto the CGI we are talking about alot on this thread! Did i like it? No not really but I'm talking about the parasailing only. I loved the plane falling apart at the end, the helicoptor even the Jinx backdive. Thyese don't bother me but the parasailing wasn't any worse than the Matrix reloaded Agent Smith fight or Spiderman or Harry Potter so that's a plus I guess. But what bothered me most was the scene's need anyway! But you know what the whole scene is 45 seconds of a 2 hr. 12 min. movie so who really care!!! Plus when i saw it at the theater (4 times) that scene always got an applaud or laugh, not a, how cheesy laugh, but a oh Bond is so cool kind of laugh! Anyway, speaking of using real people to do the stunts instead of CGI, let me say this and don't think I am for alot of CGI, it just has it's points and places of use, but the real stunts have in the past been so obviously not the actor that those scenes bother me as much as the parasailing. It's like, does the directors think we don't see that it is not the actor? Ex. Xenia sliding down the helicoptor cord in GE ( that one really fires me up, it's a dude could you have not used a female stuntperson?) also the Jaws skydiving in MR, that one really sucks the dude is like half the size of the actor they could have got a bulky stuntperson at least! these are just a few I won't go into the obviously fake that played Roger Moore in his later movies! But to get back to the main point I loved DAD because of it's celebration of a great series but let's shake up the formula a little more on the next one and keep these critics guessing about our beloved spy!

[B5Erik2]

If you want escapism and a fantastic ride go for TND. THAT had all the cool Bond stuff, and it was much more of a TSWLM type movie that DAD was. DAD was more like MR & DAF rolled into one than TSWLM.

TND had what may be the coolest car chase in the series, and had some absolutely fabulous action sequences and stunts - including the very real motorcyle jump over the helicopter (CGI done the right way - they did the jump for real, and added in the helicopter blades with the computer). Bond was at his coolest and most suave in TND, so fans of "escapist Bond" should absolutely love that one - I know I do.

That's the way I want the OTT Bond done - rooted in reality, but done on a bigger scale.

DAD was too close to MR and DAF in style in the second half, after a very cool first half, so for me that was a big disappointment.

And the ending of a film is more important than the beginning.

[JimmyBond]

I dont know, I actually hated TND the first time I saw it. When I think of Bond, I think of someone who uses his wits to get out of a harry situation. Not someone who blasts his way out with a machine gun in one hand and a PPK in the other. Plus I felt Brosnan looked bored to tears doing most of the stuff he did in TND, which it turns out he was, according to interviews and such.

It also has one of the worst finales in the series, theres no style or class to it, just Bond shooting his guns at whoever he sees. I have grown fond of it over the years though, I think it's better than TWINE though.

[Jazzy Bond]

Good point, I love TND as well as DAD! i love all the Brosnan Bond movies so far. I still think he has his best one to come though! TND was great but as Jimmybond said it did have OTT gunplay, but I love the ending with Stamper and Bond saving Wai Lin that to me had the best finish of any of the Brosnan bonds except, gasp, choke, DAD! I loved the plane scenes I really, really don't see what the problem with the finale is! I think it's great maybe yo can shed some of your pessimistic light on it for me guys but a) Bond and Graves duking it out while the two hot girls are going after each other was great IMO the helicoptor freefall had suspense and humor even though you knew the outcome, plus the embedded cars was fantastic and had a true Bond feel c) the Moneypenney scenes got the biggest laugh from the crowds when I went and I had a friend who said he scene was classic d) Then the panoramic shots of Japan or wherever with Bond and Jinx was a great closer! Don't see alot of fault, maybe if I really "looked" into my innerself and delved hard I could try to come up with something negative but why? Life is too short to look too deep trying to find a flaw! Go with the flow, BTW, I stick by my view on DAD being big like TSWLM, Why? It had a scope and scale about it that had been lacking in the previous entires, like TSWLM had with TMWTGG, LALD and DAF coming before it. So both movies stand out as having that WOW factor. Plus we got great henchmen introduced to the fans, JAWS and Zao. Yes it had a MR feel too but alot of Moonraker i like except when they got to Brazil and outerspace the first 45 min. to an hour of MR was pretty damn good. But I digress, I loved DAD I saw it four times in the theater as compared to twice for GE, TND and TWINE. So i guess that's the bottom line to me. If I was just putting on a front I wouldn't put my hard earned money down three more times after the initial viewing. It was fun, like TSWLM and MR. It was an experience not a mini drama like TWINE which I love as well. I like how each of the Brosnan movies has it's own director and it's own feel. Thus Eon avoids having a cookie cutter entry.

[B5Erik2]

I like TND a lot better than DAD because while the last hour IS OTT, it is all rooted firmly in reality. It LOOKS real, and the technology is either real or VERY plausible. My suspension of disbelief is not broken, whereas with DAD the suspension of disbelief is not only broken, it is shattered. It's like watching a video game rather than a movie.

TND is the kind of OTT Bond that I like - and it is a LOT like TSWLM, significantly more than DAD is.

[JimmyBond]

TND is the kind of Bond film I don't want them to replicate in the future. If I want some action hero running around dodging bullets, I'll watch Bad Boys, or Lethal Weapon. When I watch a Bond film, I want Bond to be stylish and cool, while using his wits to get out of a situation. And that Bond is present all through DAD, thats the kind of Bond I want.

[B5Erik2]

Come on - TND was very stylish. Remote controlled car, motorcylce jump over the helicopter, the locations, the Carver press conference/party, the stealth boat, the satellite manipulation of naval navigation - this is all stuff you will ONLY find in a Bond film.

I haven't seen a Hollywood action film with that much style and sophistication EVER. And the execution of the gun battles in the last half was done VERY well - again, better than most Hollywood action films.

I wouldn't want every Bond film to be like that, but once in a while - hell, TSWLM and YOLT sure ended up with a lot more gunplay than TND did.

DAD had a very UNREALISTIC OTT ending, which was a shame since the movie was fairly realistic until Iceland. You can have big over the top settings and technological devices - just base them in reality and make them plausible.

A helicopter would not fall like that, for instance, it would be tumbling and would NEVER start during free fall.

Starting it while still inside the plane and backing it out would have been a much more Bond-ian way to do it (just imagine that with the James Bond theme playing!) AND it would have been much more realistic. If I can think of that, why couldn't they have?

[israeljamesbond]

Okay.. I wont read all that said up there.. but I really don't know why the heck GoldenEye is considered such a great Bond movie. the music is awful.. the sound is very bad compared to Tomorrow Never Dies, TWINE and DAD. The movie looks OLD, VERY OLD. The action is not that great.. and like that review says the tank was the only good action in it.. and the music didnt help it at all. The best Brosnan movie would be definitely Tomorrow Never Dies. It was great... Then DAD and then TWINE. Now in my Bond list movies my number 1 is TND. GoldenEye is around #11, DAD is #2, and the least I like is the one with Gaorge Lazenby, which was the 5th I believe but I cant remember the name. Bond wearing a skirt-like thing was very bad.. and the ude was also weird-looking, probably the wost looking Bond lol.

[Truman-Lodge]

Originally posted by israeljamesbond
Okay.. I wont read all that said up there.. but I really don't know why the heck GoldenEye is considered such a great Bond movie. the music is awful.. the sound is very bad compared to Tomorrow Never Dies, TWINE and DAD. The movie looks OLD, VERY OLD. The action is not that great.. and like that review says the tank was the only good action in it.. and the music didnt help it at all.

It's called characterization, plot development, originality, and style.

the least I like is the one with Gaorge Lazenby

which was the 5th I believe but I cant remember the name.

Bond wearing a skirt-like thing was very bad.. and the ude was also weird-looking, probably the wost looking Bond lol.