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Another honest review of DAD...


55 replies to this topic

#1 B5Erik2

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 04:37 PM

from DVD Talk

007 has now been on-screen for 40 years, going on 20 adventures. Over the years, special effects have gotten consistently more seamless, action scenes are always trying to top the latest one and movies in general have become a bigger business. This continues to be an issue lately, as franchises like "Star Trek" and Bond continue to face newer, sleeker competition. Aside from "XXX", which most have talked about as a new "Bond"-ian series, other films such as "The Bourne Identity" and maybe "Spy Game" have done Bond better lately.

"Die Another Day" is really just another Bond film - no more, maybe a bit less. The action is a cut above the last couple of pictures, the story is sufficently entertaining, but getting down to the bare basics, there's really nothing out of the double-0-ordinary for a Bond movie here. The picture opens with Bond surfing into Korea to do a diamonds-for-arms deal which goes sour when the bad guys in question find out that Bond's....well, Bond. He's captured, leading to fourteen months in a prison before being transfered out in a trade. His superiors are displeased, believing that Bond gave up secrets while in prison.

Displeased with possible suspension, Bond escapes, heading to both Cuba and Iceland in an attempt to catch Gustav Graves (Toby Stephens), the lead in a new weapons program. There's also an American agent called Jinx (Berry) and a North Korean agent named Zao (Rick Yune), who Bond was traded for to be released. Michael Madsen even shows up as a US agent, and Rosamund Pike shows up as a mysterious fellow MI6 agent.

Director Lee Tamahori takes over as a Bond director this time around and the results are simply okay. The movie starts off fairly well, with a nicely done action sequence, but the story by Neal Purvis and Robert Wade is awfully bland, making all the exposition mid-movie rather uncompelling. There's also a few noticably ripe pieces of dialogue. The action-heavy last quarter of the picture becomes ridiculous, and although the scenes are fairly good in theory, the effects are surprisingly mediocre (there's a surfing sequence late in the film that looks particularly bad, almost as if it was a few stages away from completion) for such a major production. Berry's light performance also seemed out-of-place in a film that seemed to lack the usual 007 humor. As for the villians, Yune makes a far better one than Graves, as Stephens' performance really wasn't at all intimidating. Sean Bean's villian in "Goldeneye" remains the best villian out of the Brosnan pictures (and, I think, the best of the Brosnan Bond films, as well.)

"Die Another Day" has moments, but it doesn't succeed in its attempt to be a little bit darker than the usual Bond fare and, as a result, the picture lacks the spirit and humor that these films occasionally weave in so well. I wonder about the choices of director for these films lately...while directors like Lee Tamahori ("Once Were Warriors" and Anthony Hopkins/Alec Baldwin picture "The Edge") and Michael Apted (the "7-up" series, the brilliant "Enigma") are talented filmmakers, they have never handled a movie of this size, nor have either really done action previously. Where's Tony or Ridley Scott when you need them?

Overall, "Die Another Day" certainly started off well, but it falls apart in the second half as it gets continually more ridiculous. Although absurdity in the action is certainly to be expected from a Bond film, the best Bond sequences in recent years (the tank chase in "Goldeneye", which was perfectly just over-the-top, with a few tidbits that showed the scene not taking itself entirely seriously) are at least somewhat grounded in reality and, while effects-driven, are largely built on practical effects and not computer-generated ones. Bond needs a stronger director, more experienced with action for the next one. Director Martin Campbell might be a good choice to return as director, as Campbell's "Goldeneye" offered the right balance of all of the Bond elements. Here's hoping that next one - whoever helms it - will be a lot better.



The reviewer goes on to review the DVD's features and picture/sound quality (picture - ok, sound - good), and summarizes that DAD is bigger, but not better than the recent Bond movies.

I couldn't agree more.

#2 Doubleshot

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 04:45 PM

Ah, an honest review! How fresh! I guess anyone who gave it a good review was lying through their teeth.. on purpose, no less.

#3 zencat

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 04:56 PM

So my good review here on CBn is dishonest? This is all a little offensive.

#4 JimmyBond

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 05:39 PM

We get it! You thought DAD fell apart as a film, thats fine, you're entitled to that opinion. There are those of us who liked it, now get off your soap box and let us have our opinions.

#5 ChandlerBing

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 05:46 PM

I think I am going to go home now and check out the DVD. I have a couple of hours free.

#6 B5Erik2

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 07:17 AM

Originally posted by JimmyBond
We get it! You thought DAD fell apart as a film, thats fine, you're entitled to that opinion. There are those of us who liked it, now get off your soap box and let us have our opinions.


Translation:
"Now get off your soap box and stop disagreeing with us."

So it's honest to say that DAD was the best thing since sliced bread, but you've got a problem with someone (and NOT me this time) pointing out some of the flaws in what could have otherwise been a classic Bond movie?

This was a fairly even handed review, by the way. I've seen MANY that ripped the movie to shreds.

This is a board that is supposed to cover ALL opinions on Bond - not just the "Pro-Bond," opinions.

I've said since day 1 that DAD has it's good points. I've even said I'd rate it a 7 out of 10. I've just been VERY adamant that the flaws were egregious but EASILY avoidable if more care had been taken, and I've said that DAD could have gone down as one of the 2 or 3 best Bond movies of all time, but intstead became just another flawed entry in the greatest movie series of all time.

(Stepping off of soap box - for a minute or three....:) )

#7 Blue Eyes

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 09:57 AM

Well you're allowed an opinion. But you can hardly wonder why people would have a go at you when you regard yours, and those who share it, as the ones with the 'honest' opinion.

#8 B5Erik2

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 03:05 PM

"Honest" was probably not the term that I was looking for - but is it honest to say that DAD was great from beginning to end? Not really - just about everyone can agree that DAD was flawed (particularly in the last hour or so).

I probably should have said "An INTERESTING review of DAD."

Kind of disappointing, though, how some people got so pissy about that.

#9 Blue Eyes

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 09:39 PM

It's neither dishonest nor honest. It's an opinion.

#10 JimmyBond

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 10:49 PM

Originally posted by B5Erik2
"Honest" was probably not the term that I was looking for - but is it honest to say that DAD was great from beginning to end?  


I think so, and when you start trying to tell people they are wrong (and don't deny, thats what you are doing, don't be surprised when people get pissy.

Kind of disappointing, though, how some people got so pissy about that.



#11 B5Erik2

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 06:57 AM

Come on, DAD was flawed, and anyone who is honest will admit that. DAD's flaws were glaring - even if you loved the movie you have to admit that it could have been better.

It's like being honest with yourself about your own flaws. Sometimes it's hard to admit when you're flawed, but admitting it is the only way to eliminate those flaws.

Seriously, I can't believe that anyone would make a big deal out of this topic title anyway. Don't take it so damned personally - it wasn't meant as anything other than, "Here's someone looking at the movie objectively, and the comments in this review are interesting."

Look, if you loved the movie that's great - but anyone who looks at DAD objectively will admit to the flaws. Hell, Thunderball is flawed (I hate the sped up shots), but I still love that movie - even though I will admit that it is flawed and could have been even better.

#12 JimmyBond

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 08:28 PM

Come on! That analogy about admitting you're own flaws is perhaps the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and it does not apply to DAD at all!

Come on, DAD was flawed, and anyone who is honest will admit that.


Bull****! I loved DAD, and I did'nt see any flaws, thats my opinion, MY OPINION. Just because it does not gel with your opinion does not make it dishonest.

As Blue Eyes said, it's an opinion. It has nothing to do with honesty.

#13 zencat

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 08:53 PM

Everything has flaws. It's all about what kind of person you are. Will you let flaws define the experience (in which case you become a film critic) or can you look past the flaws and just enjoy the experience (in which case you're a fan). No right, no wrong. But I'd rather be around the person who can articulate what they liked about something rather than how it "failed" them. Boo hoo. It

#14 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 09:18 PM

Zencat,
being a fan doesn't mean you can't be dissapointed by a Bond film or be critical; you're right about all Bond films(almost) have flaws. People who hate DAD, like me, are tired of what they think has been a mediocre era in the series(not PB's fault). That doesn't mean we're negative! We just expect more from these films.EON has the rights to the greatest character in all of fiction and can do great things with this property but instead we keep getting just ok to average to mediocre to awful Bond films.

We hope for a great Bond film and it never comes...We're frustrated but not glass-is-half-empty types. If you don't have high standards and can enjoy anyfilm with Mr. Bond in it than more power to you. I wish I could enjoy these films the same way...but I expect more. I expect adult audience targeted films with interesting and coherent plots, decent dialogue, believeble characters and action scenes and the action should always be in service to the story.I expect gadget technology to be consistent with contemporary or very near future tech or at least plausible. Invisible cars and genetic makeovers are way off the charts! They CAN do better!

#15 DanMan

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 09:29 PM

This is really starting to piss me off. The car wasn't invisible, it was camoflauged, and it's real. The US army has them!!!!! So stop whining about the car.

And about genetic makeovers... is it any more impossible than hollowed out volcanoes or a laser battle in space? It's a Bond movie. It's escapism. If you don't like it, then go watch a movie without imagination, like XXX.

#16 JimmyBond

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 11:50 PM

Oh goodie, now because I like DAD it means my expectations are lowered. Yep, keep rationalizing why we like the film. Grow up!

#17 Xenobia

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 01:48 AM

Folks...let's keep our tempers in check please, or I will honestly close this thread down.

-- Xenobia

#18 superracer0022

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 01:59 AM

If i only look at flaws then none of the bond films are great because they all had some sort of flaw somewhere, but i prefer to look at whats good, and i think DAD was great from beginning to end, i personally loved the end in the plane and that is my HONEST opinion

#19 B5Erik2

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 07:02 AM

Hmmm - kind of interesting how some people jumped all over one little word, one which wasn't really what I was grasping for anyway.

Honestly? I'm surprised that so many people missed my point.

If you aren't willing to see the flaws and point them out then you can't fix them. The CGI in DAD looks bad by 1994 standards. By 2002 standards it's AWFUL. The lack of stuntment doing the big stunts as in ALL of the previous Bond films is another flaw - using CGI instead made the film look generic and fake. That may not bother some people, but I've been following Bond for about 26 years now, and I expect the best.

I also expect a movie geared towards the 30-something crowd, not the 20-something crowd. Bond isn't a new trend - Bond is a 50 year old phenomenon! Don't exclude the older fans who MADE Bond a phenomenon. Treat them like they count.

Honestly? :) I LIKED DAD, but I expected better, and left feeling disappointed. I liked it a little more the second time, but was still disappointed. The flaws were glaring and kept snapping me out of that "suspension of disbelief." I no longer believed that the events on screen could happen. In previous Bond movies they actually had stuntmen do those things you saw on screen, so you could believe that it was real.

Again, my bad choice of words took this topic OFF topic, and for that I apologize. Hey, it was flawed - my fault. I'll work on that next time to make sure that my choice of words is better and more accurate to what my point is.

#20 JimmyBond

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 07:15 AM

I'm going to apologize too, specifically to you B5Erik2. We're both Bond fans, the thing I was getting upset at was the implication that I could'nt possibly like DAD, and was just lieing through my teeth when I say I like it, however, I still disagree with you:

If you aren't willing to see the flaws and point them out then you can't fix them.



I've said it before and I'll say it again, if they want to make Bond 21 in the same mold as DAD, I say go for it. I saw no flaws in DAD, and I don't feel anything needs correcting. Filmakinig techniques change, people are embracing new technology. To think that Bond films won't be employing more and more CGI in the future is rediculous, espeially when every other action movie out there is using it in spades. If Bond doesnt compete, it will lose, its that simple.

#21 brendan007

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 07:22 AM

To think that Bond films won't be employing more and more CGI in the future is rediculous, espeially when every other action movie out there is using it in spades. If Bond doesnt compete, it will lose, its that simple. [/B]


Even Lee Tamahori (who many fans blame for the increase in CGI for DAD) acknowledges that CGI could never fully take over in Bond films. He made some comment on the dvd about future bond films still needing to keep things as real as possible, but using CGI when needed. To quote Q "Its called the future so get used to it"

#22 JimmyBond

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 07:30 AM

I'm not suggesting that CGI should take over Bond, but I see no reason why it shouldnt pop up in future Bond outings. Stuff should still be done real, this I agree, CGI can be used for several things, like adding to a stunt, making it look a bit more dangerous than it is.

Take a look at the Rocket landing in YOLT, worst FX sequence ever (why people overlook that and complain about the parasurfing scene in DAD is beyond me) CGI could help that scene greatly (I'm not suggesting they go back and "fix" it, but if they did it today).

I also don't entirely agree with the "everything should be done for real" argument. I do think the stunts should be grounded in reality, but I see no reason that the filmakers can't employ CGI if the stunt is just too dangerous, maybe not do a CGI Bond again (CGI people is not exactly perfected at the moment), but again, I stress, CGI can be used to make a sequence better.

However, all this depends on the outfit that does the CGI, do not get Cinesite again, they are the problem, not the director.

#23 brendan007

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 07:34 AM

i agree with everything you said there JimmyBond, i probably didnt make myself clear enough sorry.

#24 B5Erik2

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 07:50 AM

Here's a HUGE flaw in DAD - the one liners sucked and were NOT funny (with only a couple of exceptions).

The dialogue in the movie was pretty weak throughout. It's like they had a couple 20 year olds writing it - there was no sophistication to it.

#25 brendan007

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 07:57 AM

ill agree with you there B5Erik2. but just because the one liners and dialogue were not up to my expectations for a bond film does not mean the film is terrible and has nothing to like in it. one flaw does not ruin a bond movie for me, and im being honest there.

#26 B5Erik2

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 08:14 AM

Hey, that's cool. For me, that was just one of many things.

Things like, from space if that satellite moves an inch while firing the ray moves several miles on the ground - Bond is toast, and having that ice car outrun that ray was ludicrous. The Car VS Car sequence was the most unwatchable car chase in Bond movie history - the editing was so poor that there was no flow and you couldn't follow the action. This ins't an MTV video, it's a Bond movie. Those are some examples.

That's why I said that there ARE flaws in DAD, and even if they didn't ruin the movie for you, you would have to admit that it could have been (even) better had they taken more time and care to avoid those flaws (which they could have).

If a schmoe like me can figure out things like these, then the people at EON sure can.

#27 BondNumber7

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 08:32 AM

Originally posted by B5Erik2
Come on, DAD was flawed, and anyone who is honest will admit that.


I loved the last half of the picture because the action was great and Iceland was a wonderful location. Am I being a dishonest jerk by saying that DAD had few, if no flaws? Some Bond pictures like TWINE and Octopussy have complicated plots and force the viewers to think. While others such as LALD or DAD are so simple you don't have to think while watching them. It's a matter of taste; whether you like the ones that are heavy on plot or light on plot. Bond films have had flaws from the beginning, but who cares? The series is terrific and all I want is to see Bond wear that tux, sip the martini, and say "my name is Bond, James Bond," and I'm happy. I would certainly sound like a complete creep if I said to someone, "If you tell me you like that Bond film than your just dishonest because it's a fact that the film is flawed and weak." Some may say DAD is flawed, but it is not something that can be proved as others might feel it is one of the stronger pictures. DAD doesn't have as strong of a story as TWINE, but I like it more because it is funner and does not have the greyness, bleakness, and darkness of TWINE. From Russia With Love is the only flawless Bond movie in my opinion, but the films do not have to be without flaws as all we Bond fans want is to have a jolly good time. I love DAD, but in the opinion of B5Erik2 I guess I'm not honest.

Oh and one more thing B5E. I love TMWTGG and I suppose that makes me even more dishonest. Right?

#28 B5Erik2

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 04:01 PM

No, but if you aren't willing to admit that it could have been better then you are fooling yourself. (And I'm pretty sure you'd be willing to admit that TMWTGG could have been better....)

Look, you made a really good point - DAD doesn't make you think. TWINE did.

Now, being the age that I am, and expecting as much as I do from Bond movies based on the rich history that the series has, I don't want a "dumbed down" Bond film that relies on absurd action pieces that make it look like a second rate xXx clone. I expect better than that. I DO want to have to think about the movie - at least a little!

I NEVER said that if you liked or even loved DAD that you were dishonest. What I implied was that if you weren't willing to admit that it could have been (even) better then you are either being dishonest or fooling yourself (or just don't aren't as discriminating).

I've taken film classes in college, including a screenwriting class, and I tend to be a little more demanding. Considering that several of the Bond films have exceeded my expectations in the past I don't think that I'm being too hard on DAD (which, again, I would rate a 7 out of 10 overall).

I don't think that there are many movies in the Bond series that couldn't have been even better than they were, but some sure couldn't have been much better. DAD just had more room for improvement than it should have (IMO). That bothers me - especially since it was supposed to be the "be all and end all" of Bond films to celebrate the 40th anniversary of Dr No.

#29 doublenoughtspy

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 04:26 PM

I agree with you Zencat that picking out flaws is easy, and that a film must be judged on its merits, not just its flaws.

However, when the flaws are so bad that fans are up in arms, and the review in Variety says that the CGI work goes against everything the series has stood for, it demonstrates that the flaw is significant.

TSWLM had a real stunt involving parachuting and a large snow covered cliff - why couldn't they get something similar for DAD?

Ocotpussy had a real stunt involving an airplane and people battling on it/on top of it - why couldn't they get something similar for DAD?

The snow cliff escape and the Anotov could have been done for real, but instead the producers decided to go the easy route.

The woman from the effects studio claimed the DAD para sailing scene took a year to complete - I think the money and time should have been devoted to something more realistic.

I don't hate CGI, and I know it will be used in more Bond films, but I hope to god it's done better than it was in DAD.

Computers have been used in Bond stunts since MWGG (car spiral jump planned on computer) - and I don't mind them being used to erase a wire holding a harness or something like that - but don't make the CGI the main part of the stunt - because as Variety said - that goes against everything the series has stood for.

#30 JimmyBond

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 06:43 PM

B5Erik2, I get where you're coming from man, but geez, quit while your ahead. You are not making yourself look good while constantly shouting:

That's why I said that there ARE flaws in DAD, and even if they didn't ruin the movie for you, you would have to admit that it could have been (even) better had they taken more time and care to avoid those flaws (which they could have).



Why do I have to admit to anything!? I admit I liked the film, and thought it was great. I SAW NO FLAWS!!! You hear that, to me the movie was perfect, get that through your head man! I liked DAD, and I liked the last half of the film, I even liked the ending on the plane. I wont admit to any flaws because I didnt see any!!

And about the age issue. Don't even start, thats like saying you're better than me cause you grew in the seventies. Well know what? I grew up in the eighties, first Bond film I saw was Living Daylights, followed by LTK, so that age argument is flawed.