46 replies to this topic

[Daltonitus]

You only need to read YOLT to see that

a) Bond wouldn't just leave and go off on a vendetta all by himself over a 'close' person...
...but that, should the opportunity arrive, he will relish every second of it.

It's not beyond bond, but they should have given him a mission template that he could have abused to end up avenging Felix, instead of making his own mission.

Of course, that's all provided you actually care.

Me? Hell I love LTK the way it is "stuff my orders!" (I know thats a TLD quote, but the seeds were set )

[Loomis]

I think LICENCE TO KILL is one of those films you either love or hate. And I also think that that's partly why fans like B5Erik2 and myself like it. It's what makes it a cult movie among the Bond adventures. You either "get it" or you don't.

But for every defence of the film, there will always be plenty of people coming back with the old chestnuts that it's an 80s relic, a "Miami Vice clone", a dark and gloomy affair with extreme gore to rival a NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET flick, etc. Then again, there are also those who think ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE sucks;).

To each his own. Some think Connery's the best Bond ever. Others prefer Moore. Some think Dalton gave the most faithful interpretation of Fleming's Bond. Others feel Brosnan is where it's at. And there are those who just want to read the novels and even a small, select group of people who wish Lazenby had gone on to do one more film. It's all Bond. It's all good.

[Loomis]

That said, Dalton truly rocks and LICENCE TO KILL is one of the most ****ing awesome Bond films ever!

[brendan007]

Originally posted by B5Erik2
Really, Bond wouldn't act the way they had hem act in LTK?  

Sure seems like the pre-credits sequence for DAF contradicts you there.

As far as we know, bond didnt negelct his current mission he was assigned to, he didnt resign from the secret service, he didnt stuff up an investigation into blofelds organisation that resulted in the deaths of those agents (i forget who they worked for in LTK, narcotics agency??). In DAF, bond went after blofeld, killed him (in theory) and then returned to work. He didnt run around like some lunatic stuffing up everything that resulted in the deaths of many innocent people. If he was able to do that after the death of his wife, i dont see how the death of lieiters wife would make him more angry.

[Loomis]

Maybe what Sanchez's goons did to Felix and Della made Bond see with full clarity, for the first time, what had been done to HIM by Blofeld and Bunt all those years previously. When people undergo traumatic experiences they tend to block out at least some of the horror as a way of coping. Maybe throwing himself into his work was his way of coping at the time, but now that so much time has passed, he finally snaps when a similar thing happens to his friend and he finds himself able to assume the role of avenger. With Felix and Della, Bond sees his own past ordeal from the outside, and recognises that both he and Felix were good hardworking spies who were not helped by their agencies when things went horribly wrong. This is why Bond is able to make the break with M and set out on a personal vendetta. Well, that's my theory on why Bond goes so ballistic in LICENCE TO KILL.

[Felix_Leiter]

Great job SeanValen00V! The more and more I watch LTK and TLD, the better they get. I think B5Erik2 put it brilliantly as well, "If you "get it," then you can't help but love the film.", I think this speaks for Dalton's performance as Bond in general. If you get it, then everything else kind of pales in comparison.

[Turn]

Why are those arguing against LTK using the deaths of the Hong Kong Narcotics agents as a point? Who says they wouldn't have been found out by Sanchez and died anyway? To paraphrase M said earlier in the film of Leiter "They knew the risks."

Bond in LTK is out to bring down very bad people and does so. In doing this, he saved others a lot of work and possibly more lives in his short time and did more than those two Chinese agents did in months.

[BONDFINESSE 007]

as a miami vice fan i had heard that on ltk there was a deleated scene that sonny crockett and tubbs were tailing bond, seems sanchez killed crockett's wife >on my version there is no deleated scene like that, does anyone know of this?

[_JW_]

Originally posted by Loomis
That said, Dalton truly rocks and LICENCE TO KILL is one of the most ****ing awesome Bond films ever!

One of the most awesome Bonds?

It IS the most awesome Bond film ever!

[Dr Noah]

"Some think Dalton gave the most faithful interpretation of Fleming's Bond"

Dalton's Bond in LTK is perhaps the anti-Fleming Bond...Flemming's Bond would never behave like that berk. He was a professional, something that the character lacks in the movie. Bond should have faced a court-martial for his actions or at the very least have his 00 number taken away and be given an early retirement.

As Admiralm Billings (M) said, "This is not a country club".

[B5Erik2]

I disagree. Bond in LTK behaves much like Fleming's Bond would have under the same circumstances. We'll never know what Fleming would have thought of LTK, but I'm pretty sure he would have preferred it to the cartoonishness of MR or even the last 45 minutes of DAD.

Fleming's Bond was rooted in reality. Bond may have been able to do many things that put him on the edge of reality, but it was reality based. LTK is totally reality based. Bond is not Superman. He isn't so cold that he doesn't have feelings. The circumstances that he faces in LTK are VERY extreme, and reflect the one of the greatest tragedies of his life. His reaction is very understandable - even for a professional.

I don't think Bond would have been court martialed, by the way, since he single handedly brought down one of the worlds biggest drug lords. He might have been reprimanded, and had that put in his permanent files (which would have made promotion more difficult), but the results of his "rogue" mission would have mitigated his temporarily leaving MI6 and going AWOL.

[Dr Noah]

"I don't think Bond would have been court martialed, by the way, since he single handedly brought down one of the worlds biggest drug lords"

Bond disobeyed a direct order, assualted his fellow agents, mocked up a SIS operation which lead to several operatives being murdered and a long-running operation ruined...Yes, he did stop a drug lord...but that drug lord had nothing to do with the SIS and if we are being adult and realestic about this, M and his superiors wouldn't care if Sachez lived or died.

"Bond in LTK behaves much like Fleming's Bond would have under the same circumstances"

Surely only Ian Fleming would know that?

I can only base my view of Fleming's Bond on Flemings books and Bond's actions in LTK doesn't ring true.

[B5Erik2]

Again, I don't agree - the Bond of Fleming's novels pushed over the edge like that, in my opionion, would behave exactly like Bond did in LTK.

And the CIA/DEA would have pulled strings to make sure that Bond didn't get court martialed. He was too strong of an ally for them just to let him get drummed out of the service or thrown in prison, so they would have done everything possible to exert pressure on MI6 to keep him. M would have let him back, too, because Bond is the best agent that he's got. You don't just throw a resource like that away - you can't afford to in the espionage business.

Like I said, he'd be reprimanded, and would probably never get promoted very far - but they'd continue to use him as long as he was effective in the field. And he did "resign," so that direct order wouldn't exactly be binding anyway (he's not a slave or a prisoner, so he does have the right to resign).

This is all another reason why LTK is so great - you can really analyze the movie and there are so many layers of subtext and so much depth to the motivations for the characters that it has been debated for 14 years now. Very few Bond movies have that kind of depth.

[Jriv71]

Originally posted by Dr Noah

Dalton's Bond in LTK is perhaps the anti-Fleming Bond...'Flemmings Bond would never behave like that berk.  He was a professional, something that the character lacks in the movie.  Bond should have faced a court-martial for his actions or at the very least have his 00 number taken away and be given an early retirement.

Fleming's M had Bond on personal vendettas for himself (M) in For Your Eyes Only, and to a degree in Moonraker, to find out if Drax was a cheat. Why would he have Bond court-martialed?

And what's a Berk?

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by B5Erik2
.
Bond is a human being.  He has feelings and emotions.  His wife was murdered by his nemesis.  Bond's best friend, Felix Leiter, was maimed by HIS nemesis and his wife was raped and murdered at the instructions of that nemesis.  
Just like he went berzerk going after Blofeld at the beginning of DAF, Bond went berzerk going after Sanchez in LTK.  Hell, he was actually a bit cooler in going after Sanchez.  He was a little more hotheaded when going after Blofeld - so he's right in character in LTK, he just has a different motivation than usual.
I grew up on Roger Moore's Bond films, but I much prefer a more realistic approach - that's why Bond films like LTK, FRWL, TLD, FYEO, etc, are my favorites.  I like all of the Bond films, but the more serious and realistic films are the ones I like best.

THe Moore film did not have any thing in common with the Connery films except James Bond's name was used. When did Bond got "berzerk" in DAF whiel going after Blofeld. Charles Gray 's Blofeld and Connery's Bond acted as if they were at a reunion for the class at ETON . Very english and what have you . In fact i think of Noel Coward whenever Gray speaks!! I thought "LTK", was a very serious film. A continuation of the trend begun in "TLD" . This was the first film that was written for Dalton where as "TLD" was for Moore /Brosnan a action-comedy. Again "LTK" is the forerunner to the Bond that Brosnan presents . Realistic , Human a man in a dangerous profession . would lives life on the edge. "LTK was the first film that did not feature a "larger than life villian" or a "cold war plot. Since was during the period that brought about the end of the soviet union. It was also verty topically , drug was a major problem in the USA. And the personal motive was excellent , Felix Leiter is the most underuse Bond character. In fact there is more on him in "Literary Bond" than on Moneypenny or "Q" . Here is someone who is Bond equal (remember he is CIA) , yet in films is either his "father" or just a sidekick. This is a good , but underrated film.

[B5Erik2]

Bond went berzerk while looking for Blofeld, beating up guys in casinos, strangling that woman with her bikini top - much more aggressive than he was in LTK.

LTK did set up the Brosnan Bond, but Brosnan's Bond does have touches of Moore's. It's lighter than Dalton, but much better than the cartoonishness of some of Moore's films (except the last 45 minutes of DAD which could have been part of a Moore Bond film).

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by B5Erik2
Bond went berzerk while looking for Blofeld, beating up guys in casinos, strangling that woman with her bikini top - much more aggressive than he was in LTK.
LTK did set up the Brosnan Bond, but Brosnan's Bond does have touches of Moore's.  It's lighter than Dalton, but much better than the cartoonishness of some of Moore's films (except the last 45 minutes of DAD which could have been part of a Moore Bond film).

The touches of Moore is that Brosnan is not a "leaden" as some will have you believe Dalton was. Dalton just had a "smirk" on his face when he made a "pun" . Where Moore had a spankle in his eyes. Dalton "would " have lighten up by his third Bond film. Also look at "John Glen" hack direction as part of the problem. Bond did not go "berzerk" while looking foe Blofeld/Noel Coward of Charles Gray. In DAF there is no know relationship to OHMSS . If one was not a Bond fan and saw both film "out of order" , one would have no idea as too what Bond was doing . There is no connection between the 2 films. In DAF Bond just looks like he is on a normal assignment. Blofeld happens to be the target. No effort is made during DAF , as to why Bond in the pre-title is hunting for Blofeld. No mention is made of the previous film . And with happen at the end to "Tracy" . Connery in his best automatic pilot mode. Make no attempt to tie the two DAF/OHMSS together . The only thing the 2 film have in common is 2 characters name Bond and the other Blofeld.