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The PRO LTK-ers Club!


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#61 1q2w3e4r

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Posted 04 January 2003 - 10:11 PM

This one goes out to Sir James again. (Its from the first page, i think you might have missed it.) :)


To "Sir James" forgive me for generalising, which is what Im about to do. But have you read Fleming's novels? The American influence you speak of is an underlyling tone throughout any of Fleming's novels set in America. Raymond Chandler went so far as to say Diamond's Are Forever read as if it was written by an American and he was unaware of any other writer capable of adapting the influences and cultures of other countries to his stories so well.

The further point that LTK lacks class because it contains swearing and overall gorrness I can't help but totally disagree with. LTK borrows heavily from Fleming's novel Live And Let Die. The shark sequence involving Felix and the "he disagreed with something that ate him" are pulled straight from Fleming's novel. As is Bond's fight in the warehouse and his feeding to the shark of "the robber" (in the novel) and Leiter's pal in LTK.

The novels and Fleming's view further point toward what was said above by the amount of physical pain OO7 is put in, and the use of swearing in Fleming's novels. It's usually handled with the gentlemanly attitude of a Scottish gentleman but it's there. Bond tells Drax in Moonraker to "go ---- yourself." Which Drax responds, "even I am not capable of that."
He spit's out "a four letter word" quite frequently and cannot under stand how Tiger in You Only Live Twice can make it through the day without his barrage of offensive words (Tiger told Bond there were no swear words in the Japanese language) and OO7 is kind enough to point out "Freddie Uncle Charlie Kate". Or something simular to it as an example. So I'd say LTK accuratly portrays the spirit of Fleming's blunt government instrument


"LTK has no class and style," I think I've answered this above, but give John Glen 120 million+ and see what he comes up with. Better still, give LT and the DAD crew 32 million.

If licence to kill doesn't symbolise Bond being disguisted and revolted at the world he is surrounded in I don't know what does. Dalton brings a real world edge to it and it does affect him, look at the shark tank scene and Felix's "He disagreed with something that ate him."

"He is also able to still enjoy the finer things, and still act like Bond."
I think most people in generally can enjoy ten year old Tattinger or Krug or Bollanger in exotic surroundings and see themselves as Bond :) Let alone the guy playing him.

"But he dons the tux becuase its many layers prevent that "weak" 007 from showing. The trick to a good Bond is to have him show you that tux while never taking it off. In other words, bringing you into the darkness of his inner real self, while still mantaining the suave, smooth, and charming 007 front."

I think you nail it here. Really, the difference between Dalton and Brosnan. I think your looking a little to symbolic at Brosnan's tux, it was just a tux no three piece. Dalton's Bond doesn't hide behind his clothing, he's at his most dangerous when he's challanged and in danger, as is Fleming's Bond and we see this on screen in Doctor No.
By this I mean Connery in the "torture chamber." And Bond beaten and wrecked at the end of LTK.

I just don't see the symbolism behind it. Maybe if he put it on as soon as arriving in Hong Kong, but I myself think its a bit of a stretch, maybe others make the connection?

"Dalton could just never get the hang of this, and neither does LTK, which is why the film suffers for it."

I myself don't see why Bond needs to wear a tux every single movie, but anyway eh.

I think the point a lot of people are making is that licence to kill works on many levels because its a great film, has a good story, the action doesn't remove the plot, the characters are developed, it borrows HEAVILY from Fleming's previous novels and there is depth and subtext in the characters and story, something absent from the second hour of DAD.

#62 RITZ

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 11:36 PM

B5Erik2 - This club can be part of The Dalton-Bond Community :)

Lets keep this thread going amongst LTK fans :)

#63 B5Erik2

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 01:18 AM

We are all fans of the true Fleming Bond - Timothy Dalton.

LTK is the standard that I hold all the current Bond movies up to. None have matched it - unfortunately. DAD was very promising for about 75 minutes or so - it even seemed like a follow up to LTK, but then we got the cartoon stuff....

#64 SeanValen00V

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 01:32 AM

I'm in.
I did a topic on the continuous appeal of LTK for me over the years:

http://forums.comman...=&threadid=7322




Dalton's Bond and Robert Davi, great mirror images of each, straight to the heart of Flemming's Casino Royale, which both actors read to add to their roles. They had great chemistry, I like the fact in the beginning, which I just enjoyed for the action before, but now I see it totally differently, both Bond and the villian get contrasted in the beginning, and have their own scenes, yet they don't meet then, lucky for Bond who has to go undercover later. Then Bond plays Mind games with him, and within those mind games, he turns Sanchez against Crest, and Bond just looks on as he kills him, great story telling, very fresh, and we get Sanchez for a while treating Bond like his friend, the two life styles get contrasted, then like the beginning, its good against evil again towards the end. Thats what I like about Dalton's Bond and Davi's Sanchez, and when Sanchez finds out Bond is against him, no time to talk, they've done that, straight to coveyor belt, no sitting around and having drinks before you get killed, they've done that earlier when we saw them getting along, that I find more realistic.


Also I used to think Bond was after Sanchez soley because of Felix, but I kept forgetting about Dela, because the whole murdering of Dela, was a reminder of Tracy's death, so now is Bond getting Sanchez soley because of Felix, or because in Felix he see's himself, when he lost Tracy in OHMSS, now he feels he owes it to Lighter to get Sanchez, maybe not just friendship, but another villian has taken away the bride. Seen LTK many times, but I've never thought about the story the same ways when I used to watch it, which makes LTK a great character study on Bond's motivation.

The film continues to date well, because of this fantastic blending of Bond's motivations, and chemisty with Sanchez, and action scenes like water skying that has a rebound effect when Sanchez confronts Crest.

It's not a film I understood the way I do now 10 years ago, and I used to watch the film quite alot in the early 90s before Goldeneye, and was the most recent Bond film, but in repeat viewing, there's so much to enjoy again, excellent.


TLD and LTK are so different, that with 2 Bond films, Dalton offered alot more then say what Roger did with 7 films, 100% record for Dalton in my book.
That scene when Bond walks in to find Dela dead, with Bond's reaction with his eyes moving back and forth, always found it dramatic, but now it's even more going in James head in that point, Tracy flashback, who knows, then walks over to what should be a dead Felix, those scenes I rate the strongest acted scenes for Bond in the series-Dalton's finest moment, doing what he does best, probably more to the liking of Bond purists/flemming purists, before I didn't look at it the same way.

#65 Daltonitus

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 01:42 AM

Going back to the whole tux thing, Bond (no matter which film or actor) only wears one when it's proper (Eg in a casino) or when he already had one on and was thrust into the action (sniping in TLD/LTK and when he is escaping the Soviets after interrogation as he was captured wearing it).

It is a myth that Bond always wears one, certainly he doesn't in the novels and not even in the films does he wear one needlessly.

So Tim Dalton likes to wear late 80s/early 90s style 'smart casuals' woah...bond must be 'out of time', silly them, they should have given him a Green Bently and a Beretta and made him wear only out of date suits - the best way to appeal to the current generation...

#66 1q2w3e4r

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 11:00 PM

It's funny. Because apart from Connery who was considered quite flashy in his suits as Bond. Fleming always stated that Bond wore simply suits of dark blue or grey that weren't overly excessive such as Broni suits Brosnan wears.

Still Connery's look in Thunberball and From Russia With Love nails Bond's dress sense.

#67 Dr Noah

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Posted 10 February 2003 - 10:04 AM

It always suprises me that people like this movie, it has got quite a few faluts :-

01) Bond has been "Americanised", turned into a genric American action hero, often the only thing that is different between LTK and a Chick Norris vehicle is the budget.

02) Possibly the worst set of locations in any Bond movie. No sense of scale or movement.

03) "Bond shouldn't be so damn funereal. There should have been more humor". Who said that? None other than Richard Maibum.

04) The movie lacks the escapisim that the other movies (and books) had in abundance. Rape (even if its impleid) should never be in a Bond movie.

05) It is also possibly the dullest Bond movie that I have seen. Dalton and co seem bored with it all.

The only times the movie comes to life is when "Q" is on the scene (which, oddly enough, is the only times when it feels like Bond)

#68 B5Erik2

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Posted 10 February 2003 - 04:21 PM

And you joined this thread because.....???

By the way - application for joining the Pro LTK-ers club: Denied.

:)

#69 Dr Noah

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Posted 10 February 2003 - 04:36 PM

"And you joined this thread because.....

.... my bad side is a dangerous place to be???

:)

#70 Daltonitus

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Posted 10 February 2003 - 10:29 PM

Touche Dr Noah, lol.

But I think, whilst you might have valid points compared to the other bond films, the whole point of LTK was to be something different, something gritty.

It wasn't mean to be jolly old Bond going on a happy little mission with all the cares of the world gone and only sex and martinis too look forward too.

Like others have said - you either 'get it' or you don't, and you clearly do not.

#71 Jriv71

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Posted 11 February 2003 - 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Dr Noah
04)  Rape (even if its implied) should never be in a Bond movie.


Oh, you mean like in Goldfinger when Bond FORCES Pussy to kiss him and have a roll in the hay???

#72 Daltonitus

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Posted 12 February 2003 - 12:56 AM

That whole reply sounds dirtier than it should lol.

But you have a point, Connery rapes loads of women in the old Bonds.

#73 Dr Noah

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Posted 12 February 2003 - 05:36 PM

"But you have a point, Connery rapes loads of women in the old Bonds"

No wonder Dalton looks cheesed off then, all he gets in this movie is longing looks from Robert Davi.. :)

#74 Honey Rider

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Posted 12 February 2003 - 05:56 PM

Good Work! There should be a club for each movie...

#75 Daltonitus

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Posted 12 February 2003 - 10:33 PM

But some films aren't good enough to have clubs. Unless it was the 'Shoot fans of Christmas Jones' club. I would sign up to that in a heartbeat :)

#76 WaltherPPK

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Posted 13 February 2003 - 03:36 AM

I am pro-LTK. I would say that LTK is my favorite out of the whole Bond collection, and then TLD is the next.

#77 brendan007

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Posted 13 February 2003 - 12:23 PM

Originally posted by Daltonitus
But some films aren't good enough to have clubs. Unless it was the 'Shoot fans of Christmas Jones' club. I would sign up to that in a heartbeat :)


im right here, take your best shot :)

#78 _JW_

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Posted 14 February 2003 - 07:58 PM

Hey, I'm pro-LTK too!

#79 RITZ

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Posted 14 February 2003 - 09:58 PM

Welcome to the club _JW_

And welcome to CBN